To "sub" or not to "sub"?

bobt

I have a set of SDA 1C's. I have not been able to use them in 3 years, due to where i have been living. I'm moving into a house with a big basement .
The spearkers need at least 1 new driver, and i want to upgrade the tweets, and new poly's.

I use an Onkyo Integra M-504 to power them. Never had a problem. I also used to run a set of Advent studio monitors with them, as the Onkyo can run 2 sets of speakers. This is only a 2 channel system, I just used the Advents to fill a large room with max sound...LOL

Dose anybody use a sub with there 1C's??? for just 2 channel stuff?
I was thinking of the PSW-125

I guess the question is, dose using a sub with the SDA's...kind of screw up the overall sound?
Not that the SDA's ..can't put out bass. But as with everything else, it depends on the media..vinyl vs cd, how it was recorded..ETC:

Basically this is just a bass boost for the 1C's.....but if it's something that dose not work well with these speakers..or messes with the overall SDA sound. Then forget it.

concealer404

I don't think those would need a sub.... they've got pretty substantial bass to begin with.

The PSW-125 isn't going to do it...

bluecomet

I would not bother with a sub. The SDA 1C's have plenty of bass. Save your money to upgrade the tweets and do some mods, you will be better off.

stubby

If you are trying to fill a large area with solid bass, a sub will help a bunch. I run two in my setup. I know this sounds like overkill but I took the approach of multiple drivers doing less work. Just like the SRS systems.
I would try to find a sealed cabinet system, it will blend with your 1C's better than a ported unit. Actually, I don't have any scientific data to support that claim, but if your main speakers are sealed (they are) a sealed sub should work better.

stubby

bobt

I've had these 1C's for..twenty years. They can put out bass. If there pushed. I've played everything from Bach to rock..plus the 1812.

Problem is i don't know if a sub would work well with the 1C's...or screw up the SDA sound. I was just looking to get some more bass without killing the
1C's. It's just an ad on...to help the 1C's. I'm going to do the upgrades.
If a sub dose not work well with the 1C's..then I'm not going to do it.

Ron Temple

I use mine in a combo 5.1 rig. For HT the sub is very much desired. For music, it depends on the recording. I ususally prefer to take the sub out and use a dedicated 2 channel pre. An earlier suggestion was a sealed sub design and I agree. A sealed sub for music is a better blend. I sealed my Ultra13 for months, but stopped awhile back since I was losing too much headroom for really demanding LFE tracks. I'm considering going back, because ported with the 1Cs is just a bit too heavy. I'd also consider something quite a bit higher up the food chain than the PSW125 for the SDAs.

bobt

Well i get the idea, this is not a great thing. I have no interest in spending big bucks over the PSW-125. I was just looking to give the 1C's a little help.

If it really dosen't work with the 1C's.....fine..it was just a thought.

GTB

I have SDA 2's that I bought brand new many years ago. I've enjoyed these speakers for many years, and they've served me well.

I added a sub about six months ago and wouldn't go back. The 2's aren't real strong bass producers, but the main reason I added the sub was to get the lowest frequencies out of the SDAs. Lets them perform where they work the best, mids and up.

Bass is non-directional so the SDA effect isn't an issue; the sub improved the overall sound, IMO.

Greg

NJPOLKER

You really need a sub. Invest in tweeters, x-overs upgrade and awesome clean high current power and you'll be set for life.

danz1906

bluecomet wrote: »

I would not bother with a sub. The SDA 1C's have plenty of bass. Save your money to upgrade the tweets and do some mods, you will be better off.

Agreed, do the mods and you should be good to go.

concealer404

bobt wrote: »

Well i get the idea, this is not a great thing. I have no interest in spending big bucks over the PSW-125. I was just looking to give the 1C's a little help.

If it really dosen't work with the 1C's.....fine..it was just a thought.

A sub isn't necessarily a bad thing... but the PSW125 would be. It probably doesn't even put out the bass that your 1Cs are capable of.

For that same money, look around on the used market, you should be able to find something that WOULD help.

Are you looking just for music?

bobt

Yes this is just a 2 channel stereo system. Problem is I know nothing about subs. If you say the PSW-125 is no good. What should i look for?

I really don't want to spend more then $350 or so, as this is just an experiment. I may hate it...LOL

Like i said, this is just an add on to help out the 1C's...to fill a large room, without beating the crap out of the 1C's.....

concealer404

bobt wrote: »

Yes this is just a 2 channel stereo system. Problem is I know nothing about subs. If you say the PSW-125 is no good. What should i look for?

I really don't want to spend more then $350 or so, as this is just an experiment. I may hate it...LOL

Like i said, this is just an add on to help out the 1C's...to fill a large room, without beating the crap out of the 1C's.....

$350 should get you something that WOULD help on the used market. A lot of people here like Velodynes, and i would bet they would be of use around that price range. I don't personally have any experience with them, though, and don't know enough about that lineup to be able to recommend anything, sadly.

I DO have a Klipsch RW-10D for sale that would be within your price range, that would easily be 2-3x the sub the PSW125 would be, but i have no idea how it would sound with the 1Cs, since i haven't heard those in person, either. I don't know if it would give you a huge amount more "depth" but it should be at least equal in terms of how low it'll go to the 1Cs i would think, and it's pretty good at filling a room. But i would ask the SDA experts about what they think, i won't recommend anything that i don't know about, even if it DOES help me out.

What are you driving the 1Cs with, by the way?

<EDIT>
Duh. Onkyo M504. Nice amp. You could probably use some more power, though. That would probably be the next step to take, in my opinion.

heiney9

With proper gear and proper set-up you do not in any way shape or form need a sub. My 1C's did deeper (when the material is in the recording) than I ever thought they could.

If you do decide to get a sub an entry level sub will not sound good, because the bass coming from the 1C would be 10 times better than an inexpensive sub like the PSW125

bobt

Well once again...I get a "NO" for a sub. I never said the 1C's really needed it.
But you have to push them. I've had them since new..around 1988 maybe.

The power i have, M504 i think was underrated back then. It is a dual mono block high current amp puts out(as listed) i think 170watts per channel @8 ohms. Basically you can't go past the 2 oclock position....you would fry your ears, or melt the speaker..which ever came first...LOL

The sub is just an experiment, as the 1C's will be sitting in a 18x30 foot room, or something close to that.
I was just looking to take some of the bottom away from the 1C's. Plus fill the room.

Maybe the DSW micro pro 1000 is a getter option? Maybe a Polk sub is not the best??? As i said i know nothing about subs. Some people say there great, some say..don't use them.......

heiney9

I have 30wpc and even at very low levels I get lots of bass material. Any speaker with multiple drivers needs a "little" push to get the best out of them. I have never had an issue with bass response whether is be at lower levels or higher levels.

If you are going to experiment get a good musical sub. Otherwise it's going to be a waste of time and money, IMHO of course.

The DSW Micro Pro's are superb subs but the 1000 would be a little on the small side, IMO.

concealer404

bobt wrote: »

Well once again...I get a "NO" for a sub. I never said the 1C's really needed it.
But you have to push them. I've had them since new..around 1988 maybe.

The power i have, M504 i think was underrated back then. It is a dual mono block high current amp puts out(as listed) i think 170watts per channel @8 ohms. Basically you can't go past the 2 oclock position....you would fry your ears, or melt the speaker..which ever came first...LOL

The sub is just an experiment, as the 1C's will be sitting in a 18x30 foot room, or something close to that.
I was just looking to take some of the bottom away from the 1C's. Plus fill the room.

Maybe the DSW micro pro 1000 is a getter option? Maybe a Polk sub is not the best??? As i said i know nothing about subs. Some people say there great, some say..don't use them.......

Oh my bad... i was thinking of the wrong amp. Thought it was the early 100wpc unit. I hear you on underrated. My 5150 is rated at 150wpc, but i wouldn't be surprised if it put out more than that, either.

NJPOLKER

Do yourself a favor and forget the sub. Heiney knows the deal Take his advice and go with it. **** in **** out - my advice of course along with what I stated earlier.

heiney9

bobt wrote: »

It is a dual mono block high current amp puts out(as listed) i think 170watts per channel @8 ohms. Basically you can't go past the 2 oclock position....you would fry your ears, or melt the speaker..which ever came first...LOL

If it's dual mono do you use the AI-1 inter connect cable? Dual mono designs are almost always non-common ground which are not compatible with SDA's. This could be your issue right here. Are you sure you are quoting the right specs?

Also if you need to replace a blown driver and your poly's then you amp isn't the bee's knee's as you say, because you are under powering them and driving the amp into clipping at the 2 o'clock position. I'd study the gear you use before trying to add a sub.

H9

bobt

Well I was going to do the upgrades for the 1C's no matter what. I do have the power to push them..no problem.

But follow my thinking here.....the 1C's have 4 mid drivers 2 tweets, and the passive radiator. You DO get good bass.

BUT..if i took all the realy low freqency stuff...threw that to a sub...let the 1C's shine in what they do best. It would seem to be.....the best of both worlds.

This is all a guess, I have no clue as to what this would sound like...like i said i may hate it.
Maybe if you take the very low stuff out the passive radiator will not do it's job?.....

heiney9

bobt wrote: »

Well I was going to do the upgrades for the 1C's no matter what. I do have the power to push them..no problem.

But follow my thinking here.....the 1C's have 4 mid drivers 2 tweets, and the passive radiator. You DO get good bass.

BUT..if i took all the realy low freqency stuff...threw that to a sub...let the 1C's shine in what they do best. It would seem to be.....the best of both worlds.

This is all a guess, I have no clue as to what this would sound like...like i said i may hate it.
Maybe if you take the very low stuff out the passive radiator will not do it's job?.....

Yes, you could use a sub for all the really low stuff..........but understand the budget you have isn't going to get you a sub that will be better than the 1C's when properly set-up in a room. Bump your budget to $1-1.5K and then you're talking.

I agree with upgrading the 1C's if you do the x-over's as well you'll realize deeper more controlled bass too. So I'd do the upgrades and listen to them for awhile in your new listening space and then revisit the sub idea if you think you need more.

Have you even listened to them in your new house? If not, how do you know you want/need a sub?

H9

concealer404

heiney9 wrote: »

If it's dual mono do you use the AI-1 inter connect cable? Dual mono designs are almost always non-common ground which are not compatible with SDA's. This could be your issue right here. Are you sure you are quoting the right specs?

Also if you need to replace a blown driver and your poly's then you amp isn't the bee's knee's as you say, because you are under powering them and driving the amp into clipping at the 2 o'clock position. I'd study the gear you use before trying to add a sub.

H9

It IS a dual-mono design. 165wpc, 150wpc for an earlier one. 4ohm stable, reports of even 2ohm stable.

It's a VERY good amp. But i think you're right in that it should need the AI-1.

heiney9

It's a decent amp and being 2 ohm stable has nothing to do with the fact that if he is not using the AI-1 cable he can/has done some damage to the speakers and/or amp.

If bobt has a V-ohm meter with the amp powered off measure between the L & R speaker terminals. It should read close to "0" if it's a common ground amp. If it reads higher then I wouldn't use that amp until you make/buy an AI-1 cable. You're just asking for trouble otherwise.

Anyways...........I've given all the advice/opinion I can on this issue. You can heed it or do your own thing. Either way keep us posted.

GL

H9

concealer404

heiney9 wrote: »

It's a decent amp and being 2 ohm stable has nothing to do with the fact that if he is not using the AI-1 cable he can/has done some damage to the speakers and/or amp.

If bobt has a V-ohm meter with the amp powered off measure between the L & R speaker terminals. It should read close to "0" if it's a common ground amp. If it reads higher then I wouldn't use that amp until you make/buy an AI-1 cable. You're just asking for trouble otherwise.

Anyways...........I've given all the advice/opinion I can on this issue. You can heed it or do your own thing. Either way keep us posted.

GL

H9

Roight! Yeah i know it has nothing to do with it. Just sayin'.

Bobt: Off topic question... Do you know if that amp can be bridged?

heiney9

concealer404 wrote: »

Bobt: Off topic question... Do you know if that amp can be bridged?

Just wondering why that would be important or be an issue? .

concealer404

heiney9 wrote: »

Just wondering why that would be important or be an issue? .

It's not to this subject, which is why i said it was off-topic.

I'm just curious for my own purposes. I like the "old school" Onkyo sound a LOT, and it goes with the rest of my system very well. Just more curious for a "down the road" type thing in case i need more power than just one can give me.

I made a thread about it before, but couldn't find anyone with real world experience on them. All i got was a bunch of "if the manual doesn't say it can be, then it can't."

bobt

OK guys...lets not get nuts here. It was listed as dual mono blocks....but if it didn't have a common ground..i would have blow these speakers years ago.
Just because i say i need a driver..is junk.....these speakers are over 20 years at min. To replace 1 or 2 drivers in that time frame, is standard. At the volume i play them at....thats good. The Poly caps are junk...and i only have to replace 1.

I will check on the ground thing....but at this point..i think it's kind of mute....if it was not a common ground i would have blown this up years ago.
Keep in mind this stuff is all over 20 years old. Plus played at max volume.

No..you can not Bridge the amp....

heiney9

No that's not good. I've had many classic Polks (25yrs or so) and play them at appropriate levels within my gears safe operating range and have never tripped a poly or needed to replace blown drivers. And I listen very loud at times

The 1C's can handle close to 1000 wpc of clean power so you ARE over driving the amp, plain and simple. Drivers don;t blow for no reason. Justify it all you want but if you want to continue to listen at that level you need better, more capable gear.

Not saying what you already have isn't good............just that if you plan on listening that loud and are periodically having driver issues then you need to get more capable gear.

H9

Systems

heiney9 wrote: »

Dual mono designs are almost always non-common ground

There are a multitude of dual mono(not mono bloc's)designs that are common ground.

heiney9

GV#27 wrote: »

There are a multitude of dual mono(not mono bloc's)designs that are common ground.

That's very true.........but I never want to assume anything. That's why I suggested if he had VOM to take a measurement.

thuffman03

Unless you put a sub in your system you won't know if you like it or not. I like subs in 2 channel and HT. IMO it makes the systems sound better because you are not using your amp to produce low base wich takes lots of power.

And don't go cheep on a sub. You get what you pay for. Save up some more $$$ and buy a good used sub. I would suggest buying a Sunfire True sub.