What Amp to get....
Comments
-
One does not have to take out a second mortgage to get wonderful sounding gear. The quality of sound does not climb linearly with the price. That applies to both solid state and tube gear.
Spending ten times more for Mark Levinson gear does not buy you ten times better sound. Believe it or not, sometimes you pay extra just for the brand badge. :eek:
Perhaps with some "brands" and I never come close to taking a 2nd mtg. for gear.
My only point (and this is generalization) is more watts doesn't always mean better sound and it's not neccesarry to run most speakers if you have a quality piece. I chuckle when I read the ridiculous amounts of power people post about.
It would take a helluva lot to dethrone my Pass. I have no doubt it can be done but at a cost I'm not willing to entertain. I will be moving up the Pass line shortly.
Of course this is all IMHO, but I think Pass makes the absoulte best sounding amps regardless of price or badge. I will probably never entertain owning another brand of amp. I've found my huckleberry.
YMMV
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Perhaps with some "brands" and I never come close to taking a 2nd mtg. for gear.
My only point (and this is generalization) is more watts doesn't always mean better sound and it's not neccesarry to run most speakers if you have a quality piece. I chuckle when I read the ridiculous amounts of power people post about.
It would take a helluva lot to dethrone my Pass. I have no doubt it can be done but at a cost I'm not willing to entertain. I will be moving up the Pass line shortly.
Of course this is all IMHO, but I think Pass makes the absoulte best sounding amps regardless of price or badge. I will probably never entertain owning another brand of amp. I've found my huckleberry.
YMMV
H9
I agree. I would NEVER buy a power amp based soley upon power output, but I do disregard amps that don't provide enough "oomph" for my application. This rules out about 75+% of tube amps. At least anything reasonalby priced.
Unlike loudspeakers, I can't claim to hear a distinct difference between well built amps, if at all. Sometimes, I "think" I hear the difference between tube and solid state, but I can't say with certainty what differences I hear (Softer top end mostly). To me, they all sound pretty much the same if used withing their capabilities.
I look for build quality, reliability, power (As most of the speakers I drive are rather low efficiency) and "bang for the buck". For the past 15+ years, my current ADCOM equipment has provided thousands of hours of flawless performance and reliabilty.Hearing is believing. -
If you are regularly listening at 100db+ .....it's not going to matter how much power you have. You'll damage your hearing to the point it won't matter.
I've owned the amps AND the speakers....and i know what I've heard. The SDA SRS 2.3tl's on an Anthem hybrid (40 wpc) loud enough (and clear enough) to wake the dead.
Case closed.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
I agree. I would NEVER buy a power amp based soley upon power output, but I do disregard amps that don't provide enough "oomph" for my application. This rules out about 75+% of tube amps. At least anything reasonalby priced.
Unlike loudspeakers, I can't claim to hear a distinct difference between well built amps, if at all. Sometimes, I "think" I hear the difference between tube and solid state, but I can't say with certainty what differences I hear (Softer top end mostly). To me, they all sound pretty much the same if used withing their capabilities.
I look for build quality, reliability, power (As most of the speakers I drive are rather low efficiency) and "bang for the buck". For the past 15+ years, my current ADCOM equipment has provided thousands of hours of flawless performance and reliabilty.
I guess that's where you and I differ...........I hear very distinct difference's in amps. Also how do you know 75% of the amps lack the ooomph you need, have you auditoned them all? I was a wee bit skeptical about the Aleph at onlt 30wpc and damn............if it didn't blow everything I thought I knew right out of the water.
It's faster, has better dynamics, sweeter, has the among the best midrange and sound stage cues I've yet to hear and the bottom end is anchored and solid...........and I have to try really, really hard to get it to run out of juice.
I always thought my Adcom was a nice compromise of cost vs. sound..........I was wrong! At around $1K used the Aleph has totally taken my system to a new level. It's also built to be ultra reliable. It can drive a direct short w/out damage and it has such a simple 3gain stage topology as well as no adjustable settings and very little negative feedback. It runs hot since it's single ended class A.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
If you are regularly listening at 100db+ .....it's not going to matter how much power you have. You'll damage your hearing to the point it won't matter.
BDT
I'm not listening to test tones...Hearing is believing. -
I'm not listening to test tones...
Yeah.................that's not what he was refering to. :rolleyes:"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
I guess that's where you and I differ...........I hear very distinct difference's in amps. Also how do you know 75% of the amps lack the ooomph you need, have you auditoned them all? I was a wee bit skeptical about the Aleph at onlt 30wpc and damn............if it didn't blow everything I thought I knew right out of the water.
It's faster, has better dynamics, sweeter, has the among the best midrange and sound stage cues I've yet to hear and the bottom end is anchored and solid...........and I have to try really, really hard to get it to run out of juice.
I always thought my Adcom was a nice compromise of cost vs. sound..........I was wrong! At around $1K used the Aleph has totally taken my system to a new level. It's also built to be ultra reliable. It can drive a direct short w/out damage and it has such a simple 3gain stage topolgy as well as no adjustable settings and very little negative feedback. It runs hot since it's single ended class A.
H9
Please don't take this the wrong way, but there have been countless cases of people saying they hear distinct differences between amps, yet virtually every time these people do a double blind test, the results are not so "cut n dry". Am I saying that you DON'T hear a difference? Nope, not at all. I am convinced that you do hear the difference and that's all that matters.
No, I have not listened to EVERY tube amp made. I don't need to. I know apx. how much power I require to drive my loudspeakers to the levels I prefer. In my case, 200 w/ch RMS +/- seems to be the sweet spot. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single tube amp under $2k (The max I would consider) that can do it.Hearing is believing. -
A four out of five double blind test bought my Krell over a YBA integrated. The test was done using a Radio Shack dB meter to match volume as close as possible. Two of the participants were girls that play in a major university band and they distinctly thought the Krell more realistic sounding.
It all comes down to what YOU are looking for in an amp. -
Yeah.................that's not what he was refering to. :rolleyes:
Even listening at moderate levels, music can easily exceed 100 dB. That doesn't mean I'm exposed to 100 dB+ sound continuously because I have lots of power available. Hence, the comment about test tones.Hearing is believing. -
Even listening at moderate levels, music can easily exceed 100 dB. That doesn't mean I'm exposed to 100 dB+ sound continuously because I have lots of power available. Hence, the comment about test tones.
Have you ever used a calibarated SPL meter to measure the musical output at your listening position? Because 100dB+ is not in any way shape or form moderate.
My avg listening is done between about 75-85dB and when I'm peaking at 90dB it is fricking loud!!!!! And yes the measurements are taken using a calibrated Rat Shack spl meter. I sit about 8-8 1/2 feet away. 75-80dB is moderate.
I'm sure we all have our own definition of moderate but I doubt many would think 100dB+ is moderate.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Have you ever used a calibarated SPL meter to measure the musical output at your listening position? Because 100dB+ is not in any way shape or form moderate.
My avg listening is done between about 75-85dB and when I'm peaking at 90dB it is fricking loud!!!!! And yes the measurements are taken using a calibrated Rat Shack spl meter. I sit about 8-8 1/2 feet away. 75-80dB is moderate.
I'm sure we all have our own definition of moderate but I doubt many would think 100dB+ is moderate.
H9
+1...100db is ear splitting loud, well outside the comfort zone of being considerd a morerate listening level, 75-80db is considered moderate. I don't think anyone can tolerate 100db for too long of a period."2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up. -
Ron Temple wrote: »Since one of yourw was mine, I'll chime in. I ran a competition between 3 amps, a Carver TFM35, the Luxman and an Adcom 555. They all had strong points, the Carver was laid back and wide, the Adcom was more in your face detailed. The Luxman sounded more refined than either, slightly more detailed than the Carver and with the top end gently rolled off. I never cranked it to clipping. It's a solid amp. That said, there are a great many solid options. I wouldn't say that any of the 3 amps above are better or worse, just different.
Excellent comment! They all sound different but not necessarily better than one another. Before my Krell I owned a Carver TFM-75 (in f%#$*!g incredible). There is something to be said for nearly limitless power, the TFM-75 put out a minimum of 750 wpc into an 8 ohm load! It was immensely powerful but lacked some of the refinement that I found in the Krell.
I dislike Adcom amps, the Parsound HCA-1000 I owned was OK. Bryston, Proceed and NAD (2400PE) were definite cuts above the aforementioned brands to my ears. I am definitely not a tube guy! If you can stretch your budget a bit look at Bryston, especially the 3B or 4B. They will both handily dust the competition that you have mentioned (IMO). -
Excellent comment! They all sound different but not necessarily better than one another. Before my Krell I owned a Carver TFM-75 (in f%#$*!g incredible). There is something to be said for nearly limitless power, the TFM-75 put out a minimum of 750 wpc into an 8 ohm load! It was immensely powerful but lacked some of the refinement that I found in the Krell.
I dislike Adcom amps, the Parsound HCA-1000 I owned was OK. Bryston, Proceed and NAD (2400PE) were definite cuts above the aforementioned brands to my ears. I am definitely not a tube guy! If you can stretch your budget a bit look at Bryston, especially the 3B or 4B. They will both handily dust the competition that you have mentioned (IMO).
If you are not a tube guy, probably the sound you and I are looking for is fairly different. I am looking for something that is relatively smooth and soft (high end), but still defined especially in the midrange section. I don't need loads of bass to thump me in the chest, but I would like it well defined (punchy, I guess would be the word). So far, from what a couple people have told me the Luxman would be pretty good for what I'm lloking for.
I would still like some more people to give me some input on the Sunfire Symphonic amp and the Sunfire Load Invariant Stereo Power Amplifier. Thanks again for everyones input.
In closing, I didn't start this thread to become a "who's amp is best" or "what's an appropriate listening level" so please just enjoy your amp at the level you like to listen to it and give your thoughts on what the amp sounds like to you (i.e. clarity, detail (in bass, midrange, highs) smoothness(or lack of), depth and width of soundstage, and even signal to noise ratios and other usefull stats. I'm not trying to criticize, just trying to keep it civilized.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
I don't think anyone can tolerate 100db for too long of a period.
When it's as smooth as silk it's no problem, at least here at The Mars Hotel.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
If you are not a tube guy, probably the sound you and I are looking for is fairly different.
Good point as Krell is about as far as one can get from the musical sound of tubes.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Good point as Krell is about as far as one can get from the musical sound of tubes.
Hi F1nut, I really respect you ideas and thoughts on this site. Have you heard any of the amps I am looking at? If so, what are your ideas about them? If you haven't at least I know not to look at Krell amps. Thanks for that input.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Can you demo any of the amps before purchasing.....always the best way.
My personal opinion, drop the Adcom from your list. Toss up between the other two, but the Sunfire will sound more tube like.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Can you demo any of the amps before purchasing.....always the best way.
My personal opinion, drop the Adcom from your list. Toss up between the other two, but the Sunfire will sound more tube like.
I was picking up on the fact that the Adcom should be tossed out. Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, There are no high quality stereo shops here in Salem, Oregon. I could go to Portland, but the three amps I'm looking at are no longer in production. I would have to find a used place that carries them. Even then, I would not be hearing it on "my system" but I guess I would be able to hear some differences between the amps.
How is the Sunfire's clarity and detail in (bass,midrange, highs)? How is the bass on these? Thanks again.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Yeah ok, I thought perhaps your choices were for sale local to you.
Sunfire amps are not the last word in clarity and detail (get the Krell if you want that), but the bass is solid.
I may have missed it, but what are you looking to spend?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I am looking to spend in the $400.00 to $900.00 range. But was hoping to stay towards the lower end more because I need to fix one of my tube amps which will cost some $$$$$, unfortunately.
Is the Sunfire more detailed and clear than the Luxman?
Also, do you know the difference between the "Symphonic" Sunfire amp and the "Series II" (see link and pic)?
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/forum/thread/254759/sunfire-symphonic-reference-amplifer
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Ok, in that case don't expect perfection.
I'm not sure what the used prices are, but Conrad-Johnson's SS amps are kinda tube like sounding also.
I'd give that edge to Luxman.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
No, no not perfection by any means. Just trying to get the best "possible" sound that I like for the price range.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Also, How big of a difference between the Luxman and the Sunfire as far as clarity and detail (in all ranges. i.e lows mids highs)? Basically, I am looking for a good combination of smooth tube sound (high end) and clarity and detail of sound. Thanks again.
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
The differences your asking people to describe will be totaly dependant on the other gear in your system. People can only give their own personal impressions of an amp in their system and it may sound different in yours. Know what I'm sayin' ?HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
pearsall001 wrote: »+1...100db is ear splitting loud, well outside the comfort zone of being considerd a morerate listening level, 75-80db is considered moderate. I don't think anyone can tolerate 100db for too long of a period.
I can and do on a regular basis when I am listening. -
If you are not a tube guy, probably the sound you and I are looking for is fairly different. I am looking for something that is relatively smooth and soft (high end), but still defined especially in the midrange section. I don't need loads of bass to thump me in the chest, but I would like it well defined (punchy, I guess would be the word). So far, from what a couple people have told me the Luxman would be pretty good for what I'm lloking for.
Pass Aleph 30........only thing is the Aleph has prodigious bass. Not an emphasis on bass just gives all that is really there.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0701/volksamp.htm
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1266250108&/Volksamp-Pass-Aleph-30-2-chann
His price is little high. Offer him $1K shipped and see what happens."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
As long as you can deal with the head from a Class A amp, you can pick up a Pass F5 clone for $500. http://6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt7/f5.html"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
-
OK! I went with a Luxman M-117. Got it for $230.00!!!!! Not bad at all! I will still have to wait and see what it sounds like for myself though. By peoples' descriptions it seems to have the sound I'm looking for. Thanks for everyones' input.
I was also looking at an Aragon 8008bb amp. Has anyone heard this amp and can give their impression on it? Thanks again.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
I think you'll be disappointed with the M-117, but then we all have different expectations.
Good luck.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Since the going rate for these is >$500, I don't see how you could disappointed.OK! I went with a Luxman M-117. Got it for $230.00!!!!! Not bad at all! I will still have to wait and see what it sounds like for myself though. By peoples' descriptions it seems to have the sound I'm looking for. Thanks for everyones' input.
I was also looking at an Aragon 8008bb amp. Has anyone heard this amp and can give their impression on it? Thanks again.
Combo rig:
Onkyo NR1007 pre-pro, Carver TFM 45(fronts), Carver TFM 35 (surrounds)
SDA 1C, CS400i, SDA 2B
PB13Ultra RO
BW Silvers
Oppo BDP-83SE
