New for Bi-wire

HBombToo

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
Hbomb,

but if I go with one separate what next? More Separates:D Not having the degree of sound stage problem you had but just do not have that WOW factor!

I guess its all about addiction and what direction you want to go but I will say this: " I'd rather have an addiction to this hobby than drugs!" but very similar in my case; however, beer is a really good mix.

Ensure you have your speaker positioned correctly for good image. There have been many discussions on the forum regarding this then take a hard look at seperates. For me I like to make a change then I don't touch it for a while. Don't make to many at the same time or you will confuse the intent if ya catch my drift.

HBomb

danger boy

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
Hbomb,
Danger boy,

Like you said you like the way they sound wired top and bottom, how much bass are you getting out of the subs on the 1000's I do not seem to get much at all.

Watched HP chamber of secrets last night though and the 450 was rockin, more bass frequency than I remembered in the first!!

reeltrouble1,

I have real good bass from the 1000's. what do you have the bass on each speaker set too? I have mine at about 1 o'clock. did you check to see if the woofer is turned on? :rolleyes: it has an on/off switch on the back amp plate. do you have your 1000s set to large or small on your receiver? On my receiver... there isn't much difference between small and large setting. But traditionally the small setting will give you less bass... because it routes the bass to your sub.

crank the dial on the rear of the 1000 and see if the bass increases when you do that. but you should have plenty of bass out of those bad boys.

good luck.. and come back here and let us know the results.

reeltrouble1

Dangerboy,

I am getting very little bass from the 1000's, sure there is a little, but weak. I understand about the switches on the back and have set the speakers to large, they are powered up, to tell you the truth I really had not noticed this before, the 450 I have pushes good bass, so it was filling the room, one day I turned it off and wham very little bass coming from the 1000's. I have had them under a year. Thing is, it is unlikey that both of them would go out at the same time.

bionicmushroom

http://www.sonicdesign.se/biwire.html

Just thought I'd share this...I know nothing about nothing. I thought it looked good and some of you may be interested.

polkatese

bionicmushroom, good reading! thanks

danger boy

reeltrouble1,
when you move the knob on the rear of each 1000 does the bass increase at all? is it possible that you have one of them wired out of phase? you might want to double check your connections on each speaker. if you accidently crossed the red and black wires.. that will cause a loss in bass. just my .02 worth

reeltrouble1

Thanks Bionic that was a read, seems the guy try's to give a balanced representation of bi-wiring. Both the pros and cons.
Thing is that it is about the music, not the individual pieces of equipment.

Dangerboy,

The crossing of the wires would have been just to easy of a fix, but thanks for the reminder. There is bass in these 1000's just not what I want. If I shut everything else down speaker wise and just go stereo there is bass coming from them. Guess I just got used to the 450 pumping out. The powered subs in the 1000's are just not that strong. After reading up on the subject I think I am going to bi-wire instead of bi-amp. Now which bi-wires? Got what I thought was a pretty good deal out of guy in Toronto but then found out the wires were the S-series, they have four conducters but not typically advertised as bi-wires. Have any opinion about them?

polkatese

Originally posted by reeltrouble1
Now which bi-wires? Got what I thought was a pretty good deal out of guy in Toronto but then found out the wires were the S-series, they have four conducters but not typically advertised as bi-wires. Have any opinion about them?

reeltrouble1,
Are you talking about this cable:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3021349483&category=14966

if so, he uses this monster cable:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004Y2W1/102-6542148-2277729?v=glance&s=electronics&n=507846&me=standard&vi=pictures&img=14#more-pictures

I bought some custom length from him last year, still uses them for the surround channels. It's actually very decent for the price. I have no complaint, the rest I used signalcable biwire. Haven't done any shootout between the two. He is also a good trader...

danger boy

Originally posted by reeltrouble1

Dangerboy,

The crossing of the wires would have been just to easy of a fix, but thanks for the reminder. There is bass in these 1000's just not what I want. If I shut everything else down speaker wise and just go stereo there is bass coming from them. Guess I just got used to the 450 pumping out. The powered subs in the 1000's are just not that strong. After reading up on the subject I think I am going to bi-wire instead of bi-amp. Now which bi-wires? Got what I thought was a pretty good deal out of guy in Toronto but then found out the wires were the S-series, they have four conducters but not typically advertised as bi-wires. Have any opinion about them?

reeltrouble1,

are you trying to replace your 450 with the subs in the 1000's? if so.. they will not be able to match the 450. not even close. the 450 I think has a 12" woofer. while the 1000's have a 6.5" woofer. the sub was meant to be driven as a subwoofer, while the 1000's are meant to be used a fronts.

The 1000's should compliment the 450 in terms of LFE. not overpower or try to match it's bass response.

PETERNG

Hell, I gave it a try anyway; here is what I've done:

I have a pair of the RP-20P, the CS-1000P for the main and center. One of my relative works part time at BB, and for that reason I can order anything directly from MC in CA for 60% off of retail, good enough for me to justify the cost of the wire. I bi-wired the main with the M series MC speaker cable and also for the heck of doing the whole thing, I bi-wired the center speaker also. Now let take a look at the results:

Does the system sound better? Hell yes, does it justify for the cost of the speaker cable? for me, yes, for those who paid the full price, no, I don't think so and I can tell you this: save your money and replace the cheap speaker cable you got with the decent one, then replace the lousy jumper with a good short MC 10 gauge speaker cable between the high and low inputs, your speakers will sound as good as the bi-wired method, save you at least 50% of the cable costs.

Now when I bi-wire the bedroom system with the two RT-55i speakers, that system comes back to live, no question about it, sound 300% better than before.

For all the rear channel speakers, I used MC 10 gauge cable, these mondo cable really do a good job to compensate for the long distance, sound a whole lot better than those skinny cheap looking cable from RS.

Those THX MC cable for the sub are really rock too.

reeltrouble1

Originally posted by PETERNG


Does the system sound better? Hell yes, does it justify for the cost of the speaker cable? for me, yes, for those who paid the full price, no, I don't think so and I can tell you this: save your money and replace the cheap speaker cable you got with the decent one, then replace the lousy jumper with a good short MC 10 gauge speaker cable between the high and low inputs, your speakers will sound as good as the bi-wired method, save you at least 50% of the cable costs.

PETERNG,

I am a little confused by your response. Are you saying that based on cost for improvement of the musical sound bi-wire is not worth the effort? You said "Hell yes" that the system sounds better??? So if you can buy some used cables at say 40% of the original cost it would be worth it? If you just jumped the cable from the high to the low what type connection would you go with? Bare? Banana? Spade? What type of weld if you use a connector?

F1nut

reeltrouble,

This hobby is always a matter of opinion. That said, I'll take bi-wiring over single runs anytime and believe in buying the best the one can afford. Finding good deals on used wire is a great way to upgrade to better stuff than one could afford new.

IMO, for jumpers use spades and solder the joint. If your posts are gold plated, you should use gold plated spades.

PETERNG

Originally posted by reeltrouble1


PETERNG,

I am a little confused by your response. Are you saying that based on cost for improvement of the musical sound bi-wire is not worth the effort? You said "Hell yes" that the system sounds better??? So if you can buy some used cables at say 40% of the original cost it would be worth it? If you just jumped the cable from the high to the low what type connection would you go with? Bare? Banana? Spade? What type of weld if you use a connector?

Yes, I said in my situation because the RP-20P in not intended for bi-wire according to the mfg specs, but I go ahead and did it any way. As I said: may be for those who have to paid 100% retail cost of the high-end cable to do this upgrade need to justify for the cost of doing this. Would you willing to spend $300 for just a pair of MC M cable to do this? I don’t think so; I paid less than 40% of the retail cost so I think it's reasonable for me to do this. In your case, if you want to upgrade and don't want to spend a lot of money(your speaker was not designed for bi-wire, at least according to Polk), the best way to do this is to get a pair of MC F1 (as good as any others) and replace the jumper by a short MC 10 gauge cable, straight, no need for connector (spade or banana), just connect them through the hole and tighten the caps. If you want to go the bi-wire round, then try it, but I doubt that your system will sound any better.

I used MC banana gold connectors for all of my connections.

Good luck

gacole2000

F1

When you say "solder the joint" exactly what does this mean, and how do you do it? Should you use a certain solder?

Thanks- Greg

RuSsMaN

WBT 4% silver solder

F1nut

Greg,

It means, solder the wire to the connector, be it spade, banana, etc. I prefer Cardas Quad Eutectic solder. Start by stripping just enough insulation at the end of the wire to fit the length of the hole in the connector. Gently twist the exposed wire, insert into the connector, apply heat from a solder gun and apply solder. As soon as the solder flows (melts) remove heat. Do not move the soldered piece until it cools (matter of seconds), a good solder joint will look smooth and shiny.

reeltrouble1

F1nut,

Thanks for your explanation. Can you tell me why solder? How is this better than a cold weld? I just would like to know.

gacole2000

Yes, thank you F1. I have IXOS banana plugs and they are 2 screw set and DEEP. So you're saying that I should not worry about sticking them into the connector, simply solder as deep as my iron will allow? Further, where can you buy the solder you mentioned?

Thanks again- Greg

F1nut

I don't know much about cold welding other than it's done under high pressure. PS Audio uses cold welds and then solders it. Is it overkill? Maybe, but those guys wouldn't do it if they didn't think it had a benefit.

Greg, I'm not sure I follow your question. How deep are we talking? Can you post a pic (or link) of the IXOS banana in question? You can get the solder at, http://www.percyaudio.com/ or http://www.soniccraft.com/parts.htm. It isn't cheap, but it the best I've ever used.

reeltrouble1

Jeez, so much to learn!!! Maybe I was better off just having my head in the sand:D . I thought a cold weld was when you changed the shape of the metal by some type of crimping creating an an airtight bond.

Ok, well moving along. I see some MC component video cables that are strand wire and some other brands that are solid wire. Which type do you think is better for your component video lines?

mantis

My transparent components for sale in the fleamarket......

RG6 or RG59 or even BNC cable is the best way to send video..true 75ohm is needed with great shielding.......

Transparent got you covered and for less then half price......

F1nut

Ok, more info on the cold weld. It actually is done with so much pressure that it fuses the metals together. Why solder after that? Added insurance of the perfect joint, but none of that creates an airtight seal. The joint must be hermetically sealed to be truly airtight.
As for video cables, sorry not into that too much, but it looks like Dan has that shamelessly covered.......j/k....maybe.

reeltrouble1

I know this thread has gotten a little long, but earlier in it I was asking about the bass sound level from my RT1000 fronts. Now the Onk manual says that frequencies under 80hz are sent to the sub LFE when the speakers are set to small. I have them set to large.

My question is, With the fronts set to large does this mean that the ONK is sending the full freq. range to the fronts and the receivers factory setting lfe to the sub? Or in some way is part of the frequencies lower end not being sent to the fronts even though they are set to large?

I am using the ONK's preout subwoofer line level to the sub and have it plugged into the unfiltered line in. :rolleyes:

Airplay355

wel im bored and theres nothing to do so since we are on the subject i think ill bi-wire my rti100s and seee if it makes a difference, even though technically you can't or maybe you can. who knows lets try and see which one i like more. who cares if its not truly biwired but sounds better. and can i have some fries russ, im hungry.

Airplay355

well maybe not, i took a good look at my receiver and laughed at the thought of fitting two 12 guage wires in the back or that thing..... no way would that work so i had another idea i hooked them up to the LFE, i did everything right and still it sounded absolutely horrible. the bass was deep every now and then but only when i cranked it, both the amp in the tower and my receiver. that was one of the worst ideas i think i've ever had as far as stereos go. maybe its my receiver, it is a pretty big embarrassment in the 5 channel world. oh well, sry i couldnt help decide about the bi-wiring argumet haahaa

Tour2ma

Airplay,
You've got your own bi-wire thread going. Boredom is not a reason to jump in RT1’s thread when he has a fresh question on the table. This thread is long past its original bi-wire discussion.

RT1,
Not gospel here, but I’ll put out my understanding for a check by those that know the answer to your question for sure.

First, “speakers to large” does mean that the full signal is sent to them. I am sure of this. As for the signal to the sub, I believe that the AVR’s crossover is still filtering out frequencies above set point.

Second, I believe LFE does have additional information that is not in the output to any of the other speakers regardless of their large/ small setting.

Let’s see how I did and we’ll learn together.

Tour2ma

RT1,
Turns out I was pretty close in my understanding, although it turns out that with speakers set to large, the sub might only be left with the LFE signal.
See Doc's write-ups near the bottom here:
http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9510

reeltrouble1

Thanks Tour2,

After reading what the good Dr. Spec had to say I believe by going large on the Mains they get a full range of frequency and send the lower Hz to there powered sub at the filter point. The sub gets all the lfe since it is hooked to this preout and anything beneath 80 hz or less or maybe not ?????:rolleyes: :eek:


Was the lfe put in for those special movie effects only, does it work any differently when a regular cd is putting its stereo track through it.??

Should I move this to bass forum???

HBombToo

I cross at 60 for music. I like the sound of my Polks better but I really like the rumble of my subs for HT. I cross at 80 on HT.

1/2 Twin

Tour2ma

Way I read what Doc was saying is that the low freq info may or may not go to the sub depending on whwether or not the AVR has setting to route "LFE + Mains" to the sub.

And yes, this is turning into more of a bass discussion, so a move may be in order.