Say it aint so.... Carver Digital is an EMO?
nooshinjohn
Posts: 25,420
I want to be up front here that this is NOT a bash thread!!!! It is a shame to have to begin a thread with such a disclaimer.
There is a Carver Digital HT amp for sale on Ebay, and from a spec/appearance standpoint, it favors the Emotiva pretty heavily. I do know that Phoenix Gold bought Carver, but around the time this amp was to be released, they lost the rights to the Carver name and the project was scrapped. This amp is very rare, but I bet not highly sought after as it is not really a Carver design. The question is did this amp become the beginnings of the Emotiva line? I know there is a relationship there somewhere because the Sunfire Preamp served as the basis for an Emotiva unit.
I am only looking to solve a bit of a mystery here and hope someone here will know the answer.:)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Carver-HPA-5-1-Home-Theater-Power-Amplifier-New_W0QQitemZ380209027213QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item588639588d
There is a Carver Digital HT amp for sale on Ebay, and from a spec/appearance standpoint, it favors the Emotiva pretty heavily. I do know that Phoenix Gold bought Carver, but around the time this amp was to be released, they lost the rights to the Carver name and the project was scrapped. This amp is very rare, but I bet not highly sought after as it is not really a Carver design. The question is did this amp become the beginnings of the Emotiva line? I know there is a relationship there somewhere because the Sunfire Preamp served as the basis for an Emotiva unit.
I am only looking to solve a bit of a mystery here and hope someone here will know the answer.:)
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Carver-HPA-5-1-Home-Theater-Power-Amplifier-New_W0QQitemZ380209027213QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item588639588d
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
Post edited by nooshinjohn on
Comments
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I am thinking that perhaps The guys at Emo got their hands on this amp design and made the XPA-5 from it. As I said, the specs are spot on or very close, as is the use of individial amp modules within the chassis. And with the link between Emo/Sunfire(after Bob left) there is a lot of smoke there. It would be very interesting to know.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
nooshinjohn wrote: »I am thinking that perhaps The guys at EM design and made the XPA-5 from it.
The Carver appears to be a class H power amp, the Emotiva is a class A/B. Only real similarity I see, is that they are both 5 channel. I doubt the guys at Emo "got their hands on this amp", amps are simple to design, no need for corporate espionage. -
Whoa... interesting.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
The Carver appears to be a class H power amp, the Emotiva is a class A/B. Only real similarity I see, is that they are both 5 channel. I doubt the guys at Emo "got their hands on this amp", amps are simple to design, no need for corporate espionage.
OP is talking about the MPS-1 and 2 which is in fact H class amp.Video: LG 55LN5100/Samsung LNT4065F
Receiver: HK AVR445
Source: OPPO BDP-93
HT: POLK SPEAKERS RTi6, FXi3, CSi5, VTF-3 MK2
2Ch system: MC2105, AR-XA, AR-2A, AR9, BX-300, OPPO BDP-83 -
Big surprise."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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Does the emo weigh 84 pounds?Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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It's possibile, the MPS-1 was released in early 05 while the Carver unit was first announced in 04 but was never shown until 06, so which came first?....does it really matter? If you have been around long enough you will see many similarities between different company amps as a majority made overseas come from the same small group of manufactures.
The MPS-1 weighed in at 115lbs.
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/emotiva-mps-1/mps-1-overview-and-setup
Carver back panel:
EMO MPS-1
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I would just love for that to be true but of course Bob has washed his hands of that company for the Carverites. This made my day. TY Matt!CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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I'd like to put $20 down that it's the same amp. Those modules are visually IDENTICAL, down to the mounting screws, and that's just a bit too much coincidence for me.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
They have the same blue lights. Hummm.Living room
Speakers: McIntosh XR100 Fronts, LSIM707 Fronts, LSIM 706 Center, LSIM 703 Surrounds, LSi/FX Surround backs.
Player: Oppo 95.
Amps: Bryston 4B SST, B&K Ref 200.7 S2.
Pres: B&K Ref 50 S2, Paraound P5.
Subs: Dual Rythmik F15HP subs.
Man Cave
Speakers: Martin Logan Vistas.
Player: OPPO 105.
Preamp: B&K Ref 50 S2.
Amp: B&K Ref 125.2 S2
Sub: Rythmik F12.
Sub management: SMS-1.
Headphones: HD800, HD380, RS220, SRH-1840. Headphone amp: Woo WA2.
Room treatment: GIK Room Kit #1. -
I would just love for that to be true but of course Bob has washed his hands of that company for the Carverites. This made my day. TY Matt!
You are right Doro... Bob had been gone for about three years at this point if I remember correctly. The Carver name and the brand went off in a very different direction by the time Phoenix Gold made these amps. There was some sort of a court fight to force Phoenix Gold from using his name during this time, and when that was settled, these amps and pre-amps dissappeared. I spoke to a guy that said thousands of them were destroyed.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
I wonder if Phoenix Gold makes Emotiva's amps?I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
concealer404 wrote: »I'd like to put $20 down that it's the same amp. Those modules are visually IDENTICAL, down to the mounting screws, and that's just a bit too much coincidence for me.
Looking at it I would have to put my $$ with yours. It could be the Carver/Phoenix Gold (whom ever) contracted the amp out to the company that would eventually DBA as Emotiva.
That has to be the same as an Emotiva amp. With that in mind it will be really interesting to see what the final bid price is.
Want to start a betting pool? I pick $700 -
Sounds like a safe bet concealer. It is a challenge to bring a new amp to market, but if all you need to do is drop a name on one that already exists it becomes much easier.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
concealer404 wrote: »I wonder if Phoenix Gold makes Emotiva's amps?
Phoenix Gold actually falls under RodinAudio (as well as Audiosource and Carver, Carver Digital) which itself is only a 50+/- person operation based out of Oregon. They all use overseas manufactures like Emotiva now AFAIK. -
I found this little snippet while searching...Dan Laufman has been in business a long time, and has built OEM product for all kinds of people, including Phoenix Gold.
It is the same amp. My guess would be that after Phoenix Gold pulled back, Dan recognised the opportunity and jumped all over it.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Given the ability of chinese companies to obtain intellectual property (legally by the government requriement to share the information before being allowed to do business in china, or illegally given their lax respect for intellectual property laws) is it possible that Emotiva products are just knock offs?
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Does it really matter? I mean, how does it sound?
I don't care, really, if it's a **** in a coffee can....if it sounds good, it sounds good.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
I don't know about calling them knock-offs, but I think it safe to say that their pricing has dropped considerably from when this was built...
http://emotiva.com/mps2.shtm
This is a link to the sale page for the amp. 1700 bucks new, and their new gear sells for half that price. For me this is a clear indication that this amp and the Emotiva brand started life as someone else's design.
I think this is pretty much case closed on this one.... Thanks guys for all the help.:)The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Does it really matter? I mean, how does it sound?
I don't care, really, if it's a **** in a coffee can....if it sounds good, it sounds good.
BDT
If it costs more, wouldn't that matter? Kinda like Lexicon vs OPPO?CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
Phoenix Gold actually falls under RodinAudio (as well as Audiosource and Carver, Carver Digital) which itself is only a 50+/- person operation based out of Oregon. They all use overseas manufactures like Emotiva now AFAIK.
if im not mistaken stillwater designs and kicker are in there as well. -
OP is talking about the MPS-1 and 2 which is in fact H class amp.
Really? I quoted what the OP said:nooshinjohn wrote: »I am thinking that perhaps The guys at Emo got their hands on this amp design and made the XPA-5 from it. -
yeah... I was wrong on that. Never quote me before the first beer.:DThe Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
Very intresting thread. Makes me want to bid on it.Sunfire TGP, Sunfire Cinema Grand, Sunfire 300~2 (2), Sunfire True Sub (2),Carver ALS Platinum, Carver AL III, TFM-55, C-19, C-9, TX-8, SDA-490t, SDA-390t
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nooshinjohn wrote: »For me this is a clear indication that this amp and the Emotiva brand started life as someone else's design.
How do you make this conclusion? Isn't it also possible that the designer for this amp and the Emo's are the same, that they just sold under Phoenix Gold first and then went their own way?SystemLuxman L-590AXII Integrated Amplifier|KEF Reference 1 Loudspeakers|PS Audio Directream Jr|Sansui TU-9900 Tuner|TEAC A-6100 RtR|Nakamichi RX-202 Cassette -
Jetmaker737 wrote: »How do you make this conclusion? Isn't it also possible that the designer for this amp and the Emo's are the same, that they just sold under Phoenix Gold first and then went their own way?
The amp was first designed for Phoenix Gold and was to be sold under the Carver Digital name. The founder of Emotiva worked as a marketing rep for a company called Homni, a small(at that time) electronics company in China. Just prior to Bob leaving Carver Corporation, they had begun to farm out circuit board design to them. After Carver was sold to Poenix Gold, that relationship deepened, culminating in the amp we are talking about.
Prior to it's introduction to market, the contract to build them was desolved due to Phoenix Gold loosing the rights to the Carver name. Phoenix lost the rights to the design when the contract was cancelled. By this time, Dan Laufman had aquired a significant ownership stake in Homni. He rebranded this amp as Emotiva. The rest is history.... I spoke to Bob C. about this today.:) His recollection of events is not 100% because he was not involved with the company any longer when these events occured.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson -
When you want the straight ****, ya' gotta go to the horse's mouth. There it is folks.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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It's still embarassing.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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Why? Sunfire=Carver technology=EMO...
Who cares, so long as folks enjoy [or not] what they are listening too. I could care less. S happens...~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
It's still embarassing.
How so? Bob was long gone by then. He started Sunfire with essentially a clean slate and did not share that tech with anyone prior to his departure. What happens after the man is gone is not his responsibility. Personally, I am glad that Emo was fortunate to begin with a design that was intended for Carver.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
