The future of high end retail

jaxwired

I've read many forum posts and articles (both online and print) in recent years talking about how high end retail has been dying a slow death in the USA. I just read another such article and I wanted to start a discussion on this subject.

There seems to be near universal agreement that the hobby is not attracting enough new young people and that the majority of the buying population is aging and will soon be dominated by elderly men (if it's not already, LOL).

I'm not talking about home theater here. That hobby has less of a problem recruiting new members. I'm talking about 2 channel stereo or what I like to call HiFi.

Some of the articles I've read talk about how retailers need to change to recruit new consumers to the hobby. I'm not convinced that retailers can recruit new consumers regardless of what they change. But if it IS actually possible, here are some things I think would have to change.

1. Move the stores to high traffic retail centers. The vast majority of hifi stores are in out of the way strip malls or worse, in stand alone obscure locations. So the only people that go in are people that already are audiophiles. HiFi stores don't like lookyloos, but that's what it takes to recruit new people to the hobby. You have to put these stores in the malls or other super high traffic retail centers. Even if it's just a satellite store. I don't see many articles talk about this, but I see this as the number one problem if you want to attract new people.
2. The front room or 2 in the store must be unpretentious and unintimidating. These 2 rooms should include very affordable offerings. You can set up a 2 channel system for under 2k that will blow away a best buy system and most people have never heard such a system. These stores must have several of these giant killer budget systems ready for easy demo.
3. The front of the store with the budget gear should look more like best buy or similar store with boxes of the products stacked next to the demo setup. What I'm saying is, it has look like what people are used to seeing, not the typical ming vase, don't touch, roped off musuem look that most hifi stores prefer. You can have that in the back rooms.

Those are my thoughts on retail. Doubt anything like this would ever happen. I'm also not sure that this would work, but what high end stores do now will never attract more than a very few new consumers.

I have more thoughts on the future of high end retail and the internet, but I will save that for another post.

nooshinjohn

Bose already follows this approach...

markmarc

First and foremost, the owner must have deep pockets. Be willing to spend the first year running the shop without income coming in. The second year enough to cover the bills. Profit comes in the third year.

Second, location should be next door to a popular restaurant or two to gain foot traffic. Parking should be easy, not difficult.

Third, sell used/consigned gear, that creates regular visitors and the idea that their is always fresh gear to look at.

Four, have a new music night once a month, playing a great new cd/lp on the high end system. Have a second night a month for reps to give a seminar on new gear.

Five, play music in the front that attracts young people. They are the future buyers. Sell a variety of portable music players.

Six, pay a salary plus store performance bonus given monthly along with an individual bonus as well. You want a sales staff to work together.

Seven, lighting should be designed for ease of lookers, but able to be turned down for listening sessions. Display racks should have enough room so that customers can see the back side of gear. One shop I visited had mirrors behind each piece of gear.

Eight, gear can be taken home for demoing on the days the shop is closed. A credit card will be used as the deposit.

That's enough for now.

mantis

We at the Audiolab are standing strong and not budging. Check out our new website. It's coming along pretty good. It's not finished yet. O and look out for Dan's Lab which will feature non other then ME doing video reviews on gear. Stay tuned fellow Polkies mantis is going video LOL.
www.audiolab.com

Tony M

I feel high-end audio is only for people who don't move very often. I think the younger generation are mobile and like disposable things. Their cars can't move a pr. of SDA's or pioneer HPM-100's.Some don't have the strength to even move an SDA..
People like to meet at restaraunts and drink and eat to socialize now. The days of hanging out in a basement or living room are getting fewer and dated by their ideals.

I had a man over who compared a Bose 2.2 to my RT55's and liked the brightness of the bose better. Some people think that the Bose is clearer I guess.

I'm glad Polk has continued his passion to deliver a fine product at the lowest they can price them. Thanks to the other manufactures who still try to provide their ideas to the market as to what they think sound recording should sound like in our homes also.

I'll always have a passion for listenig and expierencing music and movies like alot of us here but others are liking this new COMPACT medium. I like the music server idea but 7000.00 is out of my league for a few years at the least.

Some one stated in a magazine artical that a high quality system was part of mating rituals in the 60's and 70's. It's not nessesary anymore...

Lastly, the music released in the last 15 yrs., for the most part DID NOT require a high quality listening system!

I'm glad I lived through this era with audio advances and the other advances as well. We were able to appreciate the improvements ALONG the way. Kids nowadays don't know HOW to judge what's good or not unless they happen to meet one of US..AMEN

hearingimpared

mantis wrote: »

We at the Audiolab are standing strong and not budging. Check out our new website. It's coming along pretty good. It's not finished yet. O and look out for Dan's Lab which will feature non other then ME doing video reviews on gear. Stay tuned fellow Polkies mantis is going video LOL.
www.audiolab.com

Reported, spam!:D:p

jaxwired

Ok, so the other position that lots of people hold is that there is no way to save high end retail since there is just not a big enough market to support it. It's will just keep dying a slow death. While it's true that home theater stores will always serve as custom order takers for 2 channel people, but that's about it.

I think this is probably closer to the truth and that we will never see big retail stores with big selection like we did 20 years ago.

High end audio in the USA changed alot over the last 20 years. There used to be a lot more mid-priced offerings. But the manufacturers all had to choose either mass market cheapo product or very expensive high end product. Most got out of the business of offering a full range long ago.

Assuming that brick and mortar is never coming back, there needs to be a new business model for 2 channel audio. Many of the manufacturers fight internet sales, but I see that as the obvious long term future and they better climb on board and lay off the boycott or they will suffer (already are suffering).

The beauty of the internet is that we can buy without paying the huge retail markup. A small markup is all that is needed. Also, it allows the online seller to reach the untapped market that is so spread out across the US. There are tons of smaller and mid-sized cities with no high end retailers. The 2 channel market might be too small to support stores in many mid-sized and smaller cities, but it's plenty big enough to support online retailers.

Just one real problem and it's a big one. How do people demo the products? The answer that comes to my mind is audio shows. More of them.

WilliamM2

The high end shops in my area have been gone for over ten years. Most of them told me that it was the entry level equipment that kept them in business. Once that was available at CC and BB, they could no longer compete on price, and lost most of their business. There really isn't much of a market for true high end.

One of my big issues with the high end stores I visit in other cities, is that they never seem to have the item in stock. I always get the same story, "This is the last one we have in stock (display model), we just put it on the floor yesterday", and they will tell you the same thing a month later, that they just put it out yesterday, because they don't remember you and think they can get away with it. And then they want full retail for that used piece of gear. No thanks.

Some don't even have a display in stock, but they will order it for you, no return on "special orders". If it's got to be ordered, I can order it myself online, get a much better price, and I get a return policy as well. These shops are killing themselves, they get no pity from me.

Jetmaker737

Whenever I've gone into a high end retailer in this area I feel I'm being treated the same as I would at a car dealer. I'm talking to a salesman who is interested in a big sale. They will spend a little time helping you but if you're not showing a commitment to buying something expensive real soon they will lose interest and send you off to the "back lot". I just don't think that the traditional customer-salesman model works anymore for audio, at least for us that are not uber wealthy with money to waste. There's too much info on the internet, both technical and pricing, to put up with being treated like that.

hearingimpared

http://www.questforsound.com/index.htm

Here is a thriving high end, brick & mortar store. He has been around for years and years. He does his own designing of products and sells his own line of said products. He sells entry level mid-fi all the way through high end.

He apparently has found the secret of staying in business and MOST of it is by word of mouth. Another plus is that he discounts his products regardless of the name brand.

I think others who want to thrive in the high end audio business should take a serious look at this guy's businesss model.

BTW he doesn't have any lavish show rooms or proper lighting or any gimmicks as a matter of fact the place is a mess still he somehow seems to thrive in this **** economy where the younger generation isn't interested in 2 ch audio.

MANSKITO

Being a young person (18 years of age) I can tell you that the audiophile industry at high end retail is simply to costly.

I ended up using my local hi-fi ( http://www.upstairsaudio.com/ ) shop as a demo room so i could find out what kind of products i want to buy used or more likely online.

Problem with high end retail is its a niche market and the internet dose a better job and always will.

The problem is not a lack of young people, its a lack of young people buying stuff (of that nature) from brick and mortar stores.

Polk and other brands have the young people covered when we go into best buy and hear a comparatively amazing (to the HTIB or $50 computer speakers ) Polk, Bose, Klipsch system that is well under 2K. lol more like 500-1000 at most is what most young people that i know would consider super high end.

If the hobby continues from there it will 9 times out of 10 end up on a google search or forum post.

Hi-fi shops are good for nothing more then a demo room. (in the eyes of a young person) There an outdated business model. Don't get me wrong I love the advice and experience i can find there its just the most important thing (the price tag) is just not right and will not get my business because of it.

I wish high end retail could match the prices of the internet but they simply can't. The high end of the future will most likely be a .com. I know it kind of sucks for something like speakers because you can't hear them but that is just the way the industry is going. Best buy has the low end and entry level (what young people want) covered.

Hawkeye

Is it any wonder Hi-end B&M's are folding? People in this thread say I'll go listen, absorb the knowledge and wisdom from the salesperson, take up their time then go order it on online.

I've been dealing with the same guy for about 5 years now. I'll drop in just to shoot the bull for a bit if he is not busy. Everything I've purchased from him was in stock or had it the next day. He's given me some wonderful deals on gear over the years.

One has to develop a relationship with a dealer. After I had been in there a couple times, I bought pair of cables I'd been considering. Not a big purchase, but enough to let him know I valued his company. Today, I could call him and have him order me a pair of $30k amps on my word.

Hi-end is expensive, that's why it's called hi-end. You pay for the service, help in solving a problem and yes, you pay for the Ming vase. Buying hi-end is supposed to be an experience. It's not like going to BB and purchasing a CD. I've spent up to four hours at one time listening to various pieces of gear and the dealer will mix and match to make me happy.

This dealer also has some mid-fi gear on display, hooked up and ready to play. He is on a very busy street with a huge foot traffic passing by everyday so there are a lot of looky-loos.

I don't think he's going anywhere soon. He covers the market he wants to cover and it appears it provides him with a good living. There are rude and arrogant people out there no doubt. We just have to take our money elsewhere.

Gordon

sucks2beme

High end has to be selective to a point. There's not enough time for
sales people to deal with a bunch of yahoo's that don't know what
they are looking at. It will be a mix of HT and 2 channel, no other way to survive. They can't have John Doe and his 2 kids wandering around touching all the expensive speakers. Remember the CC demo rooms? Every tweeter dome was pushed in.
They will have to set up good listening rooms and make customers want to
listen for a while. They must build long term customers. I have a rep I deal with at a local shop. There was one that snubbed me early on, but this one
hung with me. I didn't drop a grand day one, but I have bought a lot of stuff
from him. A lot of tradein/consignment, and some new stuff.
I would spend more to buy from him than any online shop. That's says
something about the store and the sales rep.

hearingimpared

MANSKITO wrote: »

Being a young person (18 years of age) I can tell you that the audiophile industry at high end retail is simply to costly.

Eh, when I was 18 back in 1973 the price of high end equipement was just as high comparitively speaking. I didn't start off with high end pieces of gear.

MANSKITO wrote: »

I ended up using my local hi-fi ( http://www.upstairsaudio.com/ ) shop as a demo room so i could find out what kind of products i want to buy used or more likely online. .

Sure, why not USE the brick and mortar place to listen to their gear, spend their time and then go out and find the same product on the internet. Don't give your business to the guy who gave his time and knoweldge and money to provide you with the opportunity to listen to his gear. That's one thing wrong with the internet offering. You've got these guys who USE the brick & mortar shops then say **** you very much.

MANSKITO wrote: »

Problem with high end retail is its a niche market and the internet dose a better job and always will.

I call BS there.

MANSKITO wrote: »

The problem is not a lack of young people, its a lack of young people buying stuff (of that nature) from brick and mortar stores.

See above.

MANSKITO wrote: »

Polk and other brands have the young people covered when we go into best buy and hear a comparatively amazing (to the HTIB or $50 computer speakers ) Polk, Bose, Klipsch system that is well under 2K. lol more like 500-1000 at most is what most young people that i know would consider super high end.

No it is not "super high end" or high end at all. As I stated above you have to start somewhere. The way I got the high end equipement was to move up gradually selling off the lower end gear.

MANSKITO wrote: »

Hi-fi shops are good for nothing more then a demo room. (in the eyes of a young person) There an outdated business model. Don't get me wrong I love the advice and experience i can find there its just the most important thing (the price tag) is just not right and will not get my business because of it.

That's a terrible attitude. They offer face-to-face advice and something you can touch plus in most cases will give you a demo piece to try at home in your own rig. Plus you get personal customer service. Your above statement is another example of USING a brick & mortar place then going off and buying cheaper on the internet thus saying **** you very much.

MANSKITO wrote: »

I wish high end retail could match the prices of the internet but they simply can't. The high end of the future will most likely be a .com. I know it kind of sucks for something like speakers because you can't hear them but that is just the way the industry is going. Best buy has the low end and entry level (what young people want) covered.

Again I was young once too and wanted high end gear. Hell I would have settled for mid-fi gear but had to wait until I could build a rig then save up, sell off the rig and move up the ladder.

In my youth there was no internet but there were mail-order establishments such as J & R music who sold low to mid-fi gear cheaper than their brick & mortar counterparts.

The thing to do is buy entry level gear from a brick and mortar joint and build a relationship with them (if availible in your area) then you would start getting discounts and deals from them.

I think a lot of the problem today with the younger generation is INSTANT GRATIFICATION. IMHO!

MANSKITO

hearingimpared wrote: »

In my youth there was no internet but there were mail-order establishments such as J & R music who sold low to mid-fi gear cheaper than their brick & mortar counterparts.

The thing to do is buy entry level gear from a brick and mortar joint and build a relationship with them (if availible in your area) then you would start getting discounts and deals from them.

I think a lot of the problem today with the younger generation is INSTANT GRATIFICATION. IMHO!

Man hearingimpared m8, if i could buy from you ( or some one like you) I would, the man my shop was unwilling or more likely unable to cut me any deal that I could afford. (best he could do was same price but free wire.)

Instant gratification, to that I say bah hum bug. I saved for months to get what I have now.

I am willing to spend a little extra for the same goods to gain the personal touch of a local Hi-Fi shop in fact i love my local one i have spent hours there.
That man sold my dad and MANY of my friends dads there set ups.
He has been selling stereophonic equipment for years and years.

But when the deltas 10-20% somethings even as high as 50% in price it becomes something closer to if i want to eat and have Gass in my car newegg is getting my money.

Just like young people myself included shouldn't think they understand every thing there is to know about the world around them, old people shouldn't think to completely under stand the younger generation even if they where young once. Times change.

hearingimpared

MANSKITO wrote: »

But when the deltas 10-20% somethings even as high as 50% in price it becomes something closer to if i want to eat and have Gass in my car newegg is getting my money.

That's why you start off slowly.:)

MANSKITO wrote: »

Just like young people myself included shouldn't think they understand every thing there is to know about the world around them, old people shouldn't think to completely under stand the younger generation even if they where young once. Times change.

This is true, times do change but ethics, morals, and character shouldn't. I'm not saying you don't have or practice those.:cool:

MANSKITO

hearingimpared wrote: »

That's why you start off slowly.:)



This is true, times do change but ethics, morals, and character shouldn't. I'm not saying you don't have or practice those.:cool:

That is in fact a wonderful point, but my generation did not Dollar vote the american made and locally owned brick and motor goods away.

That happened before my time.

Not saying my generation is Dollar voting any better or worse.

Maybe the High end retail is doomed who knows but I think the real question is will the audio industry suffer for it?

and if so to what extent, as to that i have no idea.

hearingimpared

MANSKITO wrote: »

That is in fact a wonderful point, but my generation did not Dollar vote the american made and locally owned brick and motor goods away.

That happened before my time.

Not saying my generation is Dollar voting any better or worse.

Maybe the High end retail is doomed who knows but I think the real question is will the audio industry suffer for it?

and if so to what extent, as to that i have no idea.

I don't think home entertainment equipment of any kind is ever going to be doomed. I do however think that the high end industry is just if not more thriving than in the past.

MANSKITO

hearingimpared wrote: »

I don't think home entertainment equipment of any kind is ever going to be doomed. I do however think that the high end industry is just if not more thriving than in the past.

I meant brick and mortar stores, high end retail part of it. People will always want to buy speakers just as to where they buy them from has been changing from local to chain to online. Or thats the idea I got from reading this guys thread.

mantis

hearingimpared wrote: »

Reported, spam!:D:p

LOL just adding to the thread of existing places to go. Can't hurt to drop a line here and there. Someone may need something ...:D

tonyb

MANSKITO wrote: »

I meant brick and mortar stores, high end retail part of it. People will always want to buy speakers just as to where they buy them from has been changing from local to chain to online. Or thats the idea I got from reading this guys thread.

Yes and no. Some brick and mortar stores advertise on the internet, so even though you buy gear online, it may very well come from a regular store front.

hearingimpared

mantis wrote: »

LOL just adding to the thread of existing places to go. Can't hurt to drop a line here and there. Someone may need something ...:D

I thought you'd get a kick out of that.

tonyb

A few extra thoughts. High end caters to those with alot of disposable income. In a bad economy, high ticket items will suffer the most. On the flip side though, a bad economy has you doing things for entertainment on the cheap, such as dragging out your old record/cd collection that you may have been too busy to give a spin. After you realize how much you enjoyed it and possibly how badly your system needs upgrading, you make a commitment in the back of your head to update your gear when the economy turns.
Also consider this, if the brick and mortar stores were to go away, would not communities lose some tax revenue ? Once it got to a certain point, how long before big brother starts to tax transactions on the internet then ? To me, seeing and touching gear in the flesh is always beneficial to my buying decision. Don't be so quick to move everything online because you will have no alternatives if that happens. Support your local store whenever possible.

apphd

tonyb wrote: »

Yes and no. Some brick and mortar stores advertise on the internet, so even though you buy gear online, it may very well come from a regular store front.

I think this is the ticket. The small high end store fronts will have to go on line to make it. That gives them the exposure to the bigger market they need, because I do think the number of potential customers is on the decline. But with internet exposure they get, not only the old timers but also the youth. Keep their store front for the locals that are within driving distance (I hope) but generate more revenue online.

They will need to carry some entry level to mid-fi gear to get the younger crowd started (see hearingimpared's posts).

Then they probably belong to some type of a dealers association, which needs to start doing some organized PR to educate about the short comings of highly compressed audio.

cnh

Simple solution...the China Market! China is scheduled to surpass Japan later this year as the largest market in the world for the consumption of LUXURY goods....let's face it....Hi=-End Audio that is not bought used is a LUXURY good.

With a bit more marketing over HERE shop owners could use the Chinese market to subsidize their small, fewer store base in the U.S. It's a thought...this Chinese stuff can WORK both ways if people in the U.S. would start waking up to that fact and exploit the market. The Chinese do not have the vast knowledge base we have in this area/hobby as well as lifetimes of exerience...to them a lot of this is all new.

cnh

sucks2beme

The stuff I'm looking at lately isn't available online. PERIOD.
And if I look used, it's local. What good is it if I find that great deal and UPS busts the crap out of it in shipping. I want to see and hear the gear I'm buying.

LuSh

MANSKITO's position sums up everything one needs to know why Hi-Fi is on the decline. An entire generation has grown up now with wanting to pay nothing. It applies to everything in retail. People will whine and cry about service but will never pay for it. Most High End dealers in North America that have been in business for 20 or so years could really enlighten people but the internet has made it easy to dismiss people. What is annoying is that James1978 (fictional handle) is often wrong in what he posts on the internet but is valued more then a dealer because a dealer is in it for the money.

Dealers for the most part are there to make a profit, if it was all about money they'd have sold insurance...there is passion in what they do, they know much more then you could ever know. More importantly if they give you wrong information they pay for it by not taking business. James1978 goes on with his life and defends his wrong information losing nothing and enjoying 'cyber-fame'. I've seen this too many times to count over the years.

Markup's in audio are typically high and have to remain high in order to build relationships. There is a very risky cost in building relationships, remember that when you want to haggle on a CD player's price. That 'outrageous' markup is built in because audio sales are done in the long term and volume is low. This concept has completely missed a generation who want it now and for cheap.

The high end dealer is now forced to take whatever scraps he has left, what people have wrong however is who's going to lose. Many a dealer in North America are fed up and like their clientele are aging. After losing deal after deal to the internet or insane price drops they've become fed up and have switched industries or have saved enough to retire.

Internet sales will never work, small audio companies rely on dealer networks to 'pass their message' along. Trade shows and marketing don't fit into their paradigm as they're too expensive to maintain over the long haul. Ultimately people like MANSKITO lose the most he simply hasn't realized it yet, perhaps he never will.

Paden501

I think that a large part of the issue is that the Hifi industry needs to learn how to market period.

First of all, I agree with the post above about young people moving too often to lug around the added weight of large speakers and components. At 26 and as a new first time home owner, I can sympathize with the young person living on disposable items, mainly because they don't quite know what the rest of their life is going to look like just yet.

That said, I think that a lot of audio/video consumers have been frustrated by the 'gotta have new widget X, Y, Z' attitude of consumer electronics lately. It seems like just about the time you can afford something, a new, bigger, better toy comes along and makes yours obsolete. I think that has a lot to do with why people are unwilling to spend more substantial amounts of money on their home entertainment systems... they feel like they'll just end up at the same place all over again in a few months/years looking for the next new thing regardless....

The movie/HT experience is a great example of this... in a few short years we've gone from 5.1 DD HT recievers, to HDMI recievers, then to HDMI w/ BD codecs, now 3D TV arrives..... a lot of consumers (myself included) feel like it's a waste to spend a lot of money on a technology just to have it replaced shortly anyway.

This is where Hifi stereo manufacturers need to set themselves apart. The consumer needs to be informed that some Hifi gear is not just a fad, that the technologies can withstand the test of time (especially speakers). I mean heck, I currently have a pair of speakers in my living room that are almost as old as I am, and sound WAY better than anything I can buy from a big-box store... but if I hadn't stumbled upon this message board while digging up info on a google search, I would never have known that was possible. Why is the consumer not being informed that this Hifi world even exists? Before landing here, I didn't even know that companies like Adcom, Rotel, Jolida, etc etc etc even existed! Hifi manufacturers NEED to learn how to market themselves.

Tony M

Paden501,

That is one part I forgot that might have started this whole decline.

Technology has been too fast!;)

Computers were the first.
Audio second
Now it's TVs

Why buy it if there will be something bigger, faster and etc. in 6 months and cheaper.
You might have hit it on the head Paden501.

MANSKITO

LuSh wrote: »

MANSKITO's position sums up everything one needs to know why Hi-Fi is on the decline. An entire generation has grown up now with wanting to pay nothing. It applies to everything in retail. People will whine and cry about service but will never pay for it. Most High End dealers in North America that have been in business for 20 or so years could really enlighten people but the internet has made it easy to dismiss people. What is annoying is that James1978 (fictional handle) is often wrong in what he posts on the internet but is valued more then a dealer because a dealer is in it for the money.

Dealers for the most part are there to make a profit, if it was all about money they'd have sold insurance...there is passion in what they do, they know much more then you could ever know. More importantly if they give you wrong information they pay for it by not taking business. James1978 goes on with his life and defends his wrong information losing nothing and enjoying 'cyber-fame'. I've seen this too many times to count over the years.

Markup's in audio are typically high and have to remain high in order to build relationships. There is a very risky cost in building relationships, remember that when you want to haggle on a CD player's price. That 'outrageous' markup is built in because audio sales are done in the long term and volume is low. This concept has completely missed a generation who want it now and for cheap.

The high end dealer is now forced to take whatever scraps he has left, what people have wrong however is who's going to lose. Many a dealer in North America are fed up and like their clientele are aging. After losing deal after deal to the internet or insane price drops they've become fed up and have switched industries or have saved enough to retire.

Internet sales will never work, small audio companies rely on dealer networks to 'pass their message' along. Trade shows and marketing don't fit into their paradigm as they're too expensive to maintain over the long haul. Ultimately people like MANSKITO lose the most he simply hasn't realized it yet, perhaps he never will.

Dude I'm 18 I don't have the cash yet. You miss understood me, not that I don't want to pay its that I CAN'T pay.

I want to " pay nothing and get it now" Do you know how long it took me fing save up the 1.2k for my gear?!??!?!?!???!?

i make 7.50 an hour and pay full time for school and a car.

You do the math.

I haven't dismissed any one m8, just i Could not swing the in my eyes the MONOLITHIC price tag. A price tag that was so high it was scary. I wanted to do business with the man, he just didn't want or could not do business at the scale i could afford or could hope to save up too. I wanted the best, I wanted realistic reproduction of sound, did I get that no.... But I'm happy with what I got and more Importantly I m damn proud of it.

Your acting like i just went out and bought what ever product was convenient, cheap and in front of my eyes. With no regards to how it preformed, was produced, got there etc....
Do you think that i m just suckered into instant gratification thing or my IQ is abnormally low?

Missed my generation you say?

Did my generation do the Dollar voting that has determined the current state of the market?

The Kids of 90s are just now starting to enter the work force and have money we are inheriting the market that our parents created.

You need to think a little more before you post IMO.

People like me lose..... People who have grown up in middle class america and didn't have large sums of money with our name on it.

You sound like not saying you are, but you sound like an elitist jerk

As to weight and size of the speakers, if I could afford bigger and better speakers I would. Most of my friends are the same way.

hearingimpared

tony millard wrote: »

Paden501,

That is one part I forgot that might have started this whole decline.

Technology has been too fast!;)

Computers were the first.
Audio second
Now it's TVs

Why buy it if there will be something bigger, faster and etc. in 6 months and cheaper.
You might have hit it on the head Paden501.

I'll try to make this short.

HiFi is different than this disposible electronics world we live in. HiFi gear whether it is mid-fi or especially high end is made to last. Look at the mid-fi gear people use on this forum. Twenty year old Adcoms, Carvers, Polks etc. Now go to the high end. Mid-fi and high end gear is R & D'd better, built like tanks with internal components that are made to last almost a lifetime. I have a Spectral pre amp that was made in the 80s that is still chugging along because of it's build quality. I sent it in to have it refreshed and the only things they really needed to replace were a couple of LEDs and some minor adjustments. I have a integrated amp that was built maybe 10 years ago that has tubes in that last 100,000 hours.

I have no need to purchase a phono stage because I am able to use my 25 year old high end preamp. Also take into consideration that if I want to sell it now I can still recoup a good chuck of the change I spent on it. That speaks volumes.

The point is when you get up into the better mid-fi and high end gear you definitely get the quality and your money's worth. Sure it's expensive but there is a reason for it, it's built to last both physically and technology wise.