The future of high end retail

BlueFox

Regardless of our age, we all want the best for the least. One of the nice things about audio is, if you do your research, you can assemble a great sounding system for a modest amount of money. Of course, one can always spend more, and get a better system, but if you cannot be happy with a modest system, I doubt if you can be happy with an expensive system.

As a software engineer I see my job being sent overseas so the company can save a few dollars. I hate this concept, but no matter how much I rant and rave, it is not going to stop. The same is true with the Internet and brick and mortar stores. Other than my TV, and Sunfire amp, in the HT, everything else in my HT and 2 channel system was purchased on the Internet. I have not been in a audio store in decades.

Society is in a transitional phase at this time, and many things we used to take for granted are being turned upside down. To steal a phrase from Oath of Fealty, “Think of it as evolution in action.”

Anyway, even on the Internet good gear cost more than average gear. The big saving for me is convenience.

Just to add to this, I suspect there will always be high-end stores, but they will be few, and located in major population centers. What the Internet does is allow people who live nowhere near an audio store to be able to purchase equipment they can only read about.

MANSKITO

BlueFox wrote: »

Regardless of our age, we all want the best for the least. One of the nice things about audio is, if you do your research, you can assemble a great sounding system for a modest amount of money. Of course, one can always spend more, and get a better system, but if you cannot be happy with a modest system, I doubt if you can be happy with an expensive system.

As a software engineer I see my job being sent overseas so the company can save a few dollars. I hate this concept, but no matter how much I rant and rave, it is not going to stop. The same is true with the Internet and brick and mortar stores. Other than my TV, and Sunfire amp, in the HT, everything else in my HT and 2 channel system was purchased on the Internet. I have not been in a audio store in decades.

Society is in a transitional phase at this time, and many things we used to take for granted are being turned upside down. To steal a phrase from Oath of Fealty, “Think of it as evolution in action.”

Anyway, even on the Internet good gear cost more than average gear. The big saving for me is convenience.

Just to add to this, I suspect there will always be high-end stores, but they will be few, and located in major population centers. What the Internet does is allow people who live nowhere near an audio store to be able to purchase equipment they can only read about.

Thanks for saying that and not just blaming it on the young people of the world.

tonyb

Maybe some should identify what Hi-end is, to them. Part of the allure to a brick and mortar store, for the upper end, is service. Picking up the phone and having a guy drop off a 5 g piece of gear and install it. Have problems ? They can come out to troubleshoot or replace a faulty piece. Can you get that service online ? From a place you bought a piece of gear 4 states away ? It's about building relationships, not always about price, you salesmen here should know this.

danz1906

tonyb wrote: »

Maybe some should identify what Hi-end is, to them. Part of the allure to a brick and mortar store, for the upper end, is service. Picking up the phone and having a guy drop off a 5 g piece of gear and install it. Have problems ? They can come out to troubleshoot or replace a faulty piece. Can you get that service online ? From a place you bought a piece of gear 4 states away ? It's about building relationships, not always about price, you salesmen here should know this.

Agreed, Here in the Chicagoland area we are losing most of our Hi-Fi stores.
Service and in-home auditions are very important!

Paden501

hearingimpared wrote: »

I'll try to make this short.

HiFi is different than this disposible electronics world we live in. HiFi gear whether it is mid-fi or especially high end is made to last. Look at the mid-fi gear people use on this forum. Twenty year old Adcoms, Carvers, Polks etc. Now go to the high end. Mid-fi and high end gear is R & D'd better, built like tanks with internal components that are made to last almost a lifetime. I have a Spectral pre amp that was made in the 80s that is still chugging along because of it's build quality. I sent it in to have it refreshed and the only things they really needed to replace were a couple of LEDs and some minor adjustments. I have a integrated amp that was built maybe 10 years ago that has tubes in that last 100,000 hours.

.......

The point is when you get up into the better mid-fi and high end gear you definitely get the quality and your money's worth. Sure it's expensive but there is a reason for it, it's built to last both physically and technology wise.

I knew somebody wouuld respond like this.

Ok here's the deal. We all know this. The point that I'm trying to make is that the general consumer doesn't know this. Why? Because nobody is telling them. Hifi manufactures and dealers have done such a piss-poor job of marketing themselves that the average Joe doesn't even know they exist, let alone that their products are great and have long-lasting appeal.

Furthermore, when a general consumer does see Hifi gear either online or B&M, their first response to it is usually something like "why would I pay this much for this product, when it's just going to be obsolete when it leaves the store".... Whether or not this is true!!!

Product obsoletism is such a huge part of American society that consumers are rightfully skeptical to purchase anything 'high dollar'. Think about it. Our cars lose 10-20% of their value the day we drive them off the lot. Our computers are obsolete within months of their purchase, TV, DVD/BD, and other consumer electronics change at least yearly... I could go on and on. The average consumer has no reason to believe that Hifi stereo would be any different.

Whether Hifi stereo dealers change from B&M stores to an online business model is not nearly as important as the bigger question of how will they convince new customers that their products are different from nearly everything else we consume in our lives.

Tony M

hearingimpared wrote: »

I'll try to make this short.

HiFi is different than this disposible electronics world we live in. HiFi gear whether it is mid-fi or especially high end is made to last. Look at the mid-fi gear people use on this forum. Twenty year old Adcoms, Carvers, Polks etc. Now go to the high end. Mid-fi and high end gear is R & D'd better, built like tanks with internal components that are made to last almost a lifetime. I have a Spectral pre amp that was made in the 80s that is still chugging along because of it's build quality. I sent it in to have it refreshed and the only things they really needed to replace were a couple of LEDs and some minor adjustments. I have a integrated amp that was built maybe 10 years ago that has tubes in that last 100,000 hours.

I have no need to purchase a phono stage because I am able to use my 25 year old high end preamp. Also take into consideration that if I want to sell it now I can still recoup a good chuck of the change I spent on it. That speaks volumes.

The point is when you get up into the better mid-fi and high end gear you definitely get the quality and your money's worth. Sure it's expensive but there is a reason for it, it's built to last both physically and technology wise.

I've been tring to tell people these same points for YEARS. Alot of younger people (NOT ALL NOW, Manskito and your friends,I applaud you guys and gals if some are female) look at me with wonderment when they hear an amp or speakers are 30 yrs. old or so. I sold ALOT of vintage gear last yr. and I promoted this hobby the best I could. Great gear for great prices. I can't afford Classe' or McIntosh gear and neither could my customers(if you want to call them that) but some like myself are aware they exist and that's a start.

Now this past year, people would call on receivers I had listed and say,

Do you still have this? yes I do Does it have HDMI inputs? no OK, thanks anyway, bye.

Alot want the newest technology no mater what. A now 6 yr. old1200.00 receiver for 250.00 doesn't matter AT ALL.:eek:

Two channel listening through speakers is going the way of headphones. excuse me, Ear buds. Even Lady GaGa promotes her own buds!

Like I said before, We know the difference that can be heard using high-end gear. Alot don't. I'm tring to show people and I can give a few names of people who have heard my two channel sound systems and went home and got on Ebay and Craigs list to find the same Vintage gear.Some bought their own SDA-SRSs .

Now for the Newer High-end gear and speakers at the Stores, I have only met a handful that could afford it. I just don't run in those circles. I don't despise them either and with wealth comes alot of other sacrifices.When I was going to inherit some money I did go and audition some Classe' gear and B&W speakers. Because I knew about them from my hobby.The store owner turned my stomach later on with another matter.He didn't even know what he was doing and frankly he didn't really care about my satisfaction.I heard from another or two he treated them the same.:(

Because of Bose, is another reason I aquired so much older big speakers. Surround sound is a reason I aquired alot of older receivers, amps and related components.Cd players are a dime a dozen now and even regular DVD players are falling into this OLD technology wayside.

I said earlier, Thanks to the high-end manufactures for still pursuing this quest for the best. But even "The best speaker in the world" manufacturer came out with version II a yr. later. I'm glad I couldn't afford the first version

Well I have three high-end stores in my area and I think they are still OK financially. I need to visit them.....;)

apphd

Some good thoughts here. A couple have touched on the marketing aspect of it. When you have Apple promoting I-Pod tech., celebrities putting there name on products like ear buds, and MTV promoting the new and cheap tech. to the younger customer. While you have the high end only marketing in the circles that have the customers that all ready know about them it is no wonder so many never have heard of the likes of Classe, B&W, Mark Levinson, and the list goes on.

Tony you have the right idea with trying to promote from within our own little circles, that is the only way many will ever be exposed to what is possible.

Then as many have mentioned, PRICE. I'm not sure about you all, but I have migrated from middle of the middle class, to the bottom of the middle class or top of the poverty line over the last 30 years. With a family to support cash for luxury items become much harder to come by. I know there is better out there, and I know barring a lottery win it will always be out of reach, so compromises need to be made and priorities set.

So I still think the dealers and manufactures need to do a better job at marketing (adding cost ) to try and decrease prices through more volume. It is going to be a rocky road, some will disappear, some will survive, hopefully thrive.

markmarc

One of the things we all forget is that in the last 20 years the amount things that we consider critical to our lives has increased. Cable/satellite TV, cell phone, Starbucks, dining out. All of these items cost money, lessening our buying power. Add on the inflation rate of insurance due to our increasingly litigeous (sp) society, and it's no wonder we stream towards Walmart, Best Buy, etc., seeking out the lowest price instead of the best quality/value.

rcrook317

most stores are setup wrong imo.
when you have 2-3 demo rooms with whatever THEY choose to setup,no actual products on shelf,no variety,just 1 rig per room that THEY decided to build,its hard to make an opinion or hear a variety of gear.
Plus when the cheapest pair of speakers you have are $5-6k a pr your not attempting to sell to the average younger guy who wants a nice stereo.

Amherst

markmarc wrote: »

One of the things we all forget is that in the last 20 years the amount things that we consider critical to our lives has increased. Cable/satellite TV, cell phone, Starbucks, dining out. All of these items cost money, lessening our buying power. Add on the inflation rate of insurance due to our increasingly litigeous (sp) society, and it's no wonder we stream towards Walmart, Best Buy, etc., seeking out the lowest price instead of the best quality/value.

The point you make is a valid one, but I believe it really misses the mark as to the declining average income in this country.
Wages versus the dollar valuation have been on the decline since the late sixties/early seventies (I'd have to look up that stat again), this is irregardless of what is purchased. Also to be considered is the average wage is falling.
Eventually the crumbling leads to diminished buying power, reaching the point of serious crunch. Upscale toys have to go!

Tony M

markmarc wrote: »

One of the things we all forget is that in the last 20 years the amount things that we consider critical to our lives has increased. Cable/satellite TV, cell phone, Starbucks, dining out. All of these items cost money, lessening our buying power. Add on the inflation rate of insurance due to our increasingly litigeous (sp) society, and it's no wonder we stream towards Walmart, Best Buy, etc., seeking out the lowest price instead of the best quality/value.

That's some more good reasons I agree with.;)

I've also had two people just ignore what I tried to teach them and get a cheap Htib and the other I'm not sure of but doubt highly it is of high quality.
Now that's ignorance or $ perswading the end result. Or both.

mopar paul

This is a great post and addresses something I have just experienced. This not only appies to audio, it applies to everything. I restore old musclecars and the newer generation cannot afford them, so many give up and chose a import car that "looks" fast. I sympathyze with them!
I'm 37 and my fiance is 27. All she knows of is the Ipod or "docking stations", and had never heard quality until she met me 5 years ago. Now I realize females are not into this stuff like guys, but 2 channel has not been a hot topic for years. Everything is geared differently. When we went looking at 2 high end stores this weekend she couldn't believe there were amps costing as much as her new Mustang!
Anyway, I love to see young people who are into higher end audio gear. MANSKITO, dont give up your dream. When I was 15 the POLK SDA SRS had just came out and there was NO WAY I was affording those. But here, 22 years later, I have a set and just threw down 5k on new gear, so hang in there and be patient. Dont let ANYONE discourage your love of quality sound. My parents and friends always thought I was nuts Even though I have dozens of friends that I hang out with, none share my passion for quality sound.

tonyb

You guys are going off in the wrong direction. Think future of HIGH END, not consumer electronics in general. Also part of HIGH END gear, is the journey getting there. For some it may take the better part of a lifetime to be able to afford some of this stuff. It's the baby steps,the journey to high end that makes you appreciate what good sound is,and what great sound is capable of.

NJPOLKER

tonyb wrote: »

Maybe some should identify what Hi-end is, to them. Part of the allure to a brick and mortar store, for the upper end, is service. Picking up the phone and having a guy drop off a 5 g piece of gear and install it. Have problems ? They can come out to troubleshoot or replace a faulty piece. Can you get that service online ? From a place you bought a piece of gear 4 states away ? It's about building relationships, not always about price, you salesmen here should know this.[/QUOTE]

There is a big difference between cost and price! It's sad most people don't understand that.

tonyb

I'm sure most understand cost and price. Relationships matter also, not just the net cost to you.

NJPOLKER

tonyb wrote: »

I'm sure most understand cost and price. Relationships matter also, not just the net cost to you.

If you say so but I really doubt most people know there is a difference or what the difference is.
Relationships not only matter but are a lot of fun. The dumb asses of today are really missing out on things like that.

NJPOLKER

my dad is the ****

NJPOLKER

^^^^^^ was my little girl, Kate

hearingimpared

NJPOLKER wrote: »

my dad is ****

I fixed it for her!:eek::D:p

Tony M

There is no journey from Ipod to krell..The road dosn't exist.

hearingimpared

tony millard wrote: »

There is no journey from Ipod to krell..The road dosn't exist.

That is funny! LOL!

Montoya

The Hifi places I have been to here in Houston are really rude. Customer service has gone the way of the dodo and I think that is a major part of the problem. I would rather buy off the Internet than deal with some rude **** who thinks his **** don't smell. The people at best buy magnolia are like that and I don't even think of them as hifi half the time they don't know anything about what they sale either.

apphd

Zero wrote: »

As with many things, the root of the problem often boils down to money. It is important to note that high end audio hardly even qualifies as a bona fide industry. In its true form, its little more than a group of hi-fi nuts selling to other hi-fi nuts. Sure a handful companies may net a few million on a good year, but even a fresh pharmaceutical company rakes in more money per year than damn near every high end business put together. In the grand scheme of things, theres hardly money in the pot for anyone involved in high end to pull from. Many audiophiles like to sit back and criticize dealers and manufacturers for failing to educate the public, yet have no real clue as to the sheer amount of resources (ka-ching) it would take to even remotely touch the surface of such a campaign. People seem to believe that manufacturers/dealers are just sitting on a pile of cash and are doing nothing more than playing naked slip and slide with it all. Sorry boys, but it ain't that simple.

Unfortunately, this lack of revenue translates into a lack of (currently known) means to educate joe public about attaining higher quality sound. Many boutique dealers survive by upgrading existing customers into better and better gear while still clinging to "word by mouth" sales. Many manufacturers now survive by focusing less on the audiophile market and more on the professional/decor/etc.. markets.

When you then consider how the average modern day consumer prioritizes their money with all of the electronic goodies out there, there's very room left for hi-fi. The big challenge that anyone in the business faces is how to possibly make room for it. Most people love listening to music. It's just a matter of finding an effective means to allow someone to hear their music in a way that they never thought was possible, and all at an affordable price too. Companies like Best Buy, Polk Audio, and Klipsch (to name a few), do a pretty decent job at making/showcasing decent quality gear for the average consumer - but it's still not enough to make the average person aware of its existence, not to mention that a customer experience per best buy/magnolia store varies greatly with the (often very young) sales staff.

With out a doubt there is very little profit to afford the resources for marketing. But what money is spent (by manufactures) goes to the places that reach the most hi-fi users. Makes sense for the most part, except those people seeing it are probably already aware of the product. I think there is the need to increase the size of the future market just to sustain a status quo for the long haul. In the past many knew of hi-fi / high end, but maybe could not afford it. Now I think not only has the number of those that can afford it shrinking, but the number of those that know it exists is shrinking as well. If this trend continues I don't think the future holds much promise. Things change and evolve, I'm sure the manufactures of stage coaches tried to hang in there as long as they could as well. But they were bucking a better technology. I don't think that's the case with hi-fi audio, or we're all just nuts and should go get our I-pods and ear buds now.

Tony M

tony millard wrote: »

There is no journey from Ipod to krell..The road doesn't exist.

Fixed

smglbrth

Boy, many thoughts on this subject! You know, I think it's about education, actually. Education of what is good (sound-wise) and what isn't. Take my own family for example. My wife first heard good music when she met me. At first she could care less about audio as I think of audio. As long as she heard music she didn't care what it exactly sounded like, as long as she could hear it, it was good enough for her. After I sat her down and had her listen carefully for clarity, depth and the little things that make up musical compositions (read cymbal taps, breath sounds and such) she couldn't believe the difference. THEN, she understood why I spent money on this hobby. Now when she listens to music anywhere else besides our living room she admits it sucks. Now, she's not an audio nut and would never spend the $ herself but understands why I do.

My oldest son is 15. He's into the MP3 Ipod thing. He's read how music sounds just as good in this compressed format as anywhere else, and tried to convince me, mind you. Well, dad wasn't going to let that fly so we had a chat about audio. I explained to him what the difference was with the formats and why I have purchased what I have. After that we sat down and LISTENED. He couldn't believe the difference in the sounds he was hearing and what he WASN'T hearing before. Now he's a convert! He can't wait until he can start spending his hard earned money on good audio too!

I think those of us that are older here understand that you need to work up the audio chain over time. Heck, for most of us we never get where we would actually like to be but it's fun constantly trying! Better equipment will come with TIME (hence the "instantaneous generation").

I've thought many times how the internet and computers are wonderful things BUT it's makes some us impatient (myself included). We don't have to wait up to six weeks for a catalog anymore. We don't have to do our own research, on the 10 bucks we budgeted for, and make that trip to the HI-FI audio store which is over an hour away. I didn't grow up with computers, the internet, cell phones, cable or satellite tv (heck, we could only get three channels, maybe that's all there were!), and if you wanted to learn about history you had to look it up in the encyclopedia or go to the library. I grew up farming so that trip was put on hold until we all went to town! One of the best things for me when I first got into audio was waiting for the Stereo Review magazine to show up because that's how I found out about good audio (back then).

Technology is good in a way but can also be bad. Sometimes you just can't improve on something. If that were not true just look at speakers from Polk. Why would the "older" generation black speakers still be as popular today and more so with some of us? Matthew Polk knew what he was doing right from the start.:D

cnh

I know after all this discussion this is going to sound a bit off...but bear with me.

When you buy a car you get a 3-6 year loan...and put down a deposit. When you buy a house you don't expect it to depreciate (in a NORMAL market--it's an investment). When you take out student loans to complete a degree that's not a waste either...and banks will negotiate decent terms.

I could add to this list...but what I'm getting at is that High End audio...should be looked at from a similar perspective and people should consider how much use and value they are getting in Years not instantaneously..Oh that's TOO much?

If one could educate people and provide a funding mechanism to buy Audio like you buy the above....perhaps more people would be willing to carry a 5 year loan to have a great system?

i know in this economy that sounds 'crazy' but the downturn won't last forever.

cnh

apphd

smglbrth wrote: »

Boy, many thoughts on this subject! You know, I think it's about education, actually. Education of what is good (sound-wise) and what isn't. Take my own family for example. My wife first heard good music when she met me. At first she could care less about audio as I think of audio. As long as she heard music she didn't care what it exactly sounded like, as long as she could hear it, it was good enough for her. After I sat her down and had her listen carefully for clarity, depth and the little things that make up musical compositions (read cymbal taps, breath sounds and such) she couldn't believe the difference. THEN, she understood why I spent money on this hobby. Now when she listens to music anywhere else besides our living room she admits it sucks. Now, she's not an audio nut and would never spend the $ herself but understands why I do.

My oldest son is 15. He's into the MP3 Ipod thing. He's read how music sounds just as good in this compressed format as anywhere else, and tried to convince me, mind you. Well, dad wasn't going to let that fly so we had a chat about audio. I explained to him what the difference was with the formats and why I have purchased what I have. After that we sat down and LISTENED. He couldn't believe the difference in the sounds he was hearing and what he WASN'T hearing before. Now he's a convert! He can't wait until he can start spending his hard earned money on good audio too!

I think those of us that are older here understand that you need to work up the audio chain over time. Heck, for most of us we never get where we would actually like to be but it's fun constantly trying! Better equipment will come with TIME (hence the "instantaneous generation").

I've thought many times how the internet and computers are wonderful things BUT it's makes some us impatient (myself included). We don't have to wait up to six weeks for a catalog anymore. We don't have to do our own research, on the 10 bucks we budgeted for, and make that trip to the HI-FI audio store which is over an hour away. I didn't grow up with computers, the internet, cell phones, cable or satellite tv (heck, we could only get three channels, maybe that's all there were!), and if you wanted to learn about history you had to look it up in the encyclopedia or go to the library. I grew up farming so that trip was put on hold until we all went to town! One of the best things for me when I first got into audio was waiting for the Stereo Review magazine to show up because that's how I found out about good audio (back then).

Technology is good in a way but can also be bad. Sometimes you just can't improve on something. If that were not true just look at speakers from Polk. Why would the "older" generation black speakers still be as popular today and more so with some of us? Matthew Polk knew what he was doing right from the start.:D

Lots of good stuff here. It points out a very good fact that we can't just tell someone about sound, we also need to let them hear what we are talking about. The other end of this is the vast majority of people, even when they have the opportunity to be educated and hear it, still will not care what it sounds like as long as they hear something. So hi-end audio will always hang on a shoe thread as far as survival.

Another thought I had, that I'm not quite sure of, is has entry level mid-fi closed the gap a little price/performance wise that more are willing to stop at that point now, compared to the gear of the seventies? Overall I think most would agree that the build quality has dropped on the newer (entry level/mid-fi) gears, but has the SQ of the receiver and speakers that someone would start the journey with improved enough that more people stop at that point?

doctorcilantro

I think things are alive and well! ; )



http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accsrack&1269281679&/Copulare-Mozart-Stand-the-best

BlueFox

doctorcilantro wrote: »

I think things are alive and well! ; )



http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accsrack&1269281679&/Copulare-Mozart-Stand-the-best

For $17,000, used, Mozart had better autographed it.

hearingimpared

doctorcilantro wrote: »

I think things are alive and well! ; )



http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accsrack&1269281679&/Copulare-Mozart-Stand-the-best

BlueFox wrote: »

For $17,000, used, Mozart had better autographed it.

. . . and include the turntable!:eek: