constant non stereo imballance

Krazyz1

It would be great to petition the music industry to mandate limited to none variences of " stereo " music being off axis. Maybe I'm old school but I listen to CD's. Such a large percentage are HEAVY on one side or other. Tired of getting up and changing the line attenuate or turning up 1 side of the amp to have centered " stereo " Once in a great while you will get a CD that is perfect from start to finish , but thats a rareity. Personally I don't think it is healthy to a amp to run 2 different power levels for R or L .Even the RIAA set EQ standards for vinyl. Some CD's start out perfect , and then you suspect they took a break and partied theyre a**es off cause now it's heavy on 1 side.Anyone besides me thinks it's bullsh*t to pay what a CD does and then put up with off axis music. Ive had it so bad on some CD's my Crown is on 6 for L and 11 on R to center things up. It's BULLSH*T!!!! Anyone got suggestions to get it all straightened out with recording companies?????

sucks2beme

I disabled the balance on my preamp. Go with the flow.
It's off axis because that's what they wanted it to sound like.
Of course, I don't play that much modern stuff. But I
haven't used a balance control in years.

Krazyz1

When you take the time to triangulate your system , All speakers are within 1/8" of a inch of being equal distance to axis , youve stretched a string from axis point over top of cabinets to get firing angle perfect and your getting L and R time arival at same time because of the care of set up I expect centered axis stereo. If they are gonna record with no regard to stereo effect , I may as well just put the speakers ANYWHERE cause it sounds like its gonna sound sh*tty regardless of care and effort to do a propper set up. Can't figure any ryme or reason anyone one would want to INTENTETIONALLY make a recording heavy on one side. Never been to a concert off axis , so I would think they would want theyre recording to be a reasonable attempt to duplicate hearing them live ( on axis ). 1/8" of a inch is as close as I can get trying to move RTiA9's with carpet spikes. ( 88lbs. ) Never go with the flow. Fight for what is right and propper. If we wen't with the flow in IN we would be wearing helmets on motorcycles , but because people banded together and orginazations like A.B.A.T.E. HELMET USAGE IS volantary in IN UNLESS YOUR UNDER 18. iF people would of banded together on seat belt issue , possibility exist we wouldn't have 1 shoved up our a**!!!!

dudeinaroom

Krazyz1 wrote: »

Fight for what is right and propper. If we wen't with the flow in IN we would be wearing helmets on motorcycles , but because people banded together and orginazations like A.B.A.T.E. HELMET USAGE IS volantary in IN UNLESS YOUR UNDER 18. iF people would of banded together on seat belt issue , possibility exist we wouldn't have 1 shoved up our a**!!!!

I don't Know if it's right, but I really don't think it's proper, I guess the government found a good way for voluntary population control.

Later,
dude

F1nut

It's not the CD's, it's either a problem with your gear or your room and possibly both.

concealer404

I think it's just Indiana. We're all crazy here.

But seriously.... i'm more inclined to say room, not gear. But even in perfect conditions, i DO have recordings that exhibit this, and i even heard some of it on Nik's rig last time i was there.

Face, weren't you and i just talking about this?

vc69

F1nut wrote: »

It's not the CD's, it's either a problem with your gear or your room and possibly both.

I was thinking room too. Early reflection smears the image terribly. So do standing waves/resonant freq's. Speaker placement is so important and if you have a wall closer to one speaker than the other....It's a mess. Curtains, furniture, all these things have an affect and symmetry is important.

I have had to compromise my space due to a door, so I'm in the process of tracking down and installing some treatments.

dkg999

I just thought that was the way they wanted it to sound? I guess I just figure that the musicians all had to stand somewhere, and I kind of like hearing them in those places.

bikezappa

I notice that the balance of some, not all, recordings is not always dead on. There is a lot of selection/range for the listener to adjust with the balance. i never know if this is what the musician or the engineer wants but some times the sound is just not balanced between the left or right sound stage. I don't think it's the room or electronics because the sound stage changes form side to side depending on the recording. If the room or electronics were causing the modified sound stage then it would always be the same. It's not always the same.

If you have a remote that can adjust the balance you would be amazed at how much the sound stage can change with small change in the renote balance adjustments. It's very reveling to sit in the sweet spot and be able to adjust the balance in small steps. Having to get up, adjust the balance, then sit down and then repeat the steps just plain sucks.

By then the tune is over.

I think the only other way to adjust the balance is to get your honey to stand near the electronics and follow your instructions. Good luck with that after a few times and adjustments. The balance control on my remote is allmost as important as the volume control.

comfortablycurt

That's the way that the recording engineers wanted it to sound. Have you ever noticed how the lead vocalist isn't always dead center at a concert? Perhaps they didn't want them to be dead center.

Quit adjusting that stupid balance control and just listen to it.

As others have said, your issues are probably due to your room more than the recordings anyway.

tcrossma

comfortablycurt wrote: »

That's the way that the recording engineers wanted it to sound. Have you ever noticed how the lead vocalist isn't always dead center at a concert? Perhaps they didn't want them to be dead center.

Quit adjusting that stupid balance control and just listen to it.

As others have said, your issues are probably due to your room more than the recordings anyway.

+1

I don't have a problem with imaging at all on any of my CD's. Not all of them have the singer dead center, but all of my CD's have the sound balanced pretty well across the entire sound stage. I do not use any balance controls.

bikezappa

Every amplified concert that I have been to the lead singer is always in the center. If they walk from one side of the stage to the other the sound is always from the center. And if I have bad seats at the side it is very difficult to get any sound stage location of the singer.

There are exceptions when things break at concerts however.

I have been to one concert where the left channel went out completely. I told them at intermission and they couldn't care less. Not every one in the recording industry cares about how the sound will sound on anything but a car system or boom box.

If you never adjust the balance control how do you know it is correct?

Recording engineers and CD manufacturers make mistakes.

I'm not sure how the room or electronics can change the sound balance either from left to right depending on the recording. If the sound was always louder on the left I would agree that it is probably the room or electronics.

Anyway to each his own. Just wondering, if you never adjust the balance control why you would respond to this thread. Also I have a very smart, not stupid, balance control.

comfortablycurt

Ok...well I've been to plenty of concerts where the lead vocalist wasn't dead center. In fact, I'd have to say that most of the concerts I've ever been to didn't have the vocalist dead center. It all depends on the band, how many members they have...and a number of other factors.

If you never adjust the balance control how do you know it is correct?

If you do adjust the balance control, how do you know it's correct? How do you know that the engineers didn't want it to sound "off center".

I'm not sure how the room or electronics can change the sound balance either from left to right depending on the recording. If the sound was always louder on the left I would agree that it is probably the room or electronics.

Because different frequencies are more likely to create reflections than others, and depending on the specific information coming through the given speaker, it could cause imbalances in the mix due to reflections from the room, having more objects that deaden the sound on the other side...there are numerous possibilities.

Anyway to each his own. Just wondering, if you never adjust the balance control why you would respond to this thread. Also I have a very smart, not stupid, balance control.

Umm...I don't think this was a thread specifically about balance knobs. It was a thread about mixes sounding unbalanced. Several people have chimed in with different possibilities. I wasn't aware that there was a "balance knob users only" rule in effect in this thread. My apologies.

Also, yes, your balance knob is quite stupid. I've spoken to it personally, and it didn't seem too bright to me.

tcrossma

bikezappa wrote: »

Every amplified concert that I have been to the lead singer is always in the center. If they walk from one side of the stage to the other the sound is always from the center. And if I have bad seats at the side it is very difficult to get any sound stage location of the singer.

There are exceptions when things break at concerts however.

I have been to one concert where the left channel went out completely. I told them at intermission and they couldn't care less. Not every one in the recording industry cares about how the sound will sound on anything but a car system or boom box.

If you never adjust the balance control how do you know it is correct?

Recording engineers and CD manufacturers make mistakes.

I'm not sure how the room or electronics can change the sound balance either from left to right depending on the recording. If the sound was always louder on the left I would agree that it is probably the room or electronics.

Anyway to each his own. Just wondering, if you never adjust the balance control why you would respond to this thread. Also I have a very smart, not stupid, balance control.

Many songs I listen to have the singer dead-center. Some songs move the singer slightly off-center, but individual instruments are placed across the entire soundstage. And other songs might have the singer move across the stage as they sing.

I for one am not looking to recreate a concert -- because I personally don't like going to loud, obnoxious, concerts. To me, whether it's "correct" or not, the singer on all of my CD's and on my system have sounded believable in their placement.

And are you saying that I shouldn't participate in a thread if I don't happen to agree with it???

bikezappa

[QUOTEAlso, yes, your balance knob is quite stupid. I've spoken to it personally, and it didn't seem too bright to me.[/QUOTE]

That's because you needed to talk to the treble knob if it was to bright.

The balance control just allows me to taylor the music to my liking. Just as I like to decide my speakers, volume setting and music to my liking.

Nothing more. It's just a personnal decision to spead the sound stage the way I like it. Same with surrond sound. Don't people adjust that depending on the movie they watch?

comfortablycurt

bikezappa wrote: »

That's because you needed to talk to the treble knob if it was to bright.

The balance control just allows me to taylor the music to my liking. Just as I like to decide my speakers, volume setting and music to my liking.

Nothing more. It's just a personnal decision to spead the sound stage the way I like it. Same with surrond sound. Don't people adjust that depending on the movie they watch?

Hmm...I'm gonna need to have a talk with that treble knob sometime I guess.

If you use balance controls...that's fine. Some people like them...I despise them. My pre-amp has a balance control, and aside from making sure it worked when I bought it, it's been in the center detented position ever since.

I don't know about others, but I don't adjust my surround sound setup from movie to movie. It's calibrated with an SPL meter...and it never changes. Occasionally I'll bump the center or the sub up or down a notch...but that's kind of rare.

bikezappa

[QUOTEAnd are you saying that I shouldn't participate in a thread if I don't happen to agree with it???[/QUOTE]


Of course not, all opinions are welcome.

I was just wondering why people that never adjust the balance controls would really care about a thread topic about stereo imbalance. They don't adjust the balance because there is no need to in there opinion.

bikezappa

I also like to listen to FM and some times I go to mono to reduce the back ground hiss. In mono I find that small changes will help center the image. The centering of the image requires both left and right adjustments to the balance control.

This mono image shift could be cuased by the FM engineer. I don't know why but I'm always adjusting it because I like to center the mono sound. I don't adjust the balance however when the FM station goes to mono NPR talk, I usually just change the station.

F1nut

I recently attended an audio event. At one point some IC cable swapping took place with the MIT cables beating the others. One of their strong suits was the centering of the image. No stinkin' balance control needed.

vc69

comfortablycurt wrote: »

Hmm...I'm gonna need to have a talk with that treble knob sometime I guess.

I don't recommend it. My pre doesn't even have one.

comfortablycurt wrote: »

If you use balance controls...that's fine. Some people like them...I despise them. My pre-amp has a balance control, and aside from making sure it worked when I bought it, it's been in the center detented position ever since.

Ditto.

comfortablycurt wrote: »

I don't know about others, but I don't adjust my surround sound setup from movie to movie. It's calibrated with an SPL meter...and it never changes. Occasionally I'll bump the center or the sub up or down a notch...but that's kind of rare.

Again, ditto. In a properly calibrated HT, those are the only adjustments needed.

It's the room my friends.

Or something is busted.

jm1

Krazyz1,

From your comments about the issue you are experiencing, I wonder if your speakers are too far apart creating a weak center image. Having a weak center image would make the speakers more of a point source and be consistent with what you are describing.

Try moving the speakers closer together so the speaker to speaker distance is approx 83% of the speaker to listener position distance. This creates a solid center image. I verify all is well by playing something that has a sound moving from one side to the other side of the soundstage. The sound should have the same presence and weight throughout the transition. If the sound drops in intensity at the center or jumps from speaker to speaker, the speakers are TOO far apart. Move the speakers closer together and retest. Once the center image is properly filled, go through your speaker optimization steps once again.

Play a MONO source if you can find one. The image should be dead center and well integrated.

Also make sure your speakers are NOT behind the front plain of any items you may have between them. If they are, move the speakers forward until they clear the objects by a good margin.

Can you list some titles which highlight your issue… If I have or can borrow them, I would be interested to have a listen to see what happens in my environment.

bikezappa

jm1

I agree with your comment about spacing the speakers to far apart. I forgot that I to had that problem many years ago and adjusting the balance was very critical. Moving the speakers closer together reduced the problem.

Sometimes you need to relearn stuff again and again.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Krazyz1

OK. Speakers are spaced 10'-915/16. From axis point to speaker is 14'-53/4. I wont throw out the spacing possibility or room issue except I have CD's that play dead nuts center through whole CD. If I have a CD that is off axis , it is ALWAYS left side. I have NEVER had one heavy on the right. More food for debate.

treitz3

Swap the speaker outputs [L speaker / R speaker] on the amp. If the imbalance follows to the other speaker, you know it's upstream. If it doesn't? Well then. You have found your culprit.

madmax

I used to have this problem constantly at my old house. It doesn't happen at the new house. It had to be acoustics of the room.
madmax

jm1

What CD is always left side?

A weak center image will still give you centered sound when something that is centered is playing. If it didn’t, you would notice immediately. But when something goes off center, the image would be pulled further from the center than intended.

Note sure if you did this but when you established the distances, did you use the drivers to establish the distances? For your speakers, the lower midrange should be fine. Measure the speaker separation from driver center to driver center. For the speaker to listening distance, use the center of the midrange driver cone to the listening position.

You have a showcase. Are you running two 9’s per channel? If so, maybe disconnect a speaker and try the above tests with just the one speaker per channel. Correct me if I am wrong, but if you are using two speakers per channel, you would need to use the acoustic center of the pair for measurements; mid-point between the two speakers. You will also need to check each speaker to ensure they are BOTH the same distance from the speaker to the listening position.

Also try relocating the table/lamp and chair from between the speakers for your testing.

Hope you can get this resolved.

Face

You're kidding right?



As jm mentioned, run one pair of speakers.

Pull the single pair out from the wall.

Get rid of the EQs.

Move that chair out from between your speakers.

Experiment with positioning.

Krazyz1

Any of you married?? Have you ever heard of WAF. It's called wife aproval factor. It's generally when she wants you to buy the **** sounding amp because it matches the decore better. Un fortunantly I don't think there will be any furniture moving at OUR house. So whats the issue with 2 speakers per side. Iv'e used a laser range finder to get all distances equal , and stretched string from axis point over speaker cabs to get angle to axis right.

treitz3

treitz3 wrote: »

Swap the speaker outputs [L speaker(s) / R speaker(s)] on the amp(s). If the imbalance follows to the other speaker(s), you know it's upstream. If it doesn't? Well then. You have found your culprit.

Have you tried this?

Krazyz1

No but I need to. It USE to sound PERFECT after 2 days of set up. Then one day my wife moved the couch and thought somehow mgically putting the couch feet back in the dimple in the carpet and all would be fine . Brought new meaning to the word REALLY PI**ED OFF!!!. So now I set it up all over AGAIN!!!. nOW i AM REALLY SCREWED BECAUSE oCT. 6TH i HAVE SUGERY ON MY RIGHT SHOULDER ( TORE ROTATOR CUFF ). i AM WILLING TO SWAP OUTS AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. sTIDO NOT UNDERSTAND ISSUE OF 2 SPEAKERS PER SIDE. iT'S CALLED SOUND SATURATION.

Krazyz1

I don't get the gid rid of the EQ. Other than the Polk's thats the best part. With the SAE I can change the sound of the crash of cybals or the wail from a sax. And with the graphic I can change placement. What more could you ask for to have musiical sound as you believe they should sound.