improving SRS Bass

vmaxer

heiney9 wrote: »

Very large, open rooms with high vaulted ceilings are very, very hard to pressurize. This is the rare instance where I would recommend a sub to fill in the low end so you don;t have to push your amp so hard into clipping to get the sound level or impact you desire.

Or get soemthing like a Pass Labs X300 for amplification. You will not have the same problem with that amp. Of course maybe like me you don't have $6K to spend

H9

Heiney9,

I can't find any info on the Pass Labs X300?? Is that the correct model??

Not that I can afford one, but looking...:o

heiney9

vmaxer wrote: »

Heiney9,

I can't find any info on the Pass Labs X300?? Is that the correct model??

Not that I can afford one, but looking...:o

Sorry, brain **** X350 or X350.5

H9

Tour2ma

Hey, DK,
Still have any of those SDA books? Lost both of mine to Hurricane Ike...
Here's one bit you missed in your pre-departure vivisection.

Schurkey wrote:

It DOES mean that a perfectly reasonable amp of let's say 100 w/p/c at 8 ohms will very likely do a perfectly reasonable job of powering 4 ohm speakers at 5 watts continuous, 35 watts peak.

Actually your "reasonable amp" would have a problem.
First, 5w continuous is not exactly low level listening... at least it's not with speakers of any reasonable sensitivity (say 91db/w-m) and listening at any reasonable distance (say 12'). Continuous spl would be 96-ish.
Second, what genre' do you listen to that has a < 9db dynamic range? Even rock's range runs around 20 db. Classical LP 50db... classical CD 80db. But for rock we'd need 2**7 (or 128) times the continuous power (5w) or 640w.

turbopantera wrote:

As an engineer, I tend to ramble on and sometimes assume that others "just understand". Bad habit.

I resemble that remark... I are an engineer, too... or at least I was at one time. ChemE here... In my first post I mentioned room effects, seems that's where you have landed. Certainly in the case of your light fixture rattling 1C's anyway.

h9,
Where did you hear that popping is due to underpowering? Underpowering would mean cllipping and clipping doesn't produce popping in my experience.

I've over driven (actually sounded more like a MW or two farted) my SRS's once (that was enough). With them biamped off four channels of a Sunfire Signature Cinema amp, I guarantee I was not clipping. FYI it was the "Ring Drop".

SR used tone bursts to test speakers, not misic. They listened for driver popping as a sign that the limits of the speaker were reached, i.e., the driver reached the limit of its excursion, or "bottomed out". VC's will heat in continuous (music) duty and your driver mechanics (and impedances) will vary.

snow,
Where's you get your Sunfire info? Curious because your 300x2 comment does mot match what I at least think I know about the Sunfire line.
Link please?

vmaxer,
Your room is big, but it's not that big. A sub would be a great addition for HT, but the SRS's should do the job for music, unless you're some kind of complete bass maniac.
IMO, you've got plenty of amp in your Sig Cin. Are you using your Sunfire's voltage output terminals for the SRS's? They are "punchier" than the current outputs. For grins try bi-wiring your SRS's using the voltage output for the bass and the current output for the tweeter. I bi-amped using the rears' voltage outputs for bass and found the current outputs for my SRS's SL2000's.

vmaxer

Tour2ma wrote: »

Hey, DK,
Still have any of those SDA books? Lost both of mine to Hurricane Ike...
Here's one bit you missed in your pre-departure vivisection.

Actually your "reasonable amp" would have a problem.
First, 5w continuous is not exactly low level listening... at least it's not with speakers of any reasonable sensitivity (say 91db/w-m) and listening at any reasonable distance (say 12'). Continuous spl would be 96-ish.
Second, what genre' do you listen to that has a < 9db dynamic range? Even rock's range runs around 20 db. Classical LP 50db... classical CD 80db. But for rock we'd need 2**7 (or 128) times the continuous power (5w) or 640w.

I resemble that remark... I are an engineer, too... or at least I was at one time. ChemE here... In my first post I mentioned room effects, seems that's where you have landed. Certainly in the case of your light fixture rattling 1C's anyway.

h9,
Where did you hear that popping is due to underpowering? Underpowering would mean cllipping and clipping doesn't produce popping in my experience.

I've over driven (actually sounded more like a MW or two farted) my SRS's once (that was enough). With them biamped off four channels of a Sunfire Signature Cinema amp, I guarantee I was not clipping. FYI it was the "Ring Drop".

SR used tone bursts to test speakers, not misic. They listened for driver popping as a sign that the limits of the speaker were reached, i.e., the driver reached the limit of its excursion, or "bottomed out". VC's will heat in continuous (music) duty and your driver mechanics (and impedances) will vary.

snow,
Where's you get your Sunfire info? Curious because your 300x2 comment does mot match what I at least think I know about the Sunfire line.
Link please?

vmaxer,
Your room is big, but it's not that big. A sub would be a great addition for HT, but the SRS's should do the job for music, unless you're some kind of complete bass maniac.
IMO, you've got plenty of amp in your Sig Cin. Are you using your Sunfire's voltage output terminals for the SRS's? They are "punchier" than the current outputs. For grins try bi-wiring your SRS's using the voltage output for the bass and the current output for the tweeter. I bi-amped using the rears' voltage outputs for bass and found the current outputs for my SRS's SL2000's.

I appreciate the suggestion and all the input from everyone else also!! I will try your suggestion, it may be the week-end before I have time though.

See my signature below, I do have a sub, I just really don't want to use it with music.

Thanks again.

DarqueKnight

Tour2ma wrote: »

Hey, DK,
Still have any of those SDA books? Lost both of mine to Hurricane Ike...

Welcome back Tour. It's nice to see you posting again. Unfortunately those SDA books have passed onto audio lore.

Tour2ma wrote: »

Here's one bit you missed in your pre-departure vivisection.

I try to keep in mind that they mean well. I certainly appreciate instruction and correction from a competent and credible source. I would never want to continue in error. However, it just seems that 99.999999% of the audio scholars who drop by here to "educate" us (after graduating with honors from Audioholics) don't know a gnat's **** hair about what they are talking about.:)

snow

Tour2ma wrote: »

snow,
Where's you get your Sunfire info? Curious because your 300x2 comment does not match what I at least think I know about the Sunfire line.
Link please

What info were you looking for exactly? I assume meaning my comment about the ability to drive low impedance loads easier with the 300 X 2 than the other Sunfires? This came from Bob Carvers own lips but I will see if I can find some techical info to back up this statement if you would like.

From what I could make of this is that both the Sunfire 300 X 2 and 600 X 2 are very similar amps, the 600 X 2 has more output transistors than the 300 X 2 and I believe slightly more capacitance but "I think" the transformers are identical, the weight of the two amps are almost identical.

The 600 X 2 boasts 100 amps peak to peak the 300 X 2 is 80 amps peak to peak and from what I have read the 300 X 2 is rated into a 1 ohm load at 2400 wpc and the 600 X 2 is rated at 2400 wpc into a 2 ohm load but not rated into a 1ohm load hence the statement above.

http://www.sdinfo.com/volume_2_1/productr.html

Please correct me if I am wrong because I ceratainly do not want to spread amy misinformation.




REGARDS SNOW

vmaxer

Tour2ma wrote: »

vmaxer,
Your room is big, but it's not that big. A sub would be a great addition for HT, but the SRS's should do the job for music, unless you're some kind of complete bass maniac.
IMO, you've got plenty of amp in your Sig Cin. Are you using your Sunfire's voltage output terminals for the SRS's? They are "punchier" than the current outputs. For grins try bi-wiring your SRS's using the voltage output for the bass and the current output for the tweeter. I bi-amped using the rears' voltage outputs for bass and found the current outputs for my SRS's SL2000's.

I checked and I am using the voltage sources for both the tweeters and the lows. Should I try the optional current sources for anything??

McLoki

Wow - Turbo, I did not realize you were that close to me. (I would guess about 20-25min max) Things are kind of slammed until after the holidays (birthdays, hosting christmas, etc.) but we will definately have to get together. If you want to try a couple of different amps on your speakers, just let me know.

I have an old pair of SDA-1b's (in terrible shape) and I tried playing them with an Onkyo 777 AVR that I had and can say with certainty that they sounded like crap on it. They sound much better through my Cinepro or Adcom amp (although now the speakers connected are a set of Monitor 10 (series II) and my LSi home theater). If you lke a brighter sound, you may really like the adcom over your NAD AVR.

Anyway - looking forward to getting together sometime and it will be interesting to hear your impressions (and form my own) on the difference between NAD avr's and a large (or larger) external amp......

Anyway - talk to you more soon via PM...

Michael

vmaxer

Lasareath wrote: »

I Just found mine!, It was in some box from when I moved 10 months ago!, I thought it was gone forever

You could sell us copies.....:D

Tour2ma

Man that last post of mine was full of half thoughts with a couple typo's thrown in for good measure...

Time flies... sorry for leaving responces hanging....

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Welcome back Tour. It's nice to see you posting again. Unfortunately those SDA books have passed onto audio lore.

Damn... It's not so much that I miss the books, but that valuable autograph on V2.0... If you ever do another run, lemme know...

snow wrote: »

What info were you looking for exactly?
Please correct me if I am wrong because I ceratainly do not want to spread amy misinformation.
REGARDS SNOW

You guessed my question about the 600x2's lesser ability to handle lower loads. Wasn't/ Isn't that I know any different, just didn't make sense that with its higher peak to peak amperage capabilities that it should have more difficulty than the 300x2. Still doesn't, but that's my problem. Best guess I can make is that in wringing out the extra output something had to be sacarificed... but still can't get there...

Anyway, thanks for the link... I need to chew on Bob C's paper a bit...

vmaxer wrote: »

I checked and I am using the voltage sources for both the tweeters and the lows. Should I try the optional current sources for anything??

Not a mater of should, just a matter of if you're curious enough to explore your amp's unique capability.

Bi-wire with the Voltage to your MW's and Current to your tweeters (remove the jumpers on your speaker terminals, of course).

As I said in my previous post, the current outputs did very nice things for my SRS's SL2000 tweeters. The current outputs mimic the "mellow" output of a tube amp. You can read more in the article snow posted the link to...

Your tl's SL3000's are less bright than the my 2000's, so you might not like the effect, but there's only one way to know.

If you did like the bi-wire set up, I'd urge you to graduate to bi-amping...

Soundmind

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Many people simply don't understand that the reason for high quality, high power amps is not for playing LOUD, it is for playing with more ACCURACY.

Music is full of transients that often require very brief huge increases in power to reproduce accurately. If these transients are clipped, a corresponding amount of realism is subtracted from the music. High power amps have huge RESERVES of power and are more capable of accommodating transient power demands.

As I have gone up in amplifier power, I did not increase my sound levels for listening. Although my sound levels did not increase, my sound stage size, image weight, detail, bass power and realism did increase.

Could not have siad it better.