Kid Directs Air Traffic At JFK
Comments
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ryanjoachim wrote: »At no time was the child allowed to relay any type of "important" information. As said before, this is being blown way out of proportion and people are taking this way too seriously.
Thank you for pointing that out. Jesus some people over react...
Comparing that to driving an 18 wheeler? That is so full of fail I dont know where to start.
-CodyMusic is like candy, you have to get rid of the rappers to enjoy it -
If the media didn't find out about this, I bet his boss would just let it slide.I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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nooshinjohn wrote: »what else happened in the news today while we have had our attention diverted by this? That would be the real story we need to be watching.
exactly!Honoured to be, an original SOPA founding member
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If the media didn't find out about this, I bet his boss would just let it slide.
I bet his boss let his own kids do a similar thing. I don't see that huge deal here. Wrong, yes... Were lives at any time in danger, no. Should there be a suspension without pay for those involved, including the supervisor? perhaps. But for this to be the biggest story of the day when much more important crap happened (the Prez' heathcare proposal), I don't think so.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
This kid with his DAD was awsome. My DAD put me in the seat of a three story Catterpillar bulldozer, started it up and said go ahead... That is a great memory for me!!!!!! I couldn't even reach the pedals so what, did he put the city at risk of a run away 100,000 lb. dozer??? Man, I feel sorry for people who can't relate to a father/son moment like the air traffic kids words being said instead of his fathers. If he gets fired or even repremanded I will be disgusted about it as much as I am about most of America NOT giving a d#@m about Illigal aliens.
Where was the outrage when imagrants were flooding into our workforce? Where did the ignorance of that topic end up? Economic unstability...
I'm glad to be in the majority thinking this aircontrol thing was NOTHING!Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them. -
Well said Tony...The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Guys, let's keep it on topic and civil.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
:eek::eek::eek:
I remember as a kid being invited into the cockpit during mid flight. It was one of the coolest experiences ever.. . . No, I was never asked if I like gladiator movies!!!:D
were you that kid in the movie Airplane ?
PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
I do see a problem. The problem is the media over reacting over nothing.
seriously??
and the FAA isn't over reacting, just the media? wow... the media only responds to what the FAA is saying is a big deal.
simply amazing to blame the media for an incident the FAA is taking very seriously. :mad:PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
danger boy wrote: »were you that kid in the movie Airplane ?
I wish!!!
My mom worked for the airlines in the 70's and early 80's. Whenever we went on family vacations, she would somehow arrange it. On a trip to Brazil, they even offered to let me sit up there when the plane landed, but my mom said no. -
I wish!!!
My mom worked for the airlines in the 70's and early 80's. Whenever we went on family vacations, she would somehow arrange it. On a trip to Brazil, they even offered to let me sit up there when the plane landed, but my mom said no.
ahhhh the good old days.. of course that would never happen today... but cool memory for you i'm sure.PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin: -
Most people just listen to music and watch movies. I EXPERIENCE them.
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Ultimately, doesn't it depend on the companies policy (in this case it would be the FAA). I know that if I break any policy lined out for me at my work, regardless of the merits of said policy, I can or will be fired. The same thing should apply here. An employee is doing something they shouldn't be doing which can be means for dismissal anywhere.
While father/son moments are great, and we all have probably had similar experiences, the father should have been teaching his son that there is always a time and place where professionalism and following the rules is of the highest importance. If the kid grows up thinking that he got his old man fired, it will be his fathers own fault. -
Ultimately, doesn't it depend on the companies policy (in this case it would be the FAA). I know that if I break any policy lined out for me at my work, regardless of the merits of said policy, I can or will be fired. The same thing should apply here. An employee is doing something they shouldn't be doing which can be means for dismissal anywhere.
While father/son moments are great, and we all have probably had similar experiences, the father should have been teaching his son that there is always a time and place where professionalism and following the rules is of the highest importance. If the kid grows up thinking that he got his old man fired, it will be his fathers own fault.
I don't agree. Following a rule is not important if the rule is stupid.
Rules are nothing more than a guide. Following them should be done on a case by case basis only. -
I don't agree. Following a rule is not important if the rule is stupid.
Rules are nothing more than a guide. Following them should be done on a case by case basis only.
And this, gentlemen, was how our great country was founded!
If we relegate our decisions to what is "acceptable according to rules" where are we as a nation? Our discretion and smarts need to take first priority, then a list of rules after that.Honoured to be, an original SOPA founding member
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Rules are nothing more than a guide. Following them should be done on a case by case basis only.
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I don't agree. Following a rule is not important if the rule is stupid.
Rules are nothing more than a guide. Following them should be done on a case by case basis only.
(Keep in mind that I am assuming that there is some rule or policy in place stating that only FAA employees may direct Air and Ground traffic. I am also assuming you are being serious.)
But you raise a good point. Following rules should be judged on a case by case basis. Maybe they can shave some time off of the communication by not having pilots verify who is talking at the end of transmission. That is a redundant time-waster. After all, if ATC calls out, the right guy is probably the one talking back right? Maybe the next time the skies around JFK get congested, they can just go ahead and bypass the 1000 ft. vertical separation rule and stack them 600 ft. apart since 1000 is waaaayyy overboard. Heck, why not 300. It would keep them all together and make them easier to manage. That's a stupid limit isn't it? 1000 ft is far more than needed for safety. They might as well keep on breaking rules one by one as each individual employee sees fit. Maybe eventually a couple of lives will be lost but it won't be an issue because that will help highlight which rules actually make sense and should be followed.
Do you know why there are Air Traffic Controllers who must follow a common set of rules? Its because planes crashed into each other. It's because when you have 5 people in a tower all handling air traffic while 2 others handle ground traffic, and all are following the exact same rules, they know what is happening around them and what the other controllers are doing without talking directly to them because they are all following the exact same rules. The rules have been developed and improved many times over the past five decades with much logic and reason behind them. Some are reactive due to certain emergencies, crashes, and system failures, while others are proactive and, in some cases, to prevent seemingly ridiculous or unfathomable situations. Just because something didn't happen in this case, doesn't mean nothing could have.
Perhaps half way through giving clearance, there was an emergency that required that runway and needed that plane to halt. The father would have to grab the headset from his kid wasting about half a second. The pilot is now going from hearing some cheery kid to hearing his dad saying "whoa, cancel that" while wasting maybe up to one second in the process. Sure it's unlikely that that .5 to 1 second would matter, but does something have to happen before we can see how much value one second has? The whole point of the redundance, inefficiencies, and strict rules in the air traffic system, is to make it as safe as possible. If you are in a serious and professional work environment, making six figures (i assume based on what I know about the pay for ATC in Canada), you do your job and DON'T F%&* AROUND!
If you don't like the rules, go work somewhere else. Hopefully this guy won't have a choice. -
Our discretion and smarts need to take first priority, then a list of rules after that.
That can be a scary approach sometimes though. Great quote by George Carlin: (paraphrased)
"The worlds scariest thought: Think about how dumb the average person you run into on a daily basis is. Now think that half of the people in the world are dumber than THAT!" -
Rules are guidelines and nothing more. God gave us all brains to use for a reason and even if you don't believe that -- we've all got one!
I can't stand rules are rules people. They're the same ones who will defend kicking a child out of school for having a plastic knife in his or her lunch box. Zero tolerance, after all! We wouldn't want to use our brains to determine what the real threat is. Rules are rules!
I'm sure this guy broke rules and possibly even good ones. The man should probably be scolded, but he shouldn't lose his job over it.
Doing what is right is ALWAYS more important than following the rules. -
Rules are guidelines and nothing more. God gave us all brains to use for a reason and even if you don't believe that -- we've all got one!
Yes, and I'm sure the chain of command have brains and are investigating the incident and deciding on a course of action.I'm sure this guy broke rules and possibly even good ones. The man should probably be scolded, but he shouldn't lose his job over it.
And that's your brain and your decision and if you were in charge you would rule according to your belief.
What I've been trying to convey and BeRaD, too, although I don't want to speak for him, is that the FAA is no joke. You get into that business, you should be well aware of the code of conduct. To paraphase Kay in Men in Black, "No, ma'am. We at the [FAA] do not have a sense of humor we're aware of." -
I too can't stand the rules are rules type of people. I hate people that are all 'cut and dry' about rules just as I generally HATE people that want more laws put into place because they want a social babysitter and not a government.
However: (and this is speaking specifically about the rules associated with ones employment)
I do believe that rules and regulations are needed and should sometimes be followed to a tee depending on the importance of the job. The importance of a job should be gauged by how it affects, and relates to, society or a general outside populous. For example: a bus driver has a slightly more important job than a taxi driver, but both have a FAR more important job than the kid flipping burgers at a fast food joint, who has a more important job than a private gardener. The greater the importance, the more rules would, and should be applied to the manner in which the job is performed. Rules that are set in place by the people who are signing the persons paycheque should usually be followed.
Really, this guy is getting paid to do something, and to do it a certain way. It is a job that not just anybody can do and (in Canada anyways) more than 80 % of people who pass the initial tests, never make it through to certification. It is a very specific job for a very specific type of person, and therefore, pays well, has a paid hour break for every paid hour of work (again, in Canada anyways), and a good benefits package. This is an important job as you indirectly effect hundreds of millions of dollars worth of equipment, and thousands of people per day, possibly more if something happens and you count people on the ground as well. This is one of the few types of employment that I believe really should have a zero tolerance policy based on the level of importance. The rewards for doing the job how it is supposed to be done are well worth it. -
fatchowmein wrote: »Yes, and I'm sure the chain of command have brains and are investigating the incident and deciding on a course of action.
And that's your brain and your decision and if you were in charge you would rule according to your belief.
What I've been trying to convey and BeRaD, too, although I don't want to speak for him, is that the FAA is no joke. You get into that business, you should be well aware of the code of conduct. To paraphase Kay in Men in Black, "No, ma'am. We at the [FAA] do not have a sense of humor we're aware of."
I was responding to this:While father/son moments are great, and we all have probably had similar experiences, the father should have been teaching his son that there is always a time and place where professionalism and following the rules is of the highest importance. If the kid grows up thinking that he got his old man fired, it will be his fathers own fault.
I don't think following rules is of the highest importance. Doing what's right is of the highest importance. God gave us brains to think not to just blindly follow rules.
I notice you omitted my example about people who take rules are rules to ridiculous extremes. Was that because it was an incredibly valid point?
As for this story, the man clearly broke some rules and I'm not defending it. Just saying it happened and it isn't nearly as big a deal as the news media and FAA is making it out to be. -
Seriously, what are you guys babbling about?
The most the kid said that was of any possible use to the pilot was he was clear for take off, nothing else. And if in ANY way the kid made a mistake, the parent was RIGHT THERE to correct. This was in no way a danger to anyone, relax guysAVR: H/K AVR240
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I too can't stand the rules are rules type of people. I hate people that are all 'cut and dry' about rules just as I generally HATE people that want more laws put into place because they want a social babysitter and not a government.
..and that's all I have been saying. I wasn't arguing with you about this:However: (and this is speaking specifically about the rules associated with ones employment)
I do believe that rules and regulations are needed and should sometimes be followed to a tee depending on the importance of the job. The importance of a job should be gauged by how it affects, and relates to, society or a general outside populous. For example: a bus driver has a slightly more important job than a taxi driver, but both have a FAR more important job than the kid flipping burgers at a fast food joint, who has a more important job than a private gardener. The greater the importance, the more rules would, and should be applied to the manner in which the job is performed. Rules that are set in place by the people who are signing the persons paycheque should usually be followed.
Really, this guy is getting paid to do something, and to do it a certain way. It is a job that not just anybody can do and (in Canada anyways) more than 80 % of people who pass the initial tests, never make it through to certification. It is a very specific job for a very specific type of person, and therefore, pays well, has a paid hour break for every paid hour of work (again, in Canada anyways), and a good benefits package. This is an important job as you indirectly effect hundreds of millions of dollars worth of equipment, and thousands of people per day, possibly more if something happens and you count people on the ground as well. This is one of the few types of employment that I believe really should have a zero tolerance policy based on the level of importance. The rewards for doing the job how it is supposed to be done are well worth it.
I still don't think what he did is a fireable offense. I have employees of my own and realize people make mistakes. The degree of the offense determines what the recourse is I take against them. There is no rule book I follow...I use my head. -
Demi: You missed something there. I said that there is a time and place where following the rules is important. You can't honestly say that there is NEVER a situation where a certain code should be followed can you?
Edit: Heck I wouldn't call this an argument. More of a debate. I do enjoy a nice civil exchange of differing opinions and don't get me wrong, I respect yours.
Off to bed. g'night. -
Demi: You missed something there. I said that there is a time and place where following the rules is important. You can't honestly say that there is NEVER a situation where a certain code should be followed can you?
A rule is nothing but a guideline to follow. However, situations are not always the same and rules often need to be broken and we don't need people constantly second guessing those who break rules.
Obviously that doesn't apply to this story, but when I made those comments I was replying to something you said that had nothing to do with this story either. Looks like the two got mixed up.
As far as this story goes, I'm sure the man broke some rules that he shouldn't have broken. Rules that are probably there for good reason.
That said, I don't find this offense to be one that should cost him hist job.
Ya'll are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. If you disagree, it's all good...lets move on. -
I was responding to this:
I don't think following rules is of the highest importance. Doing what's right is of the highest importance. God gave us brains to think not to just blindly follow rules.
I notice you omitted my example about people who take rules are rules to ridiculous extremes. Was that because it was an incredibly valid point?
As for this story, the man clearly broke some rules and I'm not defending it. Just saying it happened and it isn't nearly as big a deal as the news media and FAA is making it out to be.
BeRad said, "the father should have been teaching his son that there is always a time and place where professionalism and following the rules is of the highest importance." He's not saying rules is rules.
The problem is you, me, BeRad, the FAA, the media, and a lot of people reading this will differ on the time and place.
As for doing what is right, some will argue that having a father/daughter moment trumps FAA rules, others will argue that risking your job when you know the rules isn't the right thing to do especially in this economy isn't the right thing, and others will argue the safety aspect.
We're not going to agree and I never said rules is rules. I'm just saying the FAA will smack you hard. -
fatchowmein wrote: »BeRad said, "the father should have been teaching his son that there is always a time and place where professionalism and following the rules is of the highest importance." He's not saying rules is rules.
The problem is you, me, BeRad, the FAA, the media, and a lot of people reading this will differ on the time and place.
As for doing what is right, some will argue that having a father/daughter moment trumps FAA rules, others will argue that risking your job when you know the rules isn't the right thing to do especially in this economy isn't the right thing, and others will argue the safety aspect.
We're not going to agree and I never said rules is rules. I'm just saying the FAA will smack you hard.
There isn't always a time and place... -
Ya'll are making this way more complicated than it needs to be. If you disagree, it's all good...lets move on.
Sorry, arrived late. Moving on... -
I predict the guy will lose his job:
1. He will probably be made an example of by the FAA wanting to make it crystal clear that having your KIDS (multiple no less) talk over the air is an idiotic thing to do
2. He let his 8yr old daughter and his son (didn't see his age) talk out over the air in what is, as I understand it, a sterile environment anything under 10k feet. I read recently that the reason for this 'sterility' is to ensure that guidelines are followed to a T and nothing is done incorrectly at any point and there's not even freelance conversation going on between the Pilots.
I'm pretty sure that if this guy thought that his two kids should be talking on the air at his job, down the line he'd have them doing more things to see how 'cool' more and more was.
The issue for me isn't that the guy brought his kids to work, or even the content of the kids words (spoon fed by dad, I get it).......it's the lack of judgement shown by someone whose job requires federal background checks and is one of the higest stress positions in the world and he thinks it's ok to just have an 8yo hop into a chair and help.comment comment comment comment. bitchy.
