Upgrading internal speaker wire?

bigaudiofanatic

Than if all that is true than over 40% OF YOU GUYS ARE SHOOTING YOURSELF IN THE FOOT. FOR SPENDING EXCESSIVE MONEY FOR SPEAKER WIRES. As I have said I was bored and decided to play around. After the new speaker wires from MIT and upgrading the wire from the post to the crossover on one of the speakers. I can say that the volume on the left speaker sounds louder. Not by much but is louder. I had to adjust the fade by 1 to the right.

concealer404

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

Than if all that is true than over 40% OF YOU GUYS ARE SHOOTING YOURSELF IN THE FOOT. FOR SPENDING EXCESSIVE MONEY FOR SPEAKER WIRES. As I have said I was bored and decided to play around. After the new speaker wires from MIT and upgrading the wire from the post to the crossover on one of the speakers. I can say that the volume on the left speaker sounds louder. Not by much but is louder. I had to adjust the fade by 1 to the right.

You aren't quite getting it buddy. Speaker wires go from amp to speaker. That would be considered a "longer run" in most cases compared to the short distance from the crossover to the speaker.

heiney9

Mazeroth wrote: »

You have a drain pipe that has water flowing through it constantly. From the source, the first section of pipe is 100 feet long and 8" in diameter. Then, it comes to a reducer that takes the 8" pipe down to a 1" pipe. The 1" pipe run is for only 5 feet. Finally, the 1" pipe changes back to an 8" pipe. How well is the water going to flow? The same can be said for speaker wire hitting the crossover (the 1" pipe) and then back to an 8" section to go back to the speaker drivers. It doesn't make sense to go back to 8" when your flow is limited to the 1" pipe after the reducer.

Last time I checked water flowing thru a pipe isn't the same as electrons flowing thru a conductor. I get the analogy but it really doesn't apply as electron interaction with the conductor has nothing in common with water in a pipe. The pipe is just a conduit for the water to flow, electrons interact with a conductor beyond just flowing from one end to the other.

Your analogy makes more sense for large runs of wire when the flow from one end to the other can be affected by the large distance the electrons have to flow.

If this were the case then using a solid core wire in the largest possible diameter would give us the best results...........but it doesn't.

H9

bigaudiofanatic

concealer404 wrote: »

You aren't quite getting it buddy. Speaker wires go from amp to speaker. That would be considered a "longer run" in most cases compared to the short distance from the crossover to the speaker.

I do understand that. But if your saying that the smaller wire on the crossover will not have that much effect because of its length than it should make some difference how the power gets to the crossover at least.

bigaudiofanatic

I am not aruging for the sake of arguing just trying to gain more info.

concealer404

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

I do understand that. But if your saying that the smaller wire on the crossover will not have that much effect because of its length than it should make some difference how the power gets to the crossover at least.

No, i'm saying that upgrading wire PAST the crossover won't have much affect at all, 1) because it's a very short distance, and 2) it's already been through the crossover.

That said, it certainly can't hurt, so knock yourself out. If i was in there doing the same thing, i'd probably do it. Just 'cuz.

But in terms of how the signal gets to the crossover, i believe you're exactly right, there.

concealer404

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

I am not aruging for the sake of arguing just trying to gain more info.

We know. Or at least i do.

heiney9

I'm not really trying to be argumentative either. But there is a HUGE difference when electrons have to flow a few centimeters vs. a few feet. This is not taking into account the interaction (beyond simple flow of electrons) with the actual conduit. This is why shielded wire, silver wire, Cardas, Neotech, etc all can affect the sound..........not simply because of flow from one end to the other.

I used to have M* 10g speaker wire way back when larger was better. I switched to 14g twisted pair and those cables sounded a lot better so it's not just about having the largest diameter.

Anyway........I believe in upgrading internal wiring but it don't think just increasing the gauge of the wire is nec. going to make an audible improvement. It certainly can't hurt to have fresh non-corroded wire in place.

Face

F1nut wrote: »

You'll get a far better return by upgrading the caps and resistors than changing the wire.

I agree.

As for as inboard wire making a difference, it can, depending on the application. If it's only a couple of inches long, it's unlikely that you'd hear a differences unless either wire is not of a sufficient gauge. But if it's a few feet long, any differences can be noticeable.

heiney9

The thing I found with the internal wiring on my 5B's is it was 20 years old and had heavy oxidation under the insolation as well as the quick connect ends. So I just replaced the wire with a larger gauge OFC copper zip cord, since I was already in there upgrading X-over parts. I also removed the tweeter fuse from the circuit and used heavy gauge OFC copper wire for the jumpers where the fuse used to be. De-Oxit Pro Gold was used on all quick connectors and driver connections to help slow future oxidation.

Simple enough and the biggest thing I got rid of was the oxidation.

H9

Mazeroth

You can replace all the wires, caps, resistors and inductors you want, as they will barely make an audible difference. If you don't have room treatments and only put in treatments at the first reflection point it will make a 100x bigger impact than anything you try to mod your speakers with.

2005 Dayton Ohio DiY speaker meet. Many very good speaker designers there and upwards of 50 guys that build speakers as a hobby. A/B blind test in two different rooms. The first room had electrolytic caps versus poly caps. The second room had $500 (for 3 meters, if I recall) speaker cable versus 18 gauge lamp cord from Home Depot. The results? The cap room was a dead draw as to which sounded better and the lamp cord beat out the $500 wire by a few votes. I can't make this stuff up. I was there to witness it. Each listener sat down with a control box and could A/B on their own. Then they would say which sounded better, their vote was taken, and they were shown which they picked. Then the next guy entered the room.

Speaker placement, room treatments, EQ and the likes are SO much more effective at making speakers sound better and more neutral. That's where you need to start if you want better sound. The little tweaks...complete waste of time.

If you want to really get great sound, sound that will make you nearly **** yourself, look into digital room correction. Audiolense is an example:

http://www.juicehifi.com/index.html

Face

Mazeroth wrote: »

You can replace all the wires, caps, resistors and inductors you want, as they will barely make an audible difference.

:rolleyes:

2005 Dayton Ohio DiY speaker meet. Many very good speaker designers there and upwards of 50 guys that build speakers as a hobby. A/B blind test in two different rooms. The first room had electrolytic caps versus poly caps.

What else do you expect from listening in an auditorium sized room?

Next year's event will have a similar test with better components.

Mazeroth

Face wrote: »

:rolleyes:

What else do you expect from listening in an auditorium sized room?

Next year's event will have a similar test with better components.

Hotel room with room treatments. High quality 2-ways were used with Scan Speak Revelators in the one room and Peerless drivers in the other.

Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

Face

Mazeroth wrote: »

Hotel room with room treatments. High quality 2-ways were used with Scan Speak Revelators in the one room and Peerless drivers in the other.

Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

I may be thinking of images from another event.

As for better components, I was referring to capacitors. IIRC, last time NPE's and either Sonic Caps or Daytons were used. I don't know how much I can disclose, but this time around will be 4 or more different caps, from Dayton, Claritycap, Solen, and others.

DarqueKnight

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

Your forgetting sense you are actually referring to electricity or current.

No, I am not. I assure you that I am quite familiar with how electricity and current works...even down to the molecular and atomic levels.;)

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

Their would be more than more runner. So you would want a wider track for as long as possible.

No, you wouldn't. At least not inside the speaker.

In my previous analogy, the defects in the indoor track were analogous to the impediments to current that are caused by the resistors, inductors and capacitors of every crossover. No matter how high the quality of the crossover components, the audio signal will loose some amount of information by traveling through them. However, the better the quality of the crossover components, the less information is lost.

In the crossover, the electrical resistance caused by the resistors and the reactance of the capacitors and inductors reduces the amplitude, and therefore the power and information carrying content, of the audio signal. Wire has resistive and capacitive properties. Increasing crossover component lead length and size and the size of internal wiring over a certain point can introduce additional resistance and capacitance that can adversely affect the audio signal.

Another thing to consider is that larger wire requires a greater amount of insulation. Wire insulation has capacitive properties that causes energy to be absorbed from and released back into the audio signal. The represents additional noise in the audio signal. Bear in mind that the audio signal will unavoidably be subjected to a reduction in signal to noise ratio just by the electrical properties of the crossover components. There is also additional loading on the audio signal by the coils in the speaker drivers and tweeters.

Replacing internal speaker wiring with higher quality wire that has a higher quality less capacitive insulation may bring some audible benefit, but I would not recommend using larger wire.

You cannot compare speaker cables to internal speaker wire. They serve two purposes. Residential streets and multi-lane freeways both transport traffic, but they are designed to handle that traffic differently according to the environments they serve.

A well designed speaker cable serves to preserve as much of the high level signal coming from the power amplifier as possible while protecting that signal from the harsh effects of environmental noise (EFI/RFI). Short runs of speaker cable are ideal, but usually impractical. Larger, lower resistance conductors and insulation with better dielectric properties can counteract the disadvantages of long cable runs...up to a point.

A speaker cable serves as both transport and "bodyguard" for the audio signal. Inside a well designed speaker cabinet, the bodyguard function is not required. In that environment, you want the wire to "get out of the way" and let the passive signal processor, the crossover, do its thing. The crossover chops down, compartmentalizes, and reroutes the audio signal. The crossover's passive processing does harm to the audio signal which is much greater in degree than that caused by the speaker cable. You certainly don't want to add anything to the crossover that will make its job more difficult.

Hope this helps.

BAD ASP

DarqueKnight wrote: »

No, I am not. I assure you that I am quite familiar with how electricity and current works...even down to the molecular and atomic levels.;)



No, you wouldn't. At least not inside the speaker.

In my previous analogy, the defects in the indoor track were analogous to the impediments to current that are caused by the resistors, inductors and capacitors of every crossover. No matter how high the quality of the crossover components, the audio signal will loose some amount of information by traveling through them. However, the better the quality of the crossover components, the less information is lost.

In the crossover, the electrical resistance caused by the resistors and the reactance of the capacitors and inductors reduces the amplitude, and therefore the power and information carrying content, of the audio signal. Wire has resistive and capacitive properties. Increasing crossover component lead length and size and the size of internal wiring over a certain point can introduce additional resistance and capacitance that can adversely affect the audio signal.

Another thing to consider is that larger wire requires a greater amount of insulation. Wire insulation has capacitive properties that causes energy to be absorbed from and released back into the audio signal. The represents additional noise in the audio signal. Bear in mind that the audio signal will unavoidably be subjected to a reduction in signal to noise ratio just by the electrical properties of the crossover components. There is also additional loading on the audio signal by the coils in the speaker drivers and tweeters.

Replacing internal speaker wiring with higher quality wire that has a higher quality less capacitive insulation may bring some audible benefit, but I would not recommend using larger wire.

You cannot compare speaker cables to internal speaker wire. They serve two purposes. Residential streets and multi-lane freeways both transport traffic, but they are designed to handle that traffic differently according to the environments they serve.

A well designed speaker cable serves to preserve as much of the high level signal coming from the power amplifier as possible while protecting that signal from the harsh effects of environmental noise (EFI/RFI). Short runs of speaker cable are ideal, but usually impractical. Larger, lower resistance conductors and insulation with better dielectric properties can counteract the disadvantages of long cable runs...up to a point.

A speaker cable serves as both transport and "bodyguard" for the audio signal. Inside a well designed speaker cabinet, the bodyguard function is not required. In that environment, you want the wire to "get out of the way" and let the passive signal processor, the crossover, do its thing. The crossover chops down, compartmentalizes, and reroutes the audio signal. The crossover's passive processing does harm to the audio signal which is much greater in degree than that caused by the speaker cable. You certainly don't want to add anything to the crossover that will make its job more difficult.

Hope this helps.

I have been hanging around here for a couple of years now and today, this moment, there has been an epiphany for me..... Darque I think I understand you. I am now going to hang up and make an appointment with a therapist... Merry Christmas to all and to all a DarqueKnight!

DarqueKnight

Mazeroth wrote: »

You can replace all the wires, caps, resistors and inductors you want, as they will barely make an audible difference.

In my nearly 25 years of modding speaker crossovers and listening to modded speakers in my home and in the homes of others, my experiences have been the opposite of this.

Of course, perceived audio differences depend on the priorities and preferences of the listener. For some DIY speaker builders, the only determinants of "good sound" are loudness and then clarity. For the audiophile, additional sonic attributes such as image weight, pinpoint and stable images within a sound stage, sound stage dimensions, holography, 3-dimensionality and fine detail come into play. If the improvements that premium crossover components bring to the table are not things that a listener is sensitive to, then premium crossover components are of no apparent value.

Mazeroth wrote: »

If you don't have room treatments and only put in treatments at the first reflection point it will make a 100x bigger impact than anything you try to mod your speakers with.

Not necessarily. Room treatments are important enhancements to good sound, but listening to compromised speakers in an acoustically perfect room is not a pleasant experience. I'll take a good clean optimized audio signal in a bad room over an average audio signal in an acoustically perfect room any day. For example, my office at work is an acoustically compromised 11' x 11' room with an 8' ceiling. I bought a pair of SDA CRS+ speakers to use with my office rig. I didn't think that modding the crossover would be of much value since the room acoustics are poor and my listening position is with my back to the speakers. My curiosity eventually got the better of me and I switched out the stock CRS+'s with a modded pair of CRS+'s from my home office. The sonic improvement, in that little square office space, was dramatic. The office rig's CRS+'s were immediately modded. I also went further by replacing the 90 wpc integrated amp with a 200 wpc power amp and separate preamp. The stock power cords of the amp, preamp and source components were also replaced. All of these changes brought audible improvements in audio performance aspects that are important to me. If I were just interested in "loud and clear" sound, I imagine the Sony boom box in my garage would suffice. However, if I were an automotive hobbyist and spent significant time in my garage, you can be assured that the Sony boom box would be replaced by something much, much better in sound quality.;)

Mazeroth wrote: »

The results? The cap room was a dead draw as to which sounded better and the lamp cord beat out the $500 wire by a few votes. I can't make this stuff up. I was there to witness it. Each listener sat down with a control box and could A/B on their own. Then they would say which sounded better, their vote was taken, and they were shown which they picked. Then the next guy entered the room.

This is meaningless without knowing the listening preferences of the listeners. This is like telling me that some guys evaluated the physical attractiveness of two women and both women looked the same...then when I see pictures of the women, one had an absolutely gorgeous face, a perfect "hourglass" figure and size 40 DD ****, the other woman had a butt ugly face, a boyish stick-like figure and size...40...DD...****. Yet, all the guys said the two women looked exactly the same.:rolleyes:

DarqueKnight

BAD ASP wrote: »

I am now going to hang up and make an appointment with a therapist...

Why is a therapist needed?

I inferred that you meant this jokingly, but I don't see the connection.

BAD ASP

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Why is a therapist needed?

I inferred that you meant this jokingly, but I don't see the connection.

Darque, I absolutely meant this jokingly. The therapist is because I understood thoroughly your analogy as it applied to this wacky hobby we're in and I merely meant that if anyone has gone this far then they must need therapy....LOL joke :D:D

DarqueKnight

Ahhhh ok.

I have occasionally been told that my apparent obsession with audio and video is "kinda sick". However, this came from someone with 14 million pairs of shoes.;)

I wonder if I would still be "kinda sick" if I were equally dedicated to buying diamond jewelry.;)

bigaudiofanatic

LOL well as I have said I was and still am bored. When you have been unemployed for over a year you tend to start looking for stuff to do after looking for most of the week for work. When you go from a maintenance mechanic making 14.75 an hour to nothing but unemployment. You tend to look for a good job.

bigaudiofanatic

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Ahhhh ok.

I have occasionally been told that my apparent obsession with audio and video is "kinda sick". However, this came from someone with 14 million pairs of shoes.;)

I wonder if I would still be "kinda sick" if I were equally dedicated to buying diamond jewelry.;)

LOL alright Elton John

DarqueKnight

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

LOL well as I have said I was and still am bored.

It is good that you are keeping your mind occupied. I wish you success in soon finding good employment that matches your interests and skills.

DarqueKnight

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

LOL alright Elton John

The jewelry would be for her, not for me.;)

dorokusai

I'd upgrade the wire in my loudspeaker only if I was making a noose with the leftovers.

skrol

I am reluctant to join in this thread but...

When I started contemplating the upgrades to my RTA11TL's I consulted with my former Polk Audio engineer friend. He mentioned the electrolytic caps, the resistors, damping the PR basket... the usual stuff. He did caution me about changing the inductors and the internal wiring as it would likely change the ESR. The XO component values were chosen with that specific gauge wire and wire length. Changing the ESR would alter the XO characteristics. In many cases, the gauge and length of the internal wires are specifically called out in the schematics.

I suppose that there is nothing wrong with altering the XO characteristics as long as the results are pleasing to the listener. I think DarqueKnight is on the money when he says "Of course, perceived audio differences depend on the priorities and preferences of the listener."
Stan

BAD ASP

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Ahhhh ok.

I have occasionally been told that my apparent obsession with audio and video is "kinda sick". However, this came from someone with 14 million pairs of shoes.;)

I wonder if I would still be "kinda sick" if I were equally dedicated to buying diamond jewelry.;)

or hot cars...........

BAD ASP

skrol wrote: »

I am reluctant to join in this thread but...

When I started contemplating the upgrades to my RTA11TL's I consulted with my former Polk Audio engineer friend. He mentioned the electrolytic caps, the resistors, damping the PR basket... the usual stuff. He did caution me about changing the inductors and the internal wiring as it would likely change the ESR. The XO component values were chosen with that specific gauge wire and wire length. Changing the ESR would alter the XO characteristics. In many cases, the gauge and length of the internal wires are specifically called out in the schematics.

I suppose that there is nothing wrong with altering the XO characteristics as long as the results are pleasing to the listener. I think DarqueKnight is on the money when he says "Of course, perceived audio differences depend on the priorities and preferences of the listener."
Stan

I agree Stan, I bought a pair of stock 1.2's and was completely satisfied with the sound. I read here about upgrading the tweets and having the crossovers upgraded. I hesitated for awhile and got to know the stock 1.2's pretty good. I then proceeded to install the upgraded tweets and the sound was different, not necessarily better but still a very nice sounding speaker to my ears. I then went to the next step and had Ben upgrade the crossovers. When I first turned them on they sounded overly bright and not warm at all. I was told that there was a burn in required. I did let them burn in and what an amazing change. To my ears the sound was improved dramatically. A friend who wasn't aware that I had upgraded the speakers came over for a bit of movie watching (Iron Man) and then some music afterwards commented on the sound. He was amazed that the music was 2 channel and wasn't coming from the center channel as well. He has some Martin Logans and I believe he has speaker envy but I don't think he'll admit it openly.

bigaudiofanatic

DarqueKnight wrote: »

It is good that you are keeping your mind occupied. I wish you success in soon finding good employment that matches your interests and skills.

Thank you I am currently attending college. I just finished my first semester with all a's and will be starting my next semester in about 8 weeks. My master is Computer Science and Networking. I think doing this will help me get a good job that will help menot only move out but allow me to enjoy my interests more.

DarqueKnight

skrol wrote: »

When I started contemplating the upgrades to my RTA11TL's I consulted with my former Polk Audio engineer friend. He mentioned the electrolytic caps, the resistors, damping the PR basket... the usual stuff. He did caution me about changing the inductors and the internal wiring as it would likely change the ESR. The XO component values were chosen with that specific gauge wire and wire length. Changing the ESR would alter the XO characteristics. In many cases, the gauge and length of the internal wires are specifically called out in the schematics.

Prior to modding my SDA 1B's, I consulted with a Polk Audio engineer who also told me to leave the internal wiring, drivers, and inductors alone. I went ahead and replaced the internal wiring in one of the 1B's anyway and compared it to the other: I heard no difference at all. This was in 1990.

There have been some advances in wire formulation, wire insulation and cable conditioning devices since then. I am still considering replacing the internal wiring in my 1.2TL's with a high quality copper or silver wire clad in Teflon insulation. The wire would be conditioned on my Cable Cooker prior to installation. While this project is interesting, I'm just not in any hurry to go back inside my speakers. Listening to my speakers is infinitely more enjoyable than touching them.:)