New for Bi-wire

reeltrouble1

OK so I have read the Bi-wire posts till my head hurts (and my wallet) still I think I need to do it. Running an Onk 787 to RT1000i mains, CSi400 center, FXi50 surrounds, want to wire the fronts and center (ok you cannot truly bi-wire the RT1000, but I want to run separate wires to the top and bottom posts) need to make 15-20 ft runs for the set up I have.

Saw some wires called Canare on e-bay anybody ever use these, did not see them in the posts so that made me wary to start, but besides the brands I looked up that are mentioned throughout the threads what do I know? Could start with monster? Would like to stay around 500.00 to begin with.

Any suggestions?

mantis

Never used Canare wire.What the hell give it a whirl and see how it sounds.
I used to own the rt1000's and I found that using Bi wires sounded better then just a single feed and leaving the jumpers in.
Wire is a big topic.Like everyone else,you have to take the plunge and see for yourself.

F1nut

I'm confused about your statement, "ok you cannot truly bi-wire the RT1000, but I want to run separate wires to the top and bottom posts." Bi-wire is running two wires (+/-) to the top posts and two wires (+/-) to the bottom posts and removing the jumpers. Splain yourself.

HBombToo

Originally posted by F1nut
I'm confused about your statement, "ok you cannot truly bi-wire the RT1000, but I want to run separate wires to the top and bottom posts." Bi-wire is running two wires (+/-) to the top posts and two wires (+/-) to the bottom posts and removing the jumpers. Splain yourself.

I think he has been reading through all the arguments regarding bi-wiring a powered tower....

HBomb

danger boy

i still think you CAN biwire the rt1000i's. why not? I Monster biwired mine. and they sound really great now.

I also remember someone on here who biwired their speakers using IXOS biwire cables.. do a search on IXOS and see if you find the thread.

reeltrouble1

Thanks for your help an input. Yes DB I read all those posts about bi-wiring a powered tower, dont want to start that one again, but the knowledge of how it works was interesting. I am going to bi-wire my RT1000i mains and CSi400 center to start with.

Have to think about the Canare bi-wires since no one here seems to have used it. Like most its easy for me to obsess over these decisions. But thats half the fun of it.

Well its all good

polkatese

I used signalcable speaker bi-wires (www.signalcable.com), I would think this is either belden or canare based. You can call Frank at SignalCable and check with him who makes the speaker wire...

BeginnersLuck

Because you seem to already have made up your mind, I won't try to convince you otherwise...so I would recommend getting Transparent (the wall) speaker cable...It sounds great to me. The wall is 12 gauge wire and four 20 foot runs will cost about $360. Not a bad deal considering the quality of the product! Most local Tranparent dealers will let you try it out, and if your not happy with it, they will let you exchange it for something else.

-BL

gacole2000

IXOS is a great bang for the buck wire!

burdette

Originally posted by BeginnersLuck
four 20 foot runs will cost about $360. Not a bad deal considering the quality of the product!

Four dollars and fifty cents per foot for speaker wire??? Holy **** ****. It better be made of pure gold, get my drink, and suck my dick for that kind of money. Absolutely beyond my ability to comprehend. Nothing personal, Beginner.. I know a lot of the guys who frequent this board would agree with you. I don't happen to.

At least you've got something tangible.. which would not be the case if you simply threw your money on the street.

mantis

Here's the bottom line.Yes you can bi wire them.Don't sweat it,alot of people will disagree with it but I say YES you can Bi wire the powered tower speakers.They sound better bi wired then not in my opnion.
If you have any questions reguarding this,Let me know.

hoosier21

"Here's the bottom line.. I say yes you can" - Mantis

1. Manual does not say you can

2. Ken Swagger says you can't (Polk customer service)

3. Most members of this forum agree you can't

But, I guess if Mantis says you can, you can.

RuSsMaN

DING! Fries are done!

scottvamp

All this $$$ for very little improvement - hate to ask what you are running for a "moniter"/ "DVD" with that set up. Which for the most part you have the same speakers as I. Bi-wire or NOT you simply move the bridge and use wire to jump from the top post to the bottom. Your throwing away your money. For about the some price you can buy the M282 and bi-amp the cs400. Reality!Ohhh, how we go in circles on this site.

reeltrouble1

But to cast and pull, dive, skim or troll. No matter the circles or rocks that have to get looked under. The point is that 13 or so of you have taken the time to give an opinion! Now how cool is that? Polk deserves a hand for just having this forum allowing for a coast to coast or country discussion.

I remember back in the 60's laying in bed with my new transistor radio, listening to Twist and Shout the first night it released. I thought how cool is this, that I have a radio I can take to bed and listen to that even has an Ear PLug. Ok enough memory lane, point is that technology has moved a long way since then, but you got to try it, so if someone wants to run cables a certain way and likes the way it sounds its up to them, it all about the quality of the sound to them. What my 24 yr old thinks sounds good can be different from what I think, we have different hearing ranges and tastes, but share the interest in the sound.

Since I am an old guy, I appreciate that sometimes things just cost to much for what you are getting. Some of these "entry level" systems like mine could hardly be called cheap by many folks. But since I like to listen to music and watch movies it is worth it to me, and I, like you, am willing to spend more to upgrade. But where? Ah now theres the crux, since I have not hit the jack pot end of the rainbow lottery yet.

As far as the can or cant bi-wire the tower thing I did not want to start but that does not matter now, since I have always been a bit of a smart-****, tell me I cant and I am likely to say I can. Yes, I can buy so called bi-wires made in a factory and hook them up to my main speakers, now whether or not this is going to change the sound to something I like I really do not know, now that bi-amping, theres an idea!:cool:

Remember though I am still just a Polkie, albeit with a few bucks, but overall cheap. So when I do finally bi-wire/amp do I move the bass management to Large? Maybe daisy chain some 282 and go for 7.1 with bi-amp. How about a new DVD or CD changer the ones I have are just OK, could put some real money in these, but which ones?

So ding there goes the bell swallow the fries, take the cast, and thanks for the help and your opinions. I have learned a great deal from reading your posts and trying things, every once in a while I have gotten stuck with a "dog" product but most companies take returns.

HBombToo

I'll throw my 2c into the mix here... I'm with Burdette on this wire business. 12 guage to your 1000i's, remove the metal strap and make your own and your done on your mains.
Save your money on wire because with it you CAN do some really cool tweaking.
Bi-Amping your center is a great improvement and start you on your way down seperate alley. Get yourself a good amp and start playing power management. When you get the power to your speakers to where your happy look for a seperate DAC for your 2 channel and use your CD player as a transport only.

Just a few thoughts and yes your right on the mark with Polk providing a forum for these types of discussions. Just think we also fight like brothers and sisters and thats when it really gets cool!

Hve fun and welcome to the Forum.

HBomb

mantis

hoosier21,
Fact-Ken has his rt2000's bi wired.Correct term or not,he has told me on the phone that this yields the best performance.He didn't call IT BI WIRING but this type of style of wiring is what he feels is the best way to wire the powered towers.
Yes the speakers are powered and all that stupid crap.Who really gives a crap, if it sounds better it sounds better.Terms are terms.Call it MANTIS WIRING and call it a day.Wanna be all about better sound quality,do it.
Do you own powered towers hoosier????

Russ,
Fries are done???? Whatever.....nice input.Do you own or ever owned Powered towers???I think not.No advice is worth reading from you here.NO experience......no respect.

scottvamp,
now your reply I can respect.The amount of money ones willing to spend on little or alot of Improvement....that needs to be decided by the one building the system.Altered advice...cool man.

HbombToo,
yeat another altered advice and I also respect it.

Wire............how much of it have you really taken the time to listen 2?How much of that time is really spend online reading others opnions???I can repect anyones opnion on wire if they take the time to learn and experience it.Most of you are money driven to make the choice if wire is worth it or not.Not many posts have I read that stated a wire shootout and one said "hey you know what???This more expensive wire doesn't sound any better then my Home Depot wire".You guys say"It costs alot and your wasting your money".
I do remember alot of you guys convincing yourselves that all amps sound the same.........then whats so Important about seperates????Stupid question??????Really..........

I say this.......do whatever you want with your systems.It makes no difference.You have to listen to it,not me,not any of these people in here.Add value where you feel is right,I think thats what it all comes down to right???Better speakers.......better amps......better sources..room acoustics......wire???You value what you value.I value all.

Not everyone has the same budget.Some have more and some have less.Everyone can build a nice system at any price.Thats why they make all levels of systems.Everyone can enjoy something nice at what they can afford.Entry level all the way up to extreme high end.
Getting better sound quality takes alot of money.How much money???Well that again is what needs to be decided on the will of the one.Performance usually gets better with better electronics.It's a no brainer.There are products on the market that perform close to higher end stuff that costs less,not not many,not many at all.Quality and higher prices go hand and hand.Do I like that???NO but that the real world.Personally I think the price of alot of electronics are way out there,but I know if I want to achive a level of performace I come to expect from my system,I need to lay out the cash.I have a budget like everyone else.Maybe not the same level but one nonetheless.

This is our hobby.:o

TroyD

RT1000i's can't be biwired. If you understand how a crossover works and how a crossover is biwired/biamped and why it is theoretically beneficial then you will understand why we say you can't do it. It's a fact, not open for debate.

As for using a high level connection to the powered sub using a biwire cable, sure, it very well may be the way to go...I'd suggest using a decent, albeit inexpensive wire first to see if it yields the improvements you are looing before dropping a huge wad on wires. Just my .02

BDT

RuSsMaN

Owning them or not, does not change the *facts*. I didn't comment on how they sound.

Polk seems to recommend all their powered subs be hooked up via high (speaker) level connections, but the 1000 and 2000 cannot be 'biwired'. If you can't grasp the simple concept....no respect. Christ, YOU are the professional here, out of anyone that SHOULD know, I would think it would be you.

Cheers,
Russ

reeltrouble1

Very interesting, indeed. Still, when I bi-amp/wire do you generally set the speaker to small or large, or is this again a matter of choice dependent on the speaker being used?

Still be mostly objective about the whole thread I am going to begin with SVA 's advice to just jump the High/Low with some speaker cable. Bare wire? Banana Plugs? Spades? Heck one of the sites had something called a GECKO jumper that was 70.00 for this what 4 inch run, now figure the cost per foot for that!!

But with all that info out there it is only a matter of time till the whisper to do it ( upgrade) starts banging like a DRUM. I am fairly satisfied with the Onk for HT, and I do watch around four movies a week, but when listening to CD, now there is where I think I am really missing out, but I reference tunes I first heard in analog on my LP's. Anybody run two systems? One two channel for stereo, one 6-7.1 for HT?? Could go for the SACD/DVD-A, but that wont help with the CD collection I have.

Scott/Hbomb, if I did bi-amp the center with the M-282, what do you think would happen to the sound coming from the CSi I have? Then I still need to upgrade to some better wire. I am using HD now.

From the You Can Do It camp: you each make a logical statement as to why you feel you can bi-wire a power tower, seems like it is mostly about the sound with each of you, you like what you hear.

From the You Can't Do it camp: you each seem to believe strongly in calling things what they really are, and apparently this is not true Bi-wiring.

So in this new guys view you are all right. Now just wait till someone asks me if you can Bi-wire a powered tower?

TroyD

As to wether you can or can' biwire the RT1000i has nada to do with how it sounds, it's an impossibility. The theory behind it, briefly is that biwiring/biamping allows you to power the mids and the high independently of each other. The binding posts on the RT1000i do not correspond to a crossover. The sub input is merely a high level input.

The reason we 'beat the drum' is because to think otherwise is misinformation. Biwiring is a specific term with a specific purpose. It's one of the few things in this hobby that isn't subjective.

BDT

polkatese

Troy,
I read the manual (just out of curiosity) and yes, there is no reference whatsoever of the second binding posts' purpose, so, why the hell Polk put it there for? for look?

reeltrouble1

Good question there Troy. What the heck is that post there for? It seems that signals are passed to/through it with the jumper Polk supplies. Now gestalt on those little electrons. Can you see them? Going round and round.

Is anybody going to tell me about the bass management for bi-wire/bi-amp? Help

TroyD

It allows for a high level (speaker level) input to the sub as opposed to LFE.


BDT

mantis

So Troy since your on the subject,
How should one wire such a speaker?Can you explain the benefits of wiring one way to another?WOuld it be better to run LFE to the speaker or just use speaker wire and why?
I think everyone here could benefit from your response.

reeltrouble1

I took the jumpers off and tried some monster wire instead, did not really notice much difference, but that may be because I did notice that either way, I was getting very little sound from the low frequency/subwoofer. While lying next to the speaker had to turn the volume knob on back all the way up to hear any bass at all. Does this sound correct?

The speakers are set to large, I have a psw450 run from the lfe on my receiver at full range.

polkatese

Reeltrouble1, Bass Management according to outlaw Audio, cut and paste exercise, 'cause it's pretty much sum up the purpose also. This is in the context of their ICBM product....

Most of today's DVD-Audio players, and some of today's multi-channel SACD players, do not have bass management when you're playing DVD-Audio or SACD discs. (The players themselves may contain bass management menus, but this built in circuitry is probably effective only when you're listening to Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks.)

As a result, when you're listening to DVD-Audio or SACD discs, all of the speakers get a full-range signal, (with deep bass being sent to all speakers), and the separate ".1" bass track goes only to the subwoofer. Thus, the main speakers in the system may get more bass than they can handle. And in systems without a subwoofer, most of the bass will be thrown away, because it cannot be routed to the other speakers.

Bass management is the process of redirecting bass signals to the appropriate place in your system. Whether you have small satellite, bookshelf, or tower speakers your system is not running to its full potential without proper bass management. Small bookshelves and satellite speakers are not designed to play back low bass signals. Redirection of this low frequency energy to a dedicated subwoofer will not only prevent your speakers from being damaged but also allows the signal to be reproduced. Many bookshelf speakers begin to stop producing output between 60 and 100 Hz. Without bass management, signals below these frequencies are lost.

HBombToo

realtrouble I moved toward biamp of my 400 because I had a hell of a hard time with my front soundstage. Just seemed to me the 800's overwelmed the 400 and I would have to turn the volume up to compensate. After turning up the volume when loud passages would hit I would be knocked out of my chair and had a screaming wife yelling turn that DOWN!!! After I biamped and reset the levels with my spl it all settled down. No more trouble hearing the dialog at all and when the loud passages hit it was very pleasant because it didn't crush ya.

Just my experience.

HBomb

danger boy

i have biwire monster cables. i use both sets of binding posts on the back of the RT1000i's. when I have the jumpers off and I only plug in one set of the biwires to the top.. i only get highs. when i only plug the bottom wires in.. I only get lows.

I plug both of them in and it's a beautiful marriage of highs, mids and lows.. whether that's true biwiring or not. it does sound damn good to me.

ok. you can't biwire a RT1000 but you CAN biwire a RT800? do i have this right?

TroyD

Originally posted by mantis
So Troy since your on the subject,
How should one wire such a speaker?Can you explain the benefits of wiring one way to another?WOuld it be better to run LFE to the speaker or just use speaker wire and why?
I think everyone here could benefit from your response.

Dan, you can hook them up anyway you like. As to which is better, well, that's for the person listening to decide. It's subjective, unlike, biwiring which is not. If you don't understand the premise, which you apparently don't, I'm NOT going to explain it again.

It's sort of like this, do you connect your sub with the sub pre-out or do you run a high level connection to the sub and then from the sub out to the speakers (which is essentially what you are doing when you think you are biwiring the RT1000) as to which sounds better, that's for you to decide.

Yes, you can biwire the RT800i.

Troy

reeltrouble1

Hbomb,

Thanks man, going to have to give the bi-amp strong consideration, but if I go with one separate what next? More Separates:D Not having the degree of sound stage problem you had but just do not have that WOW factor!

Danger boy,

Like you said you like the way they sound wired top and bottom, how much bass are you getting out of the subs on the 1000's I do not seem to get much at all.

Watched HP chamber of secrets last night though and the 450 was rockin, more bass frequency than I remembered in the first!!