Canare 4S11 Blue Jeans Speaker Cable
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Think I will call Polk technical and get their thoughts regarding bi-wiring.
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William is correct.
Mr. Blue, go back to electronics 101."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Instead of coupling them with the jumper, you are coupling them together at the amp's binding post. The cicuit has not been changed at all, the load is the same. Think about it.
If I understand correctly, bi-wiring is the same as a jumper cable between speaker binding posts. -
Considering purchasing raw cable and doing the terminations myself. I am choosing this cable because my new RTiA5's and CSiA6 are bi-wired speakers. I will be connecting speakers to HK 3600 AVR. Blue Jeans website states canare 4s11 is 14 gauge. Will this gauge wire fit into my speaker binding posts. If not, I am thinking spades for speakers and possibly bananas for receiver. Has anyone already gone thru the process using the same speakers. If so, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Seems like bi wiring is questionable on other threads. I asked Joe Abrahms who sells MIT cables and he recommended bi wire cables since my Polks are bi wired speakers. Are there any special setting I need to make on my receiver for bi wiring speakers. Do I remove jumper plates on speakers if I bi wire. Any help appreciated. Thanks
Too bad speaker wire threads need to go off on tangents all over the place.
Joe Abrams is a good guy and you would do well to listen to him. In regards to your post,yes,when bi-wiring, remove the brass jumpers that came with the speakers. No special settings needed in the receiver. Only use the brass jumpers when using single runs of regular cable.As far as the benefit goes,thats debatable,but for my ears,I can hear the difference.HT SYSTEM-
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Polk FX500 surrounds
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lsi 9's -
Sending, yes. But on the high side, the crossover is going to be very high impedance to the lows and current flow is going to be far less!Don't know why some would say that. The amp is still sending the full range on both wires when bi-wiring.
As a very rough rule of thumb and for the sake of explanation, you could consider the power required for a 2-way speaker split at 3K to be about a 10 to 1 power split requirement. When you say it's all the same presented to the amp, your looking at the wrong place. It matters what the drive to the speaker is! It's all about the source impedance of the amp.
A perfect theoretical generator would have a source impedance of zero. Nothing about the load would matter. But our generator (amplifier) in this case is real world and has some source impedance. And that increases at the other end of the wire. That change is what we're interested in here.
Yet again, the example of two identical extension cords and two loads. Plug both cords into the same wall outlet...the low source impedance point. Now compare at the far end of the cords what happens when you plug a heavy load (vacuum) and a light load (light bulb) on the other end of the same cord versus one on each cord. What you'll find is that when you seperate them, the application of the heavy load won't modulate the light load nearly as much when they are separated!! This is a good illustration of the same principle as bi-wiring!
CoolJazzA so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements." -
Sending, yes. But on the high side, the crossover is going to be very high impedance to the lows and current flow is going to be far less!
The crossover has not changed. All that has happened is that the signal has moved from the jumper to a piece of wire. The load on the amp has not changed. The load at the speaker end has not changed. No matter how you look at it. -
F!!The crossover has not changed. All that has happened is that the signal has moved from the jumper to a piece of wire. The load on the amp has not changed. The load at the speaker end has not changed. No matter how you look at it.
You now have to go back a grade! Try the extension cord load test and report back!A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements." -
F!!
You now have to go back a grade! Try the extension cord load test and report back!
You should probably read a beginner's book in electronics before trying to discuss this further. -
Try the extension cord load test and report back!
Common...do it! We need to try to get you out of grade school once and for all. :eek: Your startin' to scare the other kids!
Not to mention you look awful funny all hunched over, crammed into that little tiny desk! A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements." -
Try the extension cord load test and report back!
Common...do it! We need to try to get you out of grade school once and for all. :eek: Your startin' to scare the other kids! Not to mention you look awful funny all hunched over, crammed into that little tiny desk!
The insults don't change the fact that you are completely wrong. Nice try though.
When the jumper is in place, the high and low circuits are connected together. When the jumper is removed, and the leads are connected at the amp, the two circuits are connected together. I'm not sure why you can't see that, and that electrically it is unchanged. -
CJ, WM2 will keep telling you you are wrong and he will never try anything for himself........he has a completely closed mind on the subject and apparently thinks he knows all when it comes to cabling/chords, etc.
Ignore him
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
You should probably read a beginner's book in electronics before trying to discuss this further.
Although not directed to me, it is still good advice for the poster. :rolleyes:
I might be misunderstanding this circuit, and if I am all it takes is a simple explanation as to why. Yet, so far you have not provided a specific piece of information to support your position. All you do is talk, and expect others to just accept what you say without any verification or validation. Unfortunately, your posts regarding speaker wire show you have little credibility, so you need to provide data.
I provided the schematic for the LSi15 which clearly shows the LSi15 consists of two separate speaker circuits. The tweeter, and the upper/lower driver, woofer combination. When the jumper is installed between the + and - posts these two circuits become one. When the jumper is removed they are two distinct circuits with no path for current flow between them. As mentioned earlier, with the jumpers removed, this is the same as if there are two separate, distinct, and unrelated speakers attached to the amp.
Install the jumpers on the LSi15 and use a multi-meter to measure the DC resistance between both sets of the + and - terminals. This value will be for all the circuitry of both speaker pairs, and will give the same value irrespective of which pair of terminals is used. Remove the jumpers from the LSi15, and measure the DC resistance between both sets of + and - terminals. This will be two different values, because there are now two separate circuits (speakers).
Whether an individual amp acts the same with two separate loads on its output versus a single load is unknown, but it certainly is not the same as moving the jumper from the speaker to the amp.
It appears what you are trying to say, is if the jumpers are removed, both sets of speakers are attached via two pairs of wire to the same amp output terminals, and the multi-meter is placed on the amp output terminals, then the same value will be measured, as if there were only one set of wire, and the jumpers are installed on the speaker.
Obviously, this is not true. At the very least the addition of the 2nd pair of speaker wires has now added additional resistance, capacitance, and inductance into each circuit. The amp is now seeing a different load with the two separate speakers than it sees with the single speaker. The electrical characteristics of the circuit are now changed.
If the circuit is now different then it cannot be the same as if we just moved the jumper from the speaker to the amp.
It might similar, but it is not the same.
It might be close, but it is not the same.
Consequently, there is the possibility that removing the jumper, and biwiring the speaker, a different audible output can result, and depending on the amp, it could be better or worse than the single wired version.
Granted, we might be splitting hairs here, but in electrical engineering if something is changed and the circuit is different then it is not the same as before.
I suspect it is these minor, nuance changes in electrical characteristics that are responsible for the different results heard when various speaker wires are used. Each wire has its own electrical characteristics, and combined with the amp and speaker, could produce a different circuit with different audible characteristics.
Experiment time:
Out of curiosity, I just did an experiment to verify what I said above. If what I am saying is true then it should be measurable. I have a pair of LSi7s that are idle so I measured the DC resistance with jumpers installed, jumpers removed, jumpers removed with 2 pair of 8 foot 12 gauge twisted copper wire attached to each terminal, and with the other +/- ends twisted together as it would be on an amp.
Results:
Jumpers installed: 4 ohms between each +/- terminals. 4 ohms measured at the end of an 8 length of 12 gauge twisted copper wire.
Jumpers removed: Infinite DC resistance between the top +/- terminals (there is a cap in series which blocks DC). 3.9 ohms on the lower +/- terminals
Two pair of 8 12 gauge wire added, far end twisted together: 4.1 ohms measured between +/- terminals
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18676&d=1155780535
This seems to indicate that biwring a speaker is not the same as moving the jumper to the amp.
It is sort of funny this discussion started because I corrected myself on an earlier statement I made. I said if the two pair of speaker wires are going to an unjumpered speaker they were like two resistors in parallel. This is wrong because for resistors to be in parallel the start point and the end point must be the same for each resistor. However, since an unjumpered speaker consists of 2 separate speakers then, obviously, while the start point is the same, the end point if different.
If the jumpers are not removed, and two pair of speaker wires are used, then the wires are acting like two resistors in parallel, since the start and end points are now the same.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
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Three 20 amp circuits. -
William is correct.
Mr. Blue, go back to electronics 101.CJ, WM2 will keep telling you you are wrong and he will never try anything for himself........he has a completely closed mind on the subject and apparently thinks he knows all when it comes to cabling/chords, etc.
Ignore him
H9
It has nothing to do with opinions on wire, it's just an electrical connection. Ignoring facts sure won't change that.
I would have thought you knew enough to understand, regardless of opinions on whether it changes the sound or not, all that is changed is where you couple the two circuits together. -
So.........getting back to my original post, what should I do????? Ha Ha!!!! I have decided to go ahead and use Canare 4S11 and bi-wire my speakers. I will bare wire them with no connectors. Non terminated cable is super cheap so what the heck. I might even put braiding on them if I want to get fancy. Now boys, let's all behave and agree to disagree on this one. Got a feeling everyone has already made up their minds. Have a great 2010 enjoying all your new toys. I know I will. Thanks again.
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I agree w/face & kcoc321.
About 6 months ago I read in another forum, replacing those jumpers* with a short piece of your favorite** speaker wire yields improvements***.
* inferior materials to lamp cord
** tee-hee; as far as I'll go in this debate
***confirmed by several other in same
I'll go along with the lower resistance argument for bi-wiring; potential for slight change in sound quality. Hope I didn't "stir the pot" much here.
If your serious you'll upgrade the wire inside. If you're insane, like me, you'll bypass the internal XO & bi-amp! LOLLOL!Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out 8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out *soldered LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & “Plugged*” Mids - 981, connected w/MP Premiere ICs Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s *Xschop's handy work -
Opps! forgot to mention Remember: connecting the wire directly to your BPs at either end has one (or two!) less connection(s) than bananas or spadesSamsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out 8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out *soldered LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & “Plugged*” Mids - 981, connected w/MP Premiere ICs Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s *Xschop's handy work
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One more ooops! per the Polk manual, if you have enough channels you could run a separate length of wire* to each set of BPs from separate channels. I did this**, early-on with my CSiA6. Not quite the same as true bi-amping; will NOT produce the same results as an electronic XO handling filtering duties.
* your favorite of course!
** I have the channels so why not!
On another note: cheers to Blue note for your efforts! To ignore his test results would be... well... ignorant!Samsung 60" UN60ES6100 LED Outlaw Audio 976 Pre/Pro Samsung BDP, Amazon Firestick, Phillips CD Changer Canare 14 ga - LCR tweeters inside*; Ctr Ch outside BJC 10 ga - LCR mids, inside* & out 8 ga Powerline: LR woofers, inside* & out *soldered LR: Tri-amped RTi A7 w/Rotels. Woofers - 980BX; Tweets & “Plugged*” Mids - 981, connected w/MP Premiere ICs Ctr Ch: Rotel RB981 -> Bi-amped CSi A6 Surrounds: Premiere ICs ->Rotel 981 -> AR 12 ga -> RTi A3. 5 Subs: Sunfire True SW Signature -> LFE & Ctr Ch; 4 Audio Pro Evidence @ the “Corners”. Power Conditioning & Distribution: 4 dedicated 20A feeds; APC H15; 5 Furman Miniport 20s *Xschop's handy work -
Results:
Jumpers installed: 4 ohms between each +/- terminals. 4 ohms measured at the end of an 8’ length of 12 gauge twisted copper wire.
Jumpers removed: Infinite DC resistance between the top +/- terminals (there is a cap in series which blocks DC). 3.9 ohms on the lower +/- terminals
Two pair of 8’ 12 gauge wire added, far end twisted together: 4.1 ohms measured between +/- terminals
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=18676&d=1155780535
This seems to indicate that biwring a speaker is not the same as moving the jumper to the amp.
If the jumpers are not removed, and two pair of speaker wires are used, then the wires are acting like two resistors in parallel, since the start and end points are now the same.
A question that I would like to ask an Amp designer: Are your measurements taken at the correct place? Would the parallel connections (meaning at least double the wire) be summed (series now) inside the amp?
I think the amp in a bi-wire scenario is going to see almost the same load power supply side (ignoring the fact that double the cable is used). -
A question that I would like to ask an Amp designer: Are your measurements taken at the correct place? Would the parallel connections (meaning at least double the wire) be summed (series now) inside the amp?
I think the amp in a bi-wire scenario is going to see almost the same load power supply side (ignoring the fact that double the cable is used).
Head over to www.DIYAUDIO.COM there are many, many amp designers and ask your question. They will answer it in more detail than you can probably understand.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Head over to www.DIYAUDIO.COM there are many, many amp designers and ask your question. They will answer it in more detail than you can probably understand.
H9
You are an **** as always. Too bad you suck at left handed comments. Now I know why you named yourself 'heiney'.
The cool thing about DIYAUDIO? Even Nelson Pass posts there:)
To the OP try bi-wiring your setup. Bi-amping if you can is where you want to be at if you can.
In pro-audio (which I did for 7 years, but alas there is more $$ in software dev) we always multi-amped setups with active crossovers. In home audio if you can run speakers on truly separate amp circuits you are negating the problems of EMF being introduced to other transducers in the x-over circuit.
Arguably bi-wiring is of minimal improvement:
1. You are effectively doubling the wire gauge. But 12 gauge is plenty for short speaker runs.
2. You are at least attempting to isolate tweeter or tweeter/mid from the woofer section by X number of feet. So you have some isolation just by the simple length of wire. Whether that is enough to make a difference, well if you look at other boards the general consensus is that it doesn't. But YMMV. Give it a shot and use your ears.
If bi-wiring on the same amp section, your amp is most likely going to see the same load. -
You are an **** as always. Too bad you suck at left handed comments. Now I know why you named yourself 'heiney'.
The cool thing about DIYAUDIO? Even Nelson Pass posts there:)
To the OP try bi-wiring your setup. Bi-amping if you can is where you want to be at if you can.
In pro-audio (which I did for 7 years, but alas there is more $$ in software dev) we always multi-amped setups with active crossovers. In home audio if you can run speakers on truly separate amp circuits you are negating the problems of EMF being introduced to other transducers in the x-over circuit.
Arguably bi-wiring is of minimal improvement:
1. You are effectively doubling the wire gauge. But 12 gauge is plenty for short speaker runs.
2. You are at least attempting to isolate tweeter or tweeter/mid from the woofer section by X number of feet. So you have some isolation just by the simple length of wire. Whether that is enough to make a difference, well if you look at other boards the general consensus is that it doesn't. But YMMV. Give it a shot and use your ears.
If bi-wiring on the same amp section, your amp is most likely going to see the same load.
Sorry you took my comment negatively..........it wasn't meant to be. And yes I've corresponded with Nelson before. I was serious as a heart attack about going over there to get knowledgeable answers to technical questions. On the whole more detailed and experienced answers than you will get here about electronic theory.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Sorry you took my comment negatively..........it wasn't meant to be. And yes I've corresponded with Nelson before. I was serious as a heart attack about going over there to get knowledgeable answers to technical questions. On the whole more detailed and experienced answers than you will get here about electronic theory.
H9
I'm sorry that I had to take it that way. To bad the HK AVR3600 doesn't allow for bi-amp.
