Having Car Issues. Help?

Jstas

mhmacw wrote: »

those pic are well and good if you change the plugs on a regular basis and have a clean running engine monitored for air fuel mixture. though they are informative they arent always indicative. it is acceptable to compare plugs to a chart if there isnt a radicle problem afoot. this guy didnt say hes a half quart low at oil changes. he said hes lost 1 quart and a half in 370 miles. thats not applicable to a chart. you may as well pour it into the intake at that rate. oil in that volume would foul plugs and the cylinder would burn cold if it had a lower fuel pressure/volume being delivered compounding the problem of the oil not being burnd up. when oil is introduced to the combustion chamber it fouls plugs it doesnt make the cylinder burn hot.

Maybe you should read my post for my explanation of what I believe is going on.

mhmacw

i read it. i just do nt agree that a quart and a half in 370 miles would do anything besides BLACKEN a plug. yes over a long period of time and a wisp of oil now and then you would get deposits on the plugs. this is neither a long period of time nor a wisp of oil. if this engins is consuming iol at that rate its not being burnt in the cylinders.

concealer404

Buddy, he explained WHY it could possibly cause a lean condition and turn the plugs white. Jstas and i don't see eye to eye on many things, but this isn't the case in this situation.

I have a car that does turn the plugs white, because it DOES consume oil at a pretty rapid rate, due to completely destroyed valve seals. I haven't fixed it because it's a $700 car, and i really don't care enough.

mhmacw

as with anything else opinions are what they are.

concealer404

mhmacw wrote: »

as with anything else opinions are what they are.

'Fraid i don't quite follow.

Why are my plugs white, then? You say they should be black.

heiney9

Jon is correct, and it's pretty damn good opinion and diagnosis. Certainly a whole lot better than the OP got from the dealer. If it were me, I'd start with Jon's diagnosis and go forward.

H9

tryrrthg

Jstas wrote: »

By the way, tryrrthg, even though they are very white (might be the lighting making it seem more white), deposits like that are due to oil being burned in the combustion chamber. The electrode wear is due to a lean condition. If your engine is burning oil, then the computer is going to back off fuel pressure because the O2 sensor is picking up excessive hydrocarbons in the exhaust stream. The lack of fuel will make what is in there oxygen rich. That cause the chamber environment to burn very hot. With less fuel, the oil leakage will burn off to the point where it is not noticeable in the exhaust. But oil burns hotter than gas, just not as violently which is why the deposits form.

I would bet that you are burning oil and that the computer is picking it up and compensating thereby causing a lack of fuel to make a lean condition. But that plug is not normal. Also, that extra plug gap makes the plug inefficient which causes fuel to not burn completely and that also contributes to excessive depositing on the plug and electrode wear.


This is normal wear:



This is wear on a plug that is too old:



This is wear and deposits on a plug that is burning oil and/or coolant:



That 3rd picture looks most like what you have there in your picture, don'tcha think?

Ok, lets say you're right. what kind of repair am I looking at and most importantly how much is it gonna cost me?

also, am I ok driving it for that 1000 miles or do I just go find another place to take it?

mhmacw

if you drive 370 miles and your engine puts 1.5 quarts of oi through the cylinders during that time the plugs will be wet with iol.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/engine/plugs.html

note the descriptions... oil fouled/ EXCESSIVE oil entering the chamber

ash fouled/ build up of deposits due to oil and additives during NORMAL COMBUSTION

if any one here belives 1.5 quarts of oil in 370 miles is NORMAL then i just dont know what to tell ya...

mhmacw

heiney9 wrote: »

Jon is correct, and it's pretty damn good opinion and diagnosis. Certainly a whole lot better than the OP got from the dealer. If it were me, I'd start with Jon's diagnosis and go forward.

H9

what is your experience that could validate your opinion?

please tell me you have built a few dozen engines or something relavent like that. and not because "he said so" lol

mhmacw

let me recheck the facts. you get an oil change 4 weeks ago. you drive normally for 4 weeks then drive 370 miles. at the end of the trip you put 4 quarts of oil in. you then drive 370 miles while adding 1.5 more quarts. if this is correct it is going somewhere else. my position stands! your plugs would be wet and black from oil.

mhmacw

concealer404 wrote: »

'Fraid i don't quite follow.

Why are my plugs white, then? You say they should be black.

because you arent burning 5.5 quarts of oil in approximately 1400 miles. neither is the op. if you were the plugs would be black. even blowby at that rate would wash the plugs with oil and leave a smoke cloud you couldnt see through. blowby at 60000 is not real likely.

AudioGenics

pull the remaining five spark plugs
and let's see what they look like ?

Jstas

I can't give you an answer on cost.

What's causing it? I dunno. Blow-by from bad piston rings, bad valve seals, not sure. It's most likely a bad gasket, either a head gasket or an intake manifold gasket. Something could be cracked as well.

Me, first thing I would do is check ALL the plugs and do a leak down compression test on every cylinder to find out which one was the problem. I'd also put a pressure gauge on the fuel line after the regulator to see what the pressure was on the fuel rails. It would help prove the theory. If I was correct, then I'd proceed from there. I'd probably remove the head and get it checked out by a machine shop for problems unless the gaskets were obviously bad. But if you are driving on it this long, the block and head will likely have to be milled due to warpage.

But, knowing Toyota, you have no room to mill the head or block. So it's likely going to be a new engine. I wish I could help you more but it's difficult to do this over the Internet.

Your options for an engine are a re-manufactured long block or a junkyard engine. You could buy a new one from Toyota but that's at least 4 grand, probably more like 6 plus labor. A junkyard engine is going to be cheapest but high risk. It could have the same problems as your engine. If the vehicle was wrecked, that engine could be damaged with stress fractures as well. The reman'd block will be the best bet and will cost only a couple of thousand but it's labor intensive to replace. It will be cost effective though and a fraction of the worth of the vehicle.

If you lived near me, I'd send you to a mechanic or two that I know won't take you for a ride. But I don't. Without a shop and diagnostic tools on the vehicle, it's hard to be exactly sure what the problem is. But if the Toyota dealer you've been to has been useless, see if there is another dealer in the area. You could find a small independent mechanic and see if they can look it over too.


As far as driving on it for 1,000 miles, I can't say yay or nay. It's hard to know how bad things are from way over here and you could be OK on it for 10,000 miles or the engine could decide to ventilate the block by way of escaping piston rod tomorrow. I would imagine you would be OK on it until you could find a place to fix it, especially if you aren't driving far on it. But I'd get the info of a good towing company and keep it in your wallet in case something does go woefully wrong.

If your vehicle is worth 9 grand and this problem costs over 7 grand, I wouldn't bother with it unless the vehicle has some sentimental value. I'd trade it in on something new because the repairs wouldn't be worth it and you'd never recover the costs on the sale of the vehicle.

Estimates on what it would likely cost me locally:

Junkyard (if I could find the engine):
- anywhere from $300-$1500
- labor - approx. 8-12 hours

Re-manufactured Long Block:
- $900-$2500 (depends on company, local availability and such)
- labor 10-14 hours

New Engine:
- $4-$8 grand, easily
- labor 4-8 hours

Labor costs are typically $65-$75 an hour in my area. Might be more or less. Junkyard and Re-mans are labor intensive because you reuse old parts and have to transfer them. Also, junkyard engines often have harnesses and hoses and such just cut so there might be items that need to be replaced adding extra cost. Any necessary gaskets add cost as well and often have to be sourced from the dealer. Especially for Toyota and other brands trying to maintain a "quality of service" standard.

A new crate engine may or may not come complete but it is much easier to install and usually goes quickly. I know I can replace a Corolla engine with a new crate engine before Lunch if I start at 8AM.

There are plenty of professional mechanics here that can probably give better answers on labor costs and time than I can. I only have NADA guides and ALLDATA charts to go by and they are more "rule-of-thumb" than real world.

AudioGenics

amsoil has a webpage that lists possible reasons for
high engine oil consumption....

http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/motor_oil_consumption.htm

to correctly diagnose your reason will require specific information

AudioGenics

found something interesting about your engine.
your mechanic and dealer can easily determine if it is applicable.

I cut and pasted ".....gel campaign, it has expired, the stipulation was up to 8 years from in service date and expired in 2007, this was part of a class action law suit.

Read more: http://www.justanswer.com/questions/19mvj-excessive-oil-use-in-2002-highlander-v6-awd#ixzz0htro22Io

mhmacw

jvc thats a great link. i wonder if the oil was full before she left on the trip or if already on the low side.

nooshinjohn

mhmacw wrote: »

those pic are well and good if you change the plugs on a regular basis and have a clean running engine monitored for air fuel mixture. though they are informative they arent always indicative. it is acceptable to compare plugs to a chart if there isnt a radicle problem afoot. this guy didnt say hes a half quart low at oil changes. he said hes lost 1 quart and a half in 370 miles. thats not applicable to a chart. you may as well pour it into the intake at that rate. oil in that volume would foul plugs and the cylinder would burn cold if it had a lower fuel pressure/volume being delivered compounding the problem of the oil not being burnd up. when oil is introduced to the combustion chamber it fouls plugs it doesnt make the cylinder burn hot.

It seems that you know just as much about cars as you do audio:rolleyes:...

sucks2beme

It kills me the dealer didn't run a cooling pressure check and a compression check. Time for this to happen. That will at least tell you if the engine is a complete mess or not. The PVC valve or leaking oil via the valve stems are possible, but we can talk this to death. Look for what's causing the spark plug problem, and there's a good chance it is the fix for the oil leak problem. Always go for the obvious first. You're burning something that's not gas. That much is certain.

mhmacw

nooshinjohn wrote: »

It seems that you know just as much about cars as you do audio:rolleyes:...

it may seem that way to those of you that dont know the difference(nooshinjohn). but the real truth is i know lots more about audio than i do cars! my question is have any of you brain children with all the answers ever run a comparator? if not try to keep up. if you measure the gap of that spark plug and put it in proportion to the size of the pic youll find the gap is not out of line(a little wide but tolerable). i think from memory the gap in that dude is like .52 to .62 or some outlandish junk like that...dont quote me though. "i cant believe its still firing" if thats the worst you've seen in spark plugs pal take a seat. 5.5 quarts of oil in 1400 miles Will wash the plugs. take it for what you will, listen to who you want, its not my bill, not my car, not my problem. but id be happy to help if i can. as for you noosh...go hump someone elses leg. (i love the opportunity to say that haha). but whilst your here. you are a car salesman? that explains it...did you actually buy the crap of the vette using 1.5 quarts as acceptable i wouldnt doubt it. guilt by proximity stops at the garage door, lot lizard, leave the tech to the techies. thus far jstas and i have a simple discussion about the reasoning of a malfunction and you cant help but open your mouth. honestly can a sales man ever shutup? hey jstas check the book rate for the r&r i know the 3.0 in a 4 runner(3vz)is about 15 hrs no parts no machine work. also lets double check the 3.6 thing...im guessing a 3.0 or 3.4 but just a guess. ANYWAY....have we gotten the pics of the other plugs? sure is a lot of oil missing hehe.

nooshinjohn

mhmacw wrote: »

as for you noosh...go hump someone elses leg. (i love the opportunity to say that haha). but whilst your here. you are a car salesman? that explains it...did you actually buy the crap of the vette using 1.5 quarts as acceptable i wouldnt doubt it. guilt by proximity stops at the garage door, lot lizard, leave the tech to the techies. thus far jstas and i have a simple discussion about the reasoning of a malfunction and you cant help but open your mouth. honestly can a sales man ever shutup?

Was in service (GM) for close to ten years before I took a sales job. I read the specs and conducted the tests myself. I have been around, inside, outside and built cars for the better part of 25 years... I think I have enough experience to voice my opinions. In keeping with the spirit of the rules of the forum, I will not drop to the level of personal insults and name calling as you did.

mhmacw

what i said was no more antagonistic than your comment. so whats your take on this or do you have one? too much oil missing to have burned it and have clean plugs. the plug shown has acummulated its deposits over time . the op is not stating a long term issue. 4 weeks total loosing 5.5 quarts. what your saying is if he put new plugs in and 4 weeks later they looked like that it would be ok? i dont think so.

nooshinjohn

^^^Please see my original post in this thread...

mhmacw

i had in fact eluded to that post as a refrence . if your position is unchanged whats the point of the cars/audio remark other than to be a ****? the fact remains, lots of oil gone. that much oil isnt going to ash deposits. id be concerned if a 425 cat burned this much oil. heck a 16000 mantowac doesnt use that much fluid, including the hydrolics system, in the time frame hes stating. none in the pipe ...none on the ground...still seems there is a piece of the puzzle missing.

mhmacw

not to be off topic OP, but john, if you ever put that 600x2 up for sale again dont tell me as ill buy it before you have a chance to change your mind!:D

sucks2beme

Gee, guys, take a chill pill. No reason to get a warning shot the first week of
the new rules.

Get the vehicle into a shop that want's to do more than get it out of the bay.
Get some testing done. It's pointless to guess how much an engine overhaul
costs if we don't know if that's what's needed.

nooshinjohn

sucks2beme wrote: »

Gee, guys, take a chill pill. No reason to get a warning shot the first week of
the new rules.

We're good;)...

mhmacw

sucks2beme wrote: »

Gee, guys, take a chill pill. No reason to get a warning shot the first week of
the new rules.

Get the vehicle into a shop that want's to do more than get it out of the bay.
Get some testing done. It's pointless to guess how much an engine overhaul
costs if we don't know if that's what's needed.

indeed!

raidersrule76

I agree with most of what has been said here, but really no one has mentioned anything about how few miles this truck has on it, at least I don't think anyway. To me 61,000 is way to low to be having this kind of oil issue. Im sure that when he had it at the dealer they had it up in the air and would have seen any oil on the underside.

I in my best guess would say that some way some how it is burning it. I would also think that even its not in your budget at this time to trade I would really be thinking about it unless you can find the cause and its a cheaper fix than replacing the motor.

You will also have a rough time finding a motor that has that kind of miles on it without spending more money on a lower mileage motor if you went the used route that is.

One other thing to remember.... If you do decide to replace the motor if it needs it that is you will not get the extra money out of it when you do decide to sell.... I know this seems like common sense to most people but I have had dealings with people that just because they just got done spending a bunch of money on a car that they think its worth that much more when they sell it.

I hope you can get this figured out soon and not have to worry about it STRESS makes us older than we already are. Good luck and keep us posted Im sure everyone is dying to find out the answer maybe even more so than you.


Mark

concealer404

mhmacw wrote: »

because you arent burning 5.5 quarts of oil in approximately 1400 miles. neither is the op. if you were the plugs would be black. even blowby at that rate would wash the plugs with oil and leave a smoke cloud you couldnt see through. blowby at 60000 is not real likely.

I burned a quart and a half of oil yesterday driving 250 miles. So you're right. I'm burning 8.4 quarts of oil in 1400 miles.



For the record, there's plenty of room to deck the heads on this motor.

I'm also betting on a gasket. Valve seals don't go all at once like this, and piston rings aren't typically an issue with the 5vzfe.

mhmacw

well there you have it OP you better listen to the 23 year old with the 700$ chevette. im sure his experience tops all the rest.