Tone controls are not evil

jinjuku
jinjuku Posts: 1,523
edited February 2010 in 2 Channel Audio
Thanks to John Krutke for pointing it out:

"The cost of my curiosity is $100...
I've decided that I will not be redesigning the crossover for the Energy C500 system tested previously. Rather, the response is smooth enough that the issues can easily be resolved with a simple adjustment of an average wideband bass and treble control. Tone controls are not evil, and with a system like this they can be a huge benefit. "

Now time to build a pair of his ZA5.3t - TMM 2.5-way tower.
Post edited by jinjuku on
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2009
    I didn't bother to read it because I have NO need for tone controls.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited October 2009
    Ju Ju still stiring the pot. Haven't you covered this ad naseum before. We all are aware of your like for sound degrading eq's and tone controls.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • vc69
    vc69 Posts: 2,500
    edited October 2009
    I like room correction for HT.

    My 2ch setup is without any such nonsense as EQ or room correction.
    -Kevin
    HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
    2 Channel:
    Oppo BDP-83 SE
    Squeezebox Touch
    Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
    VTL 2.5
    McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
    B&W 801's
    Transparent IC's
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  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited October 2009
    Tone controls are evil.

    That's all.
    The nirvana inducer-
    APC H10 Power Conditioner
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited October 2009
    vc69 wrote: »
    My 2ch setup is without any such nonsense as EQ or room correction.

    Prepare to be scolded by Ju Ju for such blasphemy.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited October 2009
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Thanks to John Krutke for pointing it out:

    John K, huh?
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
    SOPA
    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited October 2009
    Screw this... bozo list!
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

    Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii

    Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999

    Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3

    HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited October 2009
    Ricardo wrote: »
    John K, huh?
    I believe it's a different John K. than the troll here.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2009
    Ricardo wrote: »
    John K, huh?

    While I would take care of obvious issues like placement and room treatment first, just want to present the side that minor EQ or tone controls are the not the spawn of Satan.

    Certain members here have their preferences that they think are gospel that everyone else has to follow. I sincerely just want to let newcommers realize that there are opposing views by people that have garnered a great amount of respect and bolster my opinion.

    I now wait for the declaration that John K somehow sucks:rolleyes:
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2009
    concealer404 wrote: »
    Screw this... bozo list!

    Fine by me;)
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2009
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Prepare to be scolded by Ju Ju for such blasphemy.

    H9

    Actually I am impressed. It's great to see someone take the time to set the room up so as no need to hit the 3rd rail of correction. My preference is never to have to EQ or touch a tone control.

    For all others that need a minor tweak: You just need to realize that they aren't evil.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2009
    By the way, I posted some ones valid opinion. It's the usual clowns now denigrating the thread into a circus. Then again you think you know more than every one else out there (add Zaph to your list).
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited October 2009
    So you don't believe tone controls or EQ's degrade sound quality?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2009
    Face wrote: »
    So you don't believe tone controls or EQ's degrade sound quality?

    I believe poorly designed ANYTHING can degrade sound quality. AAE: do I believe a clean PEQ tamping down a 60hz peak kills sound quality. No I don't.

    Do I believe that you should use EQ/Tone control instead of proper speaker placement and acoustic treatments? No.

    Placement/Room Treament/ EQ/Tone Controls are always about trade offs. You try and make the fewest trade offs for the best over all effect. This is more for the newbs that come here and get your advice. They need to know that there are individuals of great stature in this industry that don't happen to share your particular view.
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  • dudeinaroom
    dudeinaroom Posts: 3,609
    edited October 2009
    I'm putting my subscription in now!
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  • fbm211
    fbm211 Posts: 1,488
    edited October 2009
    Ill find out my answer to this today when I get the monarchy audio model 10 hooked up and compare it to the adcom 555II ive been using for years.And I do adjust the tone controls depending on the source...IE: treble and bass maxed out for the tv as source..Bypass for CDs(well recorded of course).TT gets a treble boost since its too warm sounding in bypass or flat....Flame on...
    Who knows,,maybe the monarchy will produce better detail and clarity that I wont miss the tone control option. I just may have to get a EQ for the tv output though since it sounds as if I had the tone controls at max -db........
    SDA-2BTL with custom IC
    Adcom 565 monoblocks--Monarchy Audio M-10 preamp
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited October 2009
    What's a "tone control" :confused:

    I don't have one of those on any of my gear.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • billbillw
    billbillw Posts: 6,767
    edited October 2009
    My 2-ch preamp doesn't even have tone controls...
    For rig details, see my profile. Nothing here anymore...
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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited October 2009
    Garbage in, garbage out.

    I listen to everything flat, and if there's something that i don't like (if i know it's a well-recorded album) and it bugs me through the majority of my listening, then i start researching what gear i can swap/upgrade to help it out.

    Right now, i'm very slightly midrange-shy. So, i have to figure out what to do there. I have no controls available to me to boost midrange, and i'm just fine with that, thanks.
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

    Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii

    Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999

    Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3

    HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited October 2009
    shack wrote: »
    What's a "tone control" :confused:

    I don't have one of those on any of my gear.

    Same here; I just went and looked for them, but nope. Didn't find them.
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
    SOPA
    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited October 2009
    Found this out on the internets highway, is this what Ju Ju is talking about

    A tone control circuit is an electronic circuit used to modify an audio signal before it is fed to speakers, headphones or recording devices by way of an amplifier.

    Haven't seen the likes of those in my listening room for per-near 20 years.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • SolidSqual
    SolidSqual Posts: 5,218
    edited October 2009
    I like in-room bass correction.
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited October 2009
    When I was young we had a equalizer and also used the tone controls on our Rotel receiver. As I remember those Bose 901's sounded darn good. Ha, there is a use for them.
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited October 2009
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Found this out on the internets highway, is this what Ju Ju is talking about

    A tone control circuit is an electronic circuit used to modify an audio signal before it is fed to speakers, headphones or recording devices by way of an amplifier.

    I see...............

    So if you have a crappy recording you can try to make is sound less crappy by doing something the recording engineers never did? Still a crappy recording...you just can't hear the crap so good....right?
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited October 2009
    Tone controls are not evil if you have a bypass switch to totally bypass all tone control circuitry.

    It was needed at the days of Vikings so if you have a vintage preamp, you'll likely have tone controls on your preamps. But most of the well designed Vintage preamps totally bypass the tone control circuitry unless you pushed to activate it.

    Any well designed modern preamp does not have tone control circuitry since they are not needed and won't be used anyway.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • vc69
    vc69 Posts: 2,500
    edited October 2009
    shack wrote: »
    I see...............

    So if you have a crappy recording you can try to make is sound less crappy by doing something the recording engineers never did? Still a crappy recording...you just can't hear the crap so good....right?


    Holy crap that made me laugh!
    -Kevin
    HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
    2 Channel:
    Oppo BDP-83 SE
    Squeezebox Touch
    Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
    VTL 2.5
    McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
    B&W 801's
    Transparent IC's
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2009
    shack wrote: »
    I see...............

    So if you have a crappy recording you can try to make is sound less crappy by doing something the recording engineers never did? Still a crappy recording...you just can't hear the crap so good....right?

    Unfortunately you didn't read the OP. Stoopidity is not often rewarded.

    rather, the response is smooth enough that the issues can easily be resolved with a simple adjustment

    I don't know how you got to adjustment of poor source material.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited October 2009
    shack wrote: »
    I see...............

    So if you have a crappy recording you can try to make is sound less crappy by doing something the recording engineers never did? Still a crappy recording...you just can't hear the crap so good....right?

    Yes, according to the definition you are modifying the "crap" and in some extreme instances you are modifying the crap out of the "crap".

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • SolidSqual
    SolidSqual Posts: 5,218
    edited October 2009
    So you can clean a ****?
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited October 2009
    jinjuku wrote:
    Unfortunately you didn't read the OP. Stoopidity is not often rewarded.

    rather, the response is smooth enough that the issues can easily be resolved with a simple adjustment

    I don't know how you got to adjustment of poor source material.

    Gee....is it not ovbious? We are making fun your OP.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter