CD vs Vinyl sound
Comments
-
hearingimpared wrote: »......and is spectacular.
Yes, the 45RPM FBR is spectacular! I also have the original release and CD, there is no contest! That 45RPM release was played on Larry's (analog97) and Carl's rigs and they were amazed. Larry had the original release; not sure about Carl but he is also a Jennifer Warnes fan.
I do prefer The Ballad Of The Runaway Horse with Rob Wasserman on bass versus Dave Stone. You have to buy Duet's to get that. I have Duet's on 180 gram vinyl and the CD. Guess which one I like better?:D Duet's on vinyl is long out of print and fetches big bucks. The CD is also very well recorded. It also has one of my a fav versions of Over The Rainbow with StSalk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
+1 for Aja! Anyway, great debate here. It sounds like it all comes down to personal preferance.
One question however. What is a "redbook" CD?SCompRacer wrote: »In a subjective hobby, most definitely. Opinions are great, but the best course of action is to listen and decide for yourself.
I grew up with vinyl and was never out of it. I like my digital too. Most folks that come over prefer the vinyl.
No truer words were ever stated.
E.g., I've had Jesse here a number of times who is, let's just say, not enamored with vinyl. I've played a number of LPs for him and he's said, "Wow I'm hearing what I hear on my rig with SACDs." On other LPs he said they sounded lousy. I've been to Jesse's and heard redbook & SACD on his fabulous rig and walked away thinking about getting rid of my vinyl rig and using the funds to buy a very high end CD/SACD player, until I got home that is.
It really is a matter of personal preference and the quality of the gear the medium is played. I just have it stuck in my mind that the way our ears work (analog) and the way our brains process what goes in our ears that vinyl is the more natural sounding of the mediums. I think what got me so stuck on vinyl is that I was victim to the first CD players (my first was an NAD) and CDs that came out they just didn't sound right to me. The only saving grace to them back then was the dead silence thus the illusion of an extremely high dynamic range.
Since then I've heard almost every format that has come out. I still stick to vinyl being my first love but there is really something to be said about well recorded CDs. I've already stated my opinion of SACD. However I must admit that the amount of money spent on my analog rig, in every aspect, doesn't give my $3k CDP or my (originally $1k) SACD player a far shake. Hell my cartridge alone cost more than my CDP so that gives you some insight as to how important the quality of gear is to enjoy whatever medium you prefer. -
SCompRacer wrote: »Yes, the 45RPM FBR is spectacular! I also have the original release and CD, there is no contest! That 45RPM release was played on Larry's (analog97) and Carl's rigs and they were amazed. Larry had the original release; not sure about Carl but he is also a Jennifer Warnes fan.
I do prefer The Ballad Of The Runaway Horse with Rob Wasserman on bass versus Dave Stone. You have to buy Duet's to get that. I have Duet's on 180 gram vinyl and the CD. Guess which one I like better?:D Duet's on vinyl is long out of print and fetches big bucks. The CD is also very well recorded. It also has one of my a fav versions of Over The Rainbow with St -
Hokay.....
There are WAY too many variables to make a hard and fast rule.....a lot depends on the recording and a lot depends on the gear.
For example, if you've got a really well done, high end, CD player.....it will sound better than a cheapie turntable or SACD player. A truly well done vinyl front end is, IMO, substantially more expensive than a digital one.
Now, let's say, as I would say that I do, have a digital and vinyl front end that are about equal. Well, then it depends on the recording. I've got some stuff that sounds better digitally and I've got some stuff that sounds better on analog.....probably the BEST sounding piece I have is a standard CD. It's a live, uncompressed, recording of an ensemble playing Vivaldi's Four Seasons. Again, there are too many variables.
Now, that said, all things being equal, yes, it is not difficult to tell the difference between a CD and SACD. I'll use Dire Straits BIA as an example. I have it on CD, SACD, and two different versions on vinyl. The difference between the CD and the SACD is VERY obvious. If you can't discern, either you can't hear or your gear isn't up to snuff. Now, the latest vinyl is right there with the SACD....the LP has a bit more warmth but doesn't have the ultimate dynamics. The older pressing lags behind in third place. If you listen carefully, you can hear the difference. In this case, I'm going with the LP version.
Now, lets take DSOTM. I'm going with the SACD...it's superior, IMO, to all other versions digital and vinyl to include the latest reissue and the MOFI pressing. I don't know about the MOFI UHQR as I've never heard it.
Point being, there are a LOT of variables to come out with a hard and fast X is better than Y.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
Very well said Troy and I am in full agreement which supports my post above. You are correct about DSOTM. However I had the UHQR of DSOTM before it was stolen (smart thieves) and it is as my old brain failing memory recalls is the best I've ever heard. I have several vinyl copies of the various new releases of DSOTM on heavy vinyl and I truly think SACD eeks out every bit of dynamics and lends more weight to the music.
-
mhardy6647 wrote: »No idea; found it at the dump last week. It's pretty old (and very cheesy - the post was meant ironically!); it works though. Model number is CD-40 (but there was another, nicer, later Marantz single CDP called "CD-40" as well).
The STA-52 it sits astride was also a dump find.
In terms of CD, vinyl, tape, hi-res digital, lo-res digital, etc... it's all good. It's all good.
The CD player is cool though. The Realistic however.......Seriously, I had a 1970 vintage Sansui 4000 I miss. It finally fried about 15 years ago.Things are more like they are now than they ever will be! -
To Hearingimpared last post, I am with you on the sound of the earlier CDs. Two of my oldest "pressings" CDs (Heart (self titled) and Hotel California) have a very annoying harshness to them (especially Heart). A few others are not far behind. The newer ones have seemed to mellow out a bit.Things are more like they are now than they ever will be!
-
To Hearingimpared last post, I am with you on the sound of the earlier CDs. Two of my oldest "pressings" CDs (Heart (self titled) and Hotel California) have a very annoying harshness to them (especially Heart). A few others are not far behind. The newer ones have seemed to mellow out a bit.
I have to admit even as a vinyl junkie that CDs and digital reproduction has come a loooooooooooooooong way and sounds very good these days compared to even 5 years ago. -
Why didn't they make CDs sound as good as vinyl, or better, right off the bat? No punn intended but, it sounds funny to me!Things are more like they are now than they ever will be!
-
Why didn't they make CDs sound as good as vinyl, or better, right off the bat? No punn intended but, it sounds funny to me!
Obviously you haven't read all the replys in this thread. I'll say it again, some CD's can and do sound better than their vinyl counterparts and some visa versa. It's not so much about the medium as it is about the mastering/transfer, etc. Then it comes down to the gear you own. A $300 TT with $100 cartridge played thru a $200 phono pre-amp won't win out over a middle of the road cdp.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Why didn't they make CDs sound as good as vinyl, or better, right off the bat? No punn intended but, it sounds funny to me!
Think about the computer/digital technology that was available in the early 1980s. It's a wonder that they work as well as they do; as H9 said, a well-done redbook CD can sound astonishingly good.
For some examples, sample (no pun intended) The Wailin Jennys, e.g., http://www.thewailinjennys.com/ -
mhardy6647 wrote: »Think about the computer/digital technology that was available in the early 1980s. It's a wonder that they work as well as they do; as H9 said, a well-done redbook CD can sound astonishingly good.
I think the technolgies involved with the development of CD went as far back as the mid 70s. -
I think the technolgies involved with the development of CD went as far back as the mid 70s.
Thanks. I wouldn't be at all surprised; the horsepower available for D to A conversion, processor speeds, etc. would have to have been pretty rudimentary in terms of hardware and approaches to meet the Philips/Sony redbook standard. It's instructive to look at the guts of an early CDP and compare to one made just a few years later; custom really-large-scale ICs were (apparently) quickly developed and pressed into service to cut costs and (maybe even) improve performance.
Anyway... I find many CDs perfectly satisfactory and satisfying for critical listening. Still a record player on the living room hifi, though. R2R tape decks, too. -
I think the technolgies involved with the development of CD went as far back as the mid 70s.
Yep and they were doing lots with digital on vinyl in the mid '70s too. I have quite a few digital LPs and they sound damn good but that's as far as go there.:D I have a couple of DSD LPs, one that comes to mind is the Rolling Stones, "Let it Bleed." It sounds like an SACD. When I A/B the DSD version vs. the analog version I hear the same differences that I do between an SACD and vinyl. -
Seems like vinyl people always want to bash CD people. If you like vinyl, good for you. I've compared CD recordings to the vinyl version of the same recordings and I don't feel like I'm missing much if anything sticking with CD. To be honest, I felt the CD version sounded better. I preferred the slightly more forward, less warm sound. But regardless of the sound quality of vinyl, it's very possible to get superb sound from redbook CDs. The convenience of the CD over vinyl is more than enough reason for me to stick with CD.
The other issue is that digital music is the future and delivery mechanisms for digital music is going to just keep getting better. The music server/streamers of the future will offer unlimited selection and convenience. You will miss all that with vinyl. For me to ignore digital and use vinyl, the difference would have to be way way more obvious than it actually is.
It's not bashing. The sound is better on LP, but with more background noise
from the LP surface. I was at a high end shop on a quiet Sunday afternoon
and a guy came in behind me with a stack of LP's and CD's. They set them up
with an external phono stage into a great CJ system and a pair of dynaudio's.
They balanced the levels and A/B'ed.There was only one CD remaster that
sounded better than vinyl.
CD's do suck, but SACD and other newer formats are a much better format
and capable of great sound. The problem is modern sound engineers are pretty
much a poor lot. There aren't enough good recordings and they are too pricey
too catch on. The newer formats would need a good sound guy
to make them sound better, but that normally doesn't happen.
I myself left vinyl and have converted my CD's to FLAC. This makes me
a total heathen, and I'm sure a lynch mob is forming as I type this."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
^^^we are standing outside with torches and pitchforks right about..........
NOW!:D:D:p;)The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
nooshinjohn wrote: »^^^we are standing outside with torches and pitchforks right about..........
NOW!:D:D:p;)
You'll have to get in line with all the angry customers. I have been P*ssing
off people all week, and I'm working most of the weekend. How's
a angry tar and feathering at 4:00pm Sunday sound?"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson -
too late in the day form me...The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Obviously you haven't read all the replys in this thread. I'll say it again, some CD's can and do sound better than their vinyl counterparts and some visa versa. It's not so much about the medium as it is about the mastering/transfer, etc. Then it comes down to the gear you own. A $300 TT with $100 cartridge played thru a $200 phono pre-amp won't win out over a middle of the road cdp.
H9
I did read them all. I am refering to ALL CDs. Not just a few here and there. But yes, there are too many variables involved.Things are more like they are now than they ever will be! -
Why didn't they make CDs sound as good as vinyl, or better, right off the bat?
They did.I did read them all. I am refering to ALL CDs. Not just a few here and there.
You seem to have a misconception about CD's, seemingly based off of two that you own. If you think that vinyl inherently sounds better than CD's you are sadly mistaken as nothing could be farther from the truth. If anything, the early CDP's lacked the technology to extract the best sound from CD's. That is not the case today.
What are using for your CDP?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
They did.
You seem to have a misconception about CD's, seemingly based off of two that you own. If you think that vinyl inherently sounds better than CD's you are sadly mistaken as nothing could be farther from the truth.
Yikes!If anything, the early CDP's lacked the technology to extract the best sound from CD's. That is not the case today.
Agreed as stated above. I know you weren't speaking to me Jess but I had to reply to at least the first statement.:p;) -
You seem to have a misconception about CD's, seemingly based off of two that you own. If you think that vinyl inherently sounds better than CD's you are sadly mistaken as nothing could be farther from the truth. If anything, the early CDP's lacked the technology to extract the best sound from CD's. That is not the case today.
First off let me say I do absolutely agree with the last part of what you said Jesse. To my ears though, tonally I have to say that a record will blow away a CD. Not even a contest. Granted I have not heard a $17,000 CD player before so my basis of comparison may be limited. I just find that it is impossible (from what I have heard in my 22 years of serious music listening)for a digital source to compete with a record from a tonal perspective.
Now understand, I respect the things you say Jesse. Actually you are one of the few people I basically never disagree with. You probably have a good 10 years of music listening, tweeking and general upgrading of equipment experience on me. But, I have to call it as I hear it.
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
...damn; all I brought was a shovel....TNRabbit
NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
Sunfire TG-IV
Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
Carver AL-III Speakers
Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer -
I've never had to get up and turn over a CD.
And since moving to digital... I don't ever have to get up! But, at least with vinyl I got a little exercise.
-
mdaudioguy wrote: »I've never had to get up and turn over a CD.
And since moving to digital... I don't ever have to get up! But, at least with vinyl I got a little exercise.
. . . and with vinyl tend not to skip over music because you didn't think it was any good, only to find out that it was indeed very good.:D;) -
hearingimpared wrote: »
Since then I've heard almost every format that has come out. I still stick to vinyl being my first love but there is really something to be said about well recorded CDs. I've already stated my opinion of SACD. However I must admit that the amount of money spent on my analog rig, in every aspect, doesn't give my $3k CDP or my (originally $1k) SACD player a far shake. Hell my cartridge alone cost more than my CDP so that gives you some insight as to how important the quality of gear is to enjoy whatever medium you prefer.
I think this is worth repeating. Because if that much of an investment is needed for vinyl....then that's definitely an important part of this argument.
It is a little hard to believe what vinyl aficionados dish out for their equipment. And often beyond the reach of most of us.
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
so since cd gear costs less then it has better sound, of course not, the question was one vs another, cost valuation has nothing to do with SQ of one format vs another, I am though am not buying into needing thousands for a decent TT rig.
Rega, Project, Music Hall, all have quality TT's for very little investment, certainly not out of reach, they also build some hi-end tables if that is what someone wants.
I choose both, at least for now, the only regular member I can think of who is just vinyl is Chuck, so it seems the regular two channel members like both formats and enjoy getting their groove on with each. I would though say that vinyl posseses the greatest potential for SQ of the two formats. Since the format is better it would follow that you would need less expensive gear to get the sound, well, one could say that, but it is unlikely anyone is going to change their mind based on this forum and its guru's.
RT1 -
First off let me say I do absolutely agree with the last part of what you said Jesse. To my ears though, tonally I have to say that a record will blow away a CD. Not even a contest. Granted I have not heard a $17,000 CD player before so my basis of comparison may be limited. I just find that it is impossible (from what I have heard in my 22 years of serious music listening)for a digital source to compete with a record from a tonal perspective.
Now understand, I respect the things you say Jesse. Actually you are one of the few people I basically never disagree with. You probably have a good 10 years of music listening, tweeking and general upgrading of equipment experience on me. But, I have to call it as I hear it.
Greg
Greg,
I'm all about tone, it's the first thing I listen for. Therefore, I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.
No problem here, I have the utmost respect for you and hope you can make it to PF this year, I'll buy you a root beer.
JessePolitical Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Greg,
I'm all about tone, it's the first thing I listen for. Therefore, I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.
No problem here, I have the utmost respect for you and hope you can make it to PF this year, I'll buy you a root beer.
Jesse
OK Jesse! I hope I can make to PF. Maybe we could have a "tone-off".:) You could play some CDs and I'll play some vinyl of some highly tonal music. I will even put some of that root beer on the vinyl to keep the pops and clicks to a minimum for ya.:p:p:D:D
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
It's a crime to waste good root beer. Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
