To "sub" or not to "sub"?

bobt

Ok..i'm glad that you have speakers..that have no problems after 25 years.

But bottom line...the dam speaker material falls apart...peroid.

I would guess you don't push these speaker to hard..but i do.

Both my Advent speakers...the 10"s basiaclly feel apart.....

I don't understand...you think that speaker stuff can last forever?

After 20 years...gee i think they need to be replaced.......if you push them hard..they kind of shred.....don't care what power you were using......whatever

after 20 + years...this stuff becomes brittle...and need's to be replaced or reconed......

heiney9

Nope, sorry but I disagree it comes from abuse.

Advent drivers use a foam surround which rots even if the speakers sit unused. Polk's have buty rubber surround......which last forever, as well as the "doped" paper cones. The driver goes bad because you over extend the voice coil/spider or burn the voice coil with a clipped wave, ie; over driving the speaker when an amp clips.

The only issue Polk drivers have is when jarred hard by moving them from one place to another the magnets can come loose and fall off. But you have to really man handle them for that to happen.

Anyways I'm not trying to argue...........obviously you think this stuff just goes bad for no reason and in 25 years and 5 pairs of Polk's I've never had a single issue.

H9

Systems

heiney9 wrote: »

That's very true.........but I never want to assume anything.

Ok,"almost always"had a definative ring to it.;)

bobt

OK..i agree with the Advent stuff..no problem. The rubber stuff on the Polk speakers...ok..thats good...but why would you think the electronics or the wiring in the speaker can't fail?......to have 1 speaker fail....it's not the cross over network. Why would a bad amp, just do 1 speaker after 20 years?

It's real nice that you say..every thing works for ...basiclly forever... but, the electronic crap dose not.....

NJPOLKER

Bob, Please go buy a cheap sub and be happy. After all thats what you really want to do.

vijayl

U donn't really need a sub along w/ 1Cs, for ur room size. My room is 30wx35lx18h and get a pretty good Bass. I've no experience w/ Integra M504 and I strongly feel they are the weakest link. Instead of going w/ asub, I wud sell Integra M504 and get a better amp may be Carvers or tubes and u shud be set. YMMV. I love my 2ch in my sig..
ur Integra M504 is a 165w @ 8ohm and 1Cs are 6 ohm speakers and cud go lower as well. This may be a reason for one of ur drivers doing bad. u need an amp which drives 4ohms.

TouchyFeely

I agree with all these guys, you should forget about the sub and go with tweets or new mid range.

bobt

The M504 has never been a problem, and runs stable well below 4ohms.
The big problem is these speakers have been moved many times, stored in some not so great places. Plus they are going to be moved again.
To be honest i think 1 of the drivers was damaged along the way.

Once they get moved this time, i'm going to take everything apart. New tweets, all speakers mortite, and dynamat. Any damaged drivers replaced.
They also need to be spiked as these are the Studio models and the MDF base has also been broken. They have had a hard life...LOL

The X over upgrades I will do later. Just want to get them back in full working order first.

The sub thing, like i said was just an experiment. Once i get the 1C's back in working condition.....I may decide it was never worth the thought anyway. I haven't been able to play them in 5 years.....

concealer404

vijayl wrote: »

U donn't really need a sub along w/ 1Cs, for ur room size. My room is 30wx35lx18h and get a pretty good Bass. I've no experience w/ Integra M504 and I strongly feel they are the weakest link. Instead of going w/ asub, I wud sell Integra M504 and get a better amp may be Carvers or tubes and u shud be set. YMMV. I love my 2ch in my sig..
ur Integra M504 is a 165w @ 8ohm and 1Cs are 6 ohm speakers and cud go lower as well. This may be a reason for one of ur drivers doing bad. u need an amp which drives 4ohms.

The M504 is more than capable of driving 4ohms. Research before blindly following the herd.

bobt

Thanks Concealer. The Integra m504 is probably a Nich amp, that alot of people know nothing about. Back when, Onkyo ran a flagship line called Integra. There were 2 massive power amps, the 504, and the 508. They were both hugh and massively heavy. 504 rated @165watt @8 ohms, the 508 at 220watts. Back then..if you did not rate your amp at 8ohms..you were cheating. It never meant, you could not run a 4ohm load. It dose so all day long with no problems.

They were both under rated for power. My guess on the 504 is more close to 200watts, the 508..don't know..but figure 250. These amps were highly rated back in the day. Onkyo only made them for a couple of years.

This amp has never had a problem pushing the 1C's and at 6 0hms is probably pushing in excess of 250watts easy.

As i said, these speakers have been moved far to many times. 1 Driver is for sure damaged. Has nothing to do with the amp. For all i know there may be alot more damaged drivers. They sat in a storage bin for a while, so things could be rusted. They are about to take another big move, 800miles. So i hope all the equipment lasts and works.......

Once i get to my new house..I will take them completely apart. Check ever driver..everything. Any suspect driver will be replaced.

The standard answer at any driver failure is..you need a better amp... just not true.

concealer404

Yeah, it's definitely a niche thing... And honestly, i wouldn't have bothered looking into them either because you don't hear much about them, if i hadn't stumbled upon my current amp. I got it for a steal, and it blows away everything else i've ever had in my system. Maybe not necessarily in pure power, but the sound. That prompted me to start looking into others. My next amp purchase will either be more vintage Onkyo stuff, or vintage Denon. Mostly because it's a proven "works" in my setup.

bobt

Yes,,this amp is not known to most people. But the people who do..know this amp to be killer for the price.
I have read many reviews on this amp. In some cases people have bought 3K plus Mac's..only to find out the "sound" is not that much better then the M504. It has a very open airy sound...and has no coloration to the sound. Which alot of Carver stuff dose.

To me this is a better amp then most Carver stuff or the big Adcom. It just sounds better. But most people don't know this amp...and the standard answer is you need something better with more power. Sorry...not true.

heiney9

I know that amp and while you may not need something with more power. It does have it's limits and to play it at the 2:00 position will do damage. Every amp has it's limits and if you over drive a $10K amp it will still damage a driver or two.

If you like it that's all that matters, but stop tying to say becuase no one knows the amp or and it's great for it's price that it can drive any speaker to levels you seem to need w/o clipping and doing damage.

Your goal of upgrades is an excellent choice. I wish you luck and when you're done you'll be amazed how much better your 1C's will sound. Just remember to watch the volume knob after you put all that time, effort and $$$ into making your 1C's sound great.

H9

vc69

H9 has answered the question originally posed and subsequently provided excellent advice. and yet you continue to argue.

My advice is to do what ever you think is best for you. You seem to have it all quite figured out.

bobt

LOL..yes my statement of pushing the amp over 2 oclock position....is realy a rhetrorical statement. I said you would either blow your ears or the speakers...LOL

Lowell_M

.... Are these speakers we're talking about.... or spearkers? Might be a different upgrade path. :D:confused:

bobt

Basically I asked a simple question.....would a sub be good or helpfull on the 1C's......I don't know crap about subs. If cheap subs don't work..fine.

If nobody likes the 1C with a sub...Fine......

Has any body used the 1C with a sub in a 2 channel system?......Gee thats all i asked.

There is no reason to crap on the amp or anything else....period.

vijayl

LOL .. Don't apply concealer on ur amp. This amp is rated at 8ohms and if u decide to drive a 6ohm or a 4 ohm rated speaker, sure u can do that (and may be pay the price). If u measured it and seen not drag driving 1Cs, sure..

bobt

OK besides the fact that you can't even talk... A GFA 555 amp lists for 200watts@8 ohms... Now today they also list it at 4 Ohms. Back then..amps were basically listed at 8 Ohms...if you listed crap at 4 ohms you were lieing...you were cheating and junk. Why in you brain dead mind would you think this amp cannot handle a 4 Ohm load...

I give up......X amount of you people really have no clue. Amps were always rated at 8 Ohms back then..if they were not..they were junk!

heiney9

Your info about Adcom is grossly untrue. In fact back when the 555 came out a slightly modified (by Adcom) 555 ran a pair Apogee Scintilla speakers which dip to 1 ohm without difficulty. Adcom has always pointed out the low driving capability of their amps in all their literature of the day.

I have experienced the driving capability when I used to sell Adcom as a new dealer. The 535 would out play a Yamaha amp rated at 300 wpc @ 8 ohms on a well known very difficult speaker to drive ADS and the original Mirage M1. The Yammy choked at 300wpc the Adcom while getting quite warm at 60 wpc hung in there and sounded better too.

Here's the link to the 555 and Apogee's. I doubt you'll really read it though, because you are the type that will continue to spout your BS and ignore all the facts in front of you.

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/reviews/scintilla_stereophile.htm

H9

Lowell_M

Me.. I would just stick with the 1C's without a sub....

bobt

I never said the adcom was a bad amp, nor anything else. It dose run stuff at 4 ohms or below.

All i said was it was listed at this point 8 ohms..as a selling point in doing that...period.

never said it can't do less then the 8 Ohm things...that it is listed for.....
Once again dose not mean that it can do much more.

vc69

Selling point would be a 4 ohm rating.
Just about any pos will drive an 8 ohm load.
Takes a real amp to be stable at 4 ohms.

heiney9

Fine, but it was never listed in Adcom's literature as being an 8 ohm only speaker. That was my only point. And I do disagree with this statement of your's. It's simply not true.

Back then..amps were basically listed at 8 Ohms...if you listed crap at 4 ohms you were lieing...you were cheating and junk.

&

X amount of you people really have no clue. Amps were always rated at 8 Ohms back then..if they were not..they were junk!

Back in the 70's yes, this was true more often than not. But were not talking about 70's amps and receivers in this thread.

bobt

LMAO...I never said Adcom had a problem,
I don't understand your crap.
All I quoted was Adcom spec's....why would you even bother?
Just says that a listed amp at 8 ohms can handle way below that fact.
Whats your problem?

bobt

LMAO...you people are far to much. you really have know clue about anything from the 70-80's.......and forget about anything from the 60's or less.

I asked a simple question..got a a bunch of crap.

heiney9

Hmmmmm....your threads always end up like this. Where you insult, misconstrue, don't read, read into things, etc, etc and we always tell you..........don;t let the door hit you on the way out.

concealer404

vijayl wrote: »

LOL .. Don't apply concealer on ur amp. This amp is rated at 8ohms and if u decide to drive a 6ohm or a 4 ohm rated speaker, sure u can do that (and may be pay the price). If u measured it and seen not drag driving 1Cs, sure..

I'm not entirely sure what you just typed. Can you try again?

concealer404

Deleted.

bobt

No.. i don't bust people unless they have no idea of what they are talking about....then i get upset.

It was a simple question......why it went to amps i have no clue.

Why it went to this extent... i don't know.