Is it REALLY worth it?

snow

DarqueKnight wrote: »

DarqueKnight

I think it is an excellent analogy. My point was that people spend large sums of money on watches, cars, etc. without question. If someone spends $3000 on speaker cables, eyebrows are raised

Only in certain circles If this was brought up in an audiogon chat 3k cables wouldndt raise an eyebrow, here where 3k is in a lot of cases more than some peoples entire system it shocks people.

A Rolex is not always about making a statement. Often, it is just an appropriate accessory used in conjunction with high quality, high cost clothing and other jewelry. A senior executive at a Wall Street investment bank might be required to wear clothes, shoes and accessories of the highest quality. In this case, the Rolex fits in with the $4,000 suit, $1000 shoes, $200 tie, $300 shirt, $8,000 cuff links, $15,000 gold and platinum bracelet and $20,000 pinky ring.[/QUOTE

Agreed. And with people that have muti thousand dollar amps pre's, sources, speakers it's both expected and needed equipment, you wouldndt have $50.00 cables with a pair of Wilson watts, nor would you wear a Timex with a suit from Kiton.



REGARDS SNOW

obieone

"Speed is a question of money. How fast do you want to go?"- Unknown:D

Cogito

Sorry, but no matter how much maketing hype and voodoo science applied, Nordost Valhalla cables still don't defy physics. Save your money or buy better speakers.

superjunior

Cogito wrote: »

Sorry, but no matter how much maketing hype and voodoo science applied, Nordost Valhalla cables still don't defy physics. Save your money or buy better speakers.

and better speakers are going to sound better with better cables

hearingimpared

Cogito wrote: »

Sorry, but no matter how much maketing hype and voodoo science applied, Nordost Valhalla cables still don't defy physics. Save your money or buy better speakers.

What components does your rig consist of? Is it an HT system or a 2 ch system or both?

Demiurge

The short answer as far as I am concerned is no.

My system sucks compared to what many of you have, but you know what? I enjoy it and the upgrades come slowly because of it. I wouldn't get much enjoyment out of constantly being annoyed that something in my system isn't quite right and needs to be tweaked to the tune of $3,000 cables or more. To me, that's not fun and $3,000 cables would be wasted on me. I realize to others that is fun and I don't have any problem with it to the point of needing to criticize them for spending more money on their sytstem than I would. Those who do that seem jealous.

As far as the price of these cables and others....like anything else, as long as your responsibilities are reasonably taken care of you should be able to spend your money however you please. If a $3,000 or $36,000 set of cables is what you want....go for it!

tonyb

Kinda like the difference between a 20 dollar hooker and a 500 dollar one. They both do the same thing,but which one would you enjoy more?

superjunior

I smell pie...

Jstas

OK, the Timex vs Rolex is a bad analogy.The Timex, while a good watch and great at telling time is not a great watch nor a precision instrument that excels at keeping time in even the worst conditions, like a Rolex does. Rolex is held in high esteem and widely regarded as the best because, honestly, they are. They command a high price because the skills of watchmaking and clock making are acquired and learned over many years. The makers of such time pieces are truly the top echelons of their field and their time is expensive. So Rolex must charge a premium for a pile of brass, steel and aluminum to recoup the design costs.

I don't see how that analogy applies to speaker wires in any case. Even if you are of the sort that believes all the "technology" fancy-talk for a high pressure metal extruding process on the Nordost website that some how imparts super abilities upon a strand of wire laid out as a multi-channel ribbon cable. The technology is not new nor is it revolutionary. It's been around since the mid 60's for computers. But computers use it because signal quality matters in digital, high speed, high EMF environments like the inside of a computer case. A high power speaker cable pushing an analog signal does not require such extremes. Often times, the speaker cable is a source of EMF so strong that it interferes with other electronics around it. If it can stomp on other signals so easily, it is no where near as susceptible to interference as, say, a signal lead like interconnects.

Everybody keeps posting lame quotes thinking they are clever. Well, here's mine. "I cannot change the laws of physics!" - Montgomery Scott. When concerned about wire, only 3 things matter. Gauge, length and purity. They matter because they affect the physical characteristics of the wire which in turn affects the resistance and power handling capability of the wire. If anything, all of these fancy "manufacturing processes" these wire companies use are likely imparting impurities in to the metals they are using for the wire and that is causing issues that manifest themselves in such a manner to make something sound different, not necessarily better.

The funniest thing about the wire debate is that all those who are pro wire are anti-Bose. Why are they anti-Bose? Because Bose markets an inferior product to people who don't know but claim they can hear an improvement over other systems of any value. Yet when you put the measuring devices up to Bose it fails miserably. Then they claim that physics says you're missing out if you own Bose. But the Bose owners, like hurt children, claim they can still hear the difference and it doesn't matter what any fancy science talk tells them, their ears don't lie! Sound familiar? Why do cable people believe the science when it comes to Bose but when the science contradicts what they believe, all of a sudden it's bogus?

DarqueKnight

snow wrote: »

Only in certain circles

I get that part.

The part I don't get is, even if you are not participating in high performance audio, surely you must understand the concept that audio is no different from any other field of merchandise and that there are products at the low, medium and high ends. If a person with a low end car can comprehend the concept of a car costing six figures, with tires costing five figures, that same person with a low end audio system should be able to comprehend the concept of a six figure high end audio system that requires cables costing five figures.

Cogito wrote: »

Sorry, but no matter how much maketing hype and voodoo science applied, Nordost Valhalla cables still don't defy physics. Save your money or buy better speakers.

The way these people bitterly carry on, you would think that high enders are trying to cram expensive cables down everyone's throat, regardless of the quality of their audio system.:)

superjunior wrote: »

and better speakers are going to sound better with better cables

Only if your amps and source components are up to par.;)

Demiurge wrote: »

I realize to others that is fun and I don't have any problem with it to the point of needing to criticize them for spending more money on their sytstem than I would. Those who do that seem jealous.

Yeah, maybe that's the root of all this.

I'm curious. Do these type of "cable justification" questions come up in the realm of car audio? I have "nice" audio systems in my car and truck, but I have no desire to install a high end audio system in either. I am aware that some people's automotive audio systems cost more than their vehicle, but it does not bother me that they invest large sums of money installing high quality audio systems in the small, noisy, acoustically compromised environment of an automobile.

DarqueKnight

Jstas wrote: »

Why do cable people believe the science when it comes to Bose but when the science contradicts what they believe, all of a sudden it's bogus?

You really shouldn't lump all "cable people" into one stereotypical group.

There is an amazing diversity of opinion, motive, experience and technical knowledge among "cable people". Some "cable people" like expensive cables simply because they like anything expensive. Other "cable people" like expensive cables because they perceive a performance benefit.

concealer404

tonyb wrote: »

Kinda like the difference between a 20 dollar hooker and a 500 dollar one. They both do the same thing,but which one would you enjoy more?

Law of diminishing returns applies here? Or not?

snow

The funny thing is that the majority of people who claim that expensive cables make no or very little difference are the ones that have never tried them.

I think it is more of the no one likes to have their baby called ugly going on here, so in defense of owning inferior cables claim that that those that do are fools.



REGARDS SNOW

Knucklehead

I think its all relative to what you own...would they make a difference in my set-up? Of course not. If I could afford tens of thousands of dollars of gear..............

DarqueKnight

snow wrote: »

The funny thing is that the majority of people who claim that expensive cables make no or very little difference are the ones that have never tried them.

I think it is more of the no one likes to have their baby called ugly going on here, so in defense of owning inferior cables claim that that those that do are fools.

You talk like one of them cable people. Are you one of them cable people? If you are, what type of cable person are you? ('Cause they ain't all alike.)

Jstas

snow wrote: »

The funny thing is that the majority of people who claim that expensive cables make no or very little difference are the ones that have never tried them.

I think it is more of the no one likes to have their baby called ugly going on here, so in defense of owning inferior cables claim that that those that do are fools.



REGARDS SNOW

BZZT! Wrong.

I have tried the expensive cables. Audioquest, MIT, a few others as well. I never owned any of them but a friend of mine who frequents another audio forum and owns a pile of AV123 gear. He has brought cables over to try on my systems as well as his. Namely because he doesn't have a 2 channel system. He doesn't seem to hear a discernible difference either.

I have tried them. I find them to be the very definition of extortion. My system is powered by Carver amps and the wires are 10 gauge PowerKing speaker wires with Dayton banana plugs on the ends. All of it came from PartsExpress and it cost me a grand total of $66 shipped to my door. My interconnects are old, leftover RCA cables from my car audio days. They are made by a company called StreetWires and they are old 6.0 wires. Their top of the line. They cost me about $70 a piece 7 or 8 years ago now for 16 foot lengths I think it was. They sure do look pretty and most people ask what they are. They think they are special until I tell them. Then they say that I don't know. Yeah, sure, boss. Whatever you say.


People will spend their money on what ever they want. If you want to drop 3 large on a set of copper cables barely worth $50 in scrap then, be my guest! But don't sit there and tell me that your $3000 cables assembled from wire made by the same Chinese company that made my $30 cables can somehow defy the laws of physics. You will never change my mind until you can find me someone with an independent, unbiased view to do testing with actual scientific instruments and can show me repeatable results that show I am incorrect.

concealer404

I really don't know how i didn't see that earlier....

DarqueKnight

Jstas wrote: »

You will never change my mind until you can find me someone with an independent, unbiased view to do testing with actual scientific instruments and can show me repeatable results that show I am incorrect.

Why do you think the cable people are trying to change your mind?

Why do you think the cable people would be interested in providing scientific proof to an outsider? Cable people who are scientifically inclined are only interested in providing scientific proof to other cable people. If you run across some scientific discourse on cable performance evaluation that was written by a cable person, I guarantee you it was not meant for "general audiences", but rather, for other interested cable people.;)

All of the cable people that I associate with are content to only discuss cables with other cable people. However, some cable people, such as myself, will discuss cables with outsiders on a limited basis.

Did one of the cable people abuse you in some way in the past?

You seem paranoid.

Jstas

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I'm curious. Do these type of "cable justification" questions come up in the realm of car audio? I have "nice" audio systems in my car and truck, but I have no desire to install a high end audio system in either. I am aware that some people's automotive audio systems cost more than their vehicle, but it does not bother me that they invest large sums of money installing high quality audio systems in the small, noisy, acoustically compromised environment of an automobile.

No, they don't come up in car audio because it matters in car audio. Why? Because of the engine management electronics and high amperage systems running through out the car. Those high amperage systems cause interference even in just a head unit or other audio source. Keying up a simple CB radio next to somebody with a high power stereo can cause problems.

Houses aren't wired with high amperage power systems. They are low amperage high voltage and AC. Cars are low voltage high amperage DC. They behave very differently and are not an apples to apples comparison. Then again, look at the sound competitions for cars. The SQ competitors often turn off the cars completely and run on straight battery power to reduce the amount of noise generated by the car's electrical systems. I know I did it that way and it made a tremendous difference. Then again, when the alternator and ECM aren't operating, they aren't kicking off gigantic EMF from not only the power circuits but the engine isn't generating a massive static electricity charge.

Like I said, apples to oranges. But your insinuation that it bothers people because of the cost in a compromised environment is changing the subject. This subject is about $3K speaker wires, not car audio.



And honestly, it doesn't bother me that someone wants to drop that kind of dough on copper. What bothers me is that those same someones try to tell me that their opinion is true and they want to ignore the science behind it because it doesn't jive with what they think.

treitz3

halo71 wrote: »

I realize good speaker cables make a difference. But damn $3000 for a pair of Nordost Valhalla cables? :eek:

A couple of years back a buddy of mine did a head to head with these and a set of AQ CV-8's w/the 72v BP and the AQ's sounded much better in a lot of different aspects. This was on a ML system.

FYI, I picked up the AQ's for less than 500 smackers. Not to say the Nordost's wouldn't sound better on another rig, but on that day, on that system they did not perform as well.

To answer your question as to whether or not they are worth it? Yes and no. If you are running less than stellar gear with MP3 as your source, no. That said, if your system is up to par with higher fidelity, then yes. They can make or break a system's performance. As far as these particular SC's? No.

Jstas

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Why do you think the cable people are trying to change your mind?

All of the cable people that I associate with are content to only discuss cables with other cable people. However, some cable people, such as myself, will discuss cables with outsiders on a limited basis.

Did one of the cable people abuse you in some way in the past?

You seem paranoid.

Again, with the personal attacks.

What is the point of an argument other than to present an opposing point of view for understanding and acceptance?

I presented my side. There have been numerous posts, both honest efforts and outright fallacies and broken logic to try to convince those of us who do not share similar ideas towards speaker wires that we are "paranoid", "don't know because we've never tried it" and that our gear is "sub par".

Well guess what sport, you ARE trying to cram it down people's throat with passive aggressive posturing in your dismissing of other opinions for a straw man of an argument as well as red herrings and ad hominem attacks. I'm not paranoid in the least. These conversations are exactly why I can't tolerate the "tech section" of any audio forum half the time. I'm not paranoid, I'm not anything. I'm saying that science says that you and everyone who shares similar views is wrong. I do not believe that cables make a difference and without repeatable results that show anything more than length, gauge and purity matter I'm not changing my mind so stop trying. Materials can make a difference like the difference between copper, silver, gold and steel but that has been established long before the cable debate started.

So instead of calling me paranoid and being dismissive, if you want to change my mind, get to doin' some sciencin' and show me some real results. Insulting me and telling me that both myself and my gear are inferior is not the way to go about it.

DarqueKnight

Jstas wrote: »

And honestly, it doesn't bother me that someone wants to drop that kind of dough on copper. What bothers me is that those same someones try to tell me that their opinion is true and they want to ignore the science behind it because it doesn't jive with what they think.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification and car audio tutorial.

I'm sorry that some cable people have tried to force their opinion on you without adequate scientific proof. Please know that all cable people are not alike and that most of us good decent people who are acting in good faith.

concealer404

So the people that hear a difference are wrong...?

DarqueKnight

Jstas wrote: »

Again, with the personal attacks.

I wasn't attacking you John. I was just stating my perception. Sorry if I misread you.

Jstas wrote: »

These conversations are exactly why I can't tolerate the "tech section" of any audio forum half the time.

If it bothers you that much, why read or participate in such discussions?

Jstas wrote: »

I'm not changing my mind so stop trying.

Jstas wrote: »

...if you want to change my mind, get to doin' some sciencin' and show me some real results.

I really don't see where anyone is trying to change your mind...at least I'm not. Why do you think the cable people are trying to change your mind?

heiney9

Cogito wrote: »

Sorry, but no matter how much maketing hype and voodoo science applied, Nordost Valhalla cables still don't defy physics. Save your money or buy better speakers.

And you know this because you've heard said cables and determined YOU can't hear a difference in your rig .

In the right system they COULD make a difference then it's up to the indivdual to decide if the price tag is worth the difference.

H9

halo71

I am not doubting anyone's claims that better cables make a difference. But I at what price point in gear do these cables shine? I have heard several say that with better equipment these make a difference. At what point?

vc69

halo71 wrote: »

I am not doubting anyone's claims that better cables make a difference. But I at what price point in gear do these cables shine? I have heard several say that with better equipment these make a difference. At what point?

I have found that it is right around the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" price point.

halo71

In this case I am not so sure. I mean, would my Onkyo Integra hooked to a pair of Monitor 10's sound better with a $300 set of cables versus 12ga wire from Home Depot for let's say $30? Is there an audible difference with cheaper equipment? One would think that for $270 more, you should hear a difference right? Or does the difference start at a $1500 amp and $2000 speakers? Bottom line is, where does the difference start if there is a difference?

concealer404

halo71 wrote: »

In this case I am not so sure. I mean, would my Onkyo Integra hooked to a pair of Monitor 10's sound better with a $300 set of cables versus 12ga wire from Home Depot for let's say $30? Is there an audible difference with cheaper equipment? One would think that for $270 more, you should hear a difference right? Or does the difference start at a $1500 amp and $2000 speakers? Bottom line is, where does the difference start if there is a difference?

Differs from system to system. Only you can know.

I would say in your case, yeah, you would probably hear a difference. I heard a large difference even back when i was running my Adcom pre in place of my B&K, and i would say that setup may have been inferior to yours.

treitz3

halo71 wrote: »

I am not doubting anyone's claims that better cables make a difference. But I at what price point in gear do these cables shine? I have heard several say that with better equipment these make a difference. At what point?

Gary, it depends on your own ears. Learning things like the answer to your question is part of the hobby and is something that can not be addressed in one simple answer. It's kind of a loaded question that still no matter what gear you may have....boils down to what your ears hear and pick up on.