Improvements To The VPI HW-16.5 Record Cleaning Machine

4DeckSam

DarqueKnight,

Thanks for posting this. This sheds a lot of light on "what's under there?" and how did they do it?
Now, if I could only find the spindle assembly I'd be in great shape to continue planning my RCM.

BTW, great detail of what you've done to your 16.5

Thanks,

Sam

inspiredsports

This is the first time I'd seen this thread and have to say the Dynamat Extreme, IEC power cable and audiophile grade fuse are especially nice touches Raife, but no tubes ??? :biggrin:

Cheers,
Greg


P.S.: Did the cooling fan add more db's than the Dynamat canceled out ? :eek:

DarqueKnight

4DeckSam wrote: »

Now, if I could only find the spindle assembly I'd be in great shape to continue planning my RCM.

VPI won't sell you these parts or were they too expensive from VPI?

DarqueKnight

inspiredsports wrote: »

... but no tubes ??? :biggrin:

I'll leave that mod to the tube aficionados. I'm an SS guy.

inspiredsports wrote: »

... P.S.: Did the cooling fan add more db's than the Dynamat canceled out ? :eek:

No, the fan is very quiet.

madmax

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I'll leave that mod to the tube aficionados. I'm an SS guy.

My condolences to you, get well soon.

4DeckSam

DarqueKnight wrote: »

VPI won't sell you these parts or were they too expensive from VPI?

I don't see them listed on their parts list.

DarqueKnight

Give them a call. The extra toggle switch (for the fan) wasn't listed either, but they sold me one after I called.

nspindel

Raife, thanks for yet another great thread. I've just laid hands on a turntable, so I've headed down the vinyl path. Keeping my eye on fleebay for a used 16.5 at a good price, but meanwhile I want to get started cleaning some vinyl without a vacuum for the short term. I'm loving your cleaning ritual, looking to duplicate as much of the rest of it as I can in the short term until I get the 16.5. I grabbed the carbon fiber brush and the mobile fidelity brush, and I even grabbed a cheap Shark steamer on eBay. I'm very intrigued by your home brew cleaning solution, but I'm a little confused. You're using 75% distilled water, 25% alcohol, and 4 drops of the X-114. But 4 drops per how much of the water/alcohol solution?

Can I also ask why you use two different mobile fidelity brushes?

DarqueKnight

nspindel wrote: »

You're using 75% distilled water, 25% alcohol, and 4 drops of the X-114. But 4 drops per how much of the water/alcohol solution?

My apologies for that glaring omission. The recipe was for one gallon of cleaning solution. If you make a smaller amount of solution you would adjust the X-114 according (eg. 2 drops for a 1/2 gallon or 1 drop for a quart).

nspindel wrote: »

Can I also ask why you use two different mobile fidelity brushes?

The first MoFi brush is used for scrubbing after the distilled water steam cleaning. The second MoFi brush is used for scrubbing after the application of cleaning fluid. I did not want to reuse the first MoFi brush for the cleaning fluid scrubbing because it would already be saturated with water from the steam cleaning scrubbing. This would cause the following issues:

1. Further dilution of the cleaning fluid.
2. The water in the brush would prevent the bristles from becoming completely saturated only with cleaning solution.

I prefer to start the cleaning fluid scrubbing with a completely clean and dry brush that will become soaked only with cleaning solution.

Also, if I didn't use a second brush for the cleaning solution scrubbing, I would need to add the steps of rinsing the MoFi brush after the steam cleaning scrubbing, waiting for it to dry, then using it again for the cleaning solution scrubbing.

nspindel

Thank you sir! However........... I think you need some serious economy of scale in order to make the home brew worthwhile. Looked online, and the X-114 is about $65 for 500ml. So I'm going to buy half a liter of the stuff and only use a few drops. Any other suggested uses for the X-114? Otherwise, probably cheaper to get some MFSL solution.

By the way, I can't agree with you more on the need to clean brand new records. Just got some "audiophile" grade vinyl, 180g stuff. Got the three new-release Floyd albums. Pops and clicks like crazy. Used the carbon brush and the MFSL brush (dry, obviously) and I'm still getting clicks. Brand new vinyl absolutely needs a good cleaning, no doubt about it.

DarqueKnight

nspindel wrote: »

Thank you sir! However........... I think you need some serious economy of scale in order to make the home brew worthwhile. Looked online, and the X-114 is about $65 for 500ml. So I'm going to buy half a liter of the stuff and only use a few drops. Any other suggested uses for the X-114? Otherwise, probably cheaper to get some MFSL solution.

I ordered a pint (473 ml) of X-114 from Museum Services Corporation in 2009 for $22.79 ($11.25 for the X-114 + $11.54 shipping). I checked their website and a pint of X-114 is still the same price.

The total cost for a gallon of cleaning solution was:

Gallon of distilled water: $1.00
Pint of X-114: $22.79
Quart of 99% pure Isopropyl alcohol: $12.25
Total: $36.04

It sucks that 63% of the cost of cleaning solution was for the X-114, of which I only used four drops. It sucks even more that 50% of the cost of the X-114 was for shipping.

nspindel wrote: »

Any other suggested uses for the X-114?

I don't know. I've never considered using it outside of cleaning records.

nspindel wrote: »

By the way, I can't agree with you more on the need to clean brand new records. Just got some "audiophile" grade vinyl, 180g stuff. Got the three new-release Floyd albums. Pops and clicks like crazy. Used the carbon brush and the MFSL brush (dry, obviously) and I'm still getting clicks. Brand new vinyl absolutely needs a good cleaning, no doubt about it.

Pops and clicks can also be caused by static electricity. Some pops and clicks are caused by defects or damage in the groove walls and some are caused by a speck of dirt that is embedded in the groove wall and no amount of cleaning will remove it.

nspindel

I ended up deciding against the home brew. I bought a 16.5 from elusive disc during their 10% off sale for Labor Day. For an extra $10 (well, $9 during the sale....) they throw in the MFSL deep cleaner, the MFSL record wash, MFSL brush, an extra cork platter mat, and 100 anti-static sleeves (not the MFSL ones). That deal was a no-brainier just for the brush.

I also grabbed one of the shark steamers on eBay for a song. Also got the carbon fiber brush, and several more MFSL brushes.

I have to say, I am floored by what a good cleaning can do to a record. I followed your basic procedure, inserting the two different MFSL solutions. Mount the record on the 16.5. Use the carbon fiber brush dry to remove loose dust. Apply the steam (Poland Spring distilled water), use first MFSL brush, then vacuum for 1 revolution. Then apply the deep cleaner, scrub with second MFSL brush, then vacuum for one rev. Then apply the wash, scrub with third MFSL brush, vacuum for three revs, then repeat procedure for second side.

Didn't take me long to understand why you recommend separate MFSL brushes. I even used my ptouch to make "steam'" "deep clean," and "wash" labels for the brushes!

I dont have a whole lot of old vinyl, but I do have original 1967 pressings of Sgt. Pepper and Magical Mystery Tour. Also have the whole Zeppelin catlog on vinyl. I've listened to them a couple of times since I got my turntable, but only with cleaning them dry with the carbon fiber brush. The difference after a good cleaning was just incredible. Magical Mystery Tour and Houses of the Holy just blew my mind last night.

If you are on the fence about one of these machines (they are expensive after all...) then count me as a + recommendation.

And thanks again to DK for all the superb info!

nspindel

Here's a question - how often do you clean your records like this? Do you do anything in between cleanings?

I purchased a pack of 4-mil plastic bags to put the albums in, and I am storing the vinyl in the MFSL anti static sleeves. I put the vinyl inside the 4-mil bag with the cover, but I don't put the record inside the cover. It just sits in the MFSL sleeve behind the cover, so I don't have to fight with getting it in and out, don't even need to remove the cover from the 4-mil bag. I bought adhesive labels to apply to the 4-mil bags, so I could note the date I last cleaned the record. Then I'm planning on putting a little mark on the label each time I remove the vinyl from the MFSL sleeve, figuring I'll clean every X number of uses, although not sure what X is yet.

In between cleanings, do you use the carbon fiber brush to remove loose dust?

And just to make sure I understand... You do a full steam cleaning on brand new vinyl, yes?

DarqueKnight

nspindel wrote: »

If you are on the fence about one of these machines (they are expensive after all...) then count me as a + recommendation.

RCM's are not expensive if the cost is spread over hundreds or thousands of records.

nspindel wrote: »

Here's a question - how often do you clean your records like this?

I have not had to do a second steam/vacuum cleaning of any of my records. However, I don't play my records often.

nspindel wrote: »

Do you do anything in between cleanings...do you use the carbon fiber brush to remove loose dust?

1. Handle records by fingertips on the edges or by fingertips on the label.
2. Dry brushing if needed.
3. Anti-static gun if needed.
4. Always clean the turntable platter and other turntable surfaces of dust before playing. Some dust will settle even if you have a dust cover.

nspindel wrote: »

I purchased a pack of 4-mil plastic bags to put the albums in, and I am storing the vinyl in the MFSL anti static sleeves. I put the vinyl inside the 4-mil bag with the cover, but I don't put the record inside the cover. It just sits in the MFSL sleeve behind the cover, so I don't have to fight with getting it in and out, don't even need to remove the cover from the 4-mil bag. I bought adhesive labels to apply to the 4-mil bags, so I could note the date I last cleaned the record. Then I'm planning on putting a little mark on the label each time I remove the vinyl from the MFSL sleeve, figuring I'll clean every X number of uses, although not sure what X is yet.

I keep a log book with cleaning info on each record.

nspindel wrote: »

And just to make sure I understand... You do a full steam cleaning on brand new vinyl, yes?

Yes-A full steam cleaning followed by the record cleaning machine. It is a shame that some brand new records come from the factory with gunk in the grooves...but that's how it is.

teekay0007

WOW! :eek:

I subscribed to this thread just so I have it handy to re-read, just in case I ever even think of going the vinyl route! :cheesygrin:

nspindel

Thanks for the reply Raife.

That's a good point about cost. It's an expensive outlay, but when you amortize that cost over a large collection, the price per record cleaning is not substantial. Still a lot of cash to lay out, but your point is very true. In my case, my vinyl collection is not all that large, but that doesn't make cleaning these records any less important.

I'd say so far I've cleaned about 25 records X 2 sides. Yesterday, I emptied the tank that holds the spent fluid. It was nasty looking. All that gunk used to be on my records. I was impressed.

Anti-static gun.... Very interesting.....

nspindel

teekay0007 wrote: »

WOW! :eek:

I subscribed to this thread just so I have it handy to re-read, just in case I ever even think of going the vinyl route! :cheesygrin:

Wise move. The difference in sound quality between a record before and after a good cleaning is mind-blowing. And I am 100% sold on the fact that there is no such thing as a good cleaning of a record that does not involve a vacuum.

nspindel

Zerostat vinyl anti-static pistol on the way. An anti-static pistol! Who knew? I love this place....

nspindel

Any chance you've turned up a better clamp for the vpi than the ttweights? I visited their site - agreed, very strange that they advertise this clamp as being especially for the vpi cleaners and intended to stop fluid from reaching the label, yet the clamp is smaller than the label! :rolleyes:

DarqueKnight

nspindel wrote: »

Any chance you've turned up a better clamp for the vpi than the ttweights? I visited their site - agreed, very strange that they advertise this clamp as being especially for the vpi cleaners and intended to stop fluid from reaching the label, yet the clamp is smaller than the label! :rolleyes:

Be careful what you wish for!

As can be seen from the pictures below, the end of the vacuum wand is very close to the periphery of the TT Weights clamp. If the clamp actually covered the entirety of the record label, it would butt against the vacuum wand.






So far, with careful application of cleaning fluid, I have not had a problem with wet record labels. Since the vacuum wand extends so close to the record label, any fluid that spills close to the label would be quickly sucked up.

I had some concern about the label getting wet when I was doing steam cleaning, but I have had no issues there. If problems had arose, I would have made a label covering from a rubber pad and secured it with a 1/4" bolt and washers.

Dawgfish

"I had some concern about the label getting wet when I was doing steam cleaning, but I have had no issues there. If problems had arose, I would have made a label covering from a rubber pad and secured it with a 1/4" bolt and washers."

I trick I use when I steam clean my records is to use two of those dent puller suction cups (mine are Bondo Brand) that you can buy at Advance, Autuzone, Oreilly's, etc. They are just slightly larger than the record labels and have a suction release lever on them. I put one on one side, then put the second one on the other and depress the suction lever. Presto, instant lable protectors. Since they have handles on them they offer a convient way to handle your vinyl also without touching the record. I think they go for about $4-5 apiece.

Thanks for all of the great mod. info BTW. I just purchased a VPI 16.5 so this is of particuliar interest to me.

nspindel

DK, I don't have any issues when applying fluid, my problem is that the label gets wet from the steam cleaner. What's your trick for not getting the label wet when the Shark is blasting away towards the inside of the record? I try to point it outwards from the middle towards the edge, but the label often still gets wet. But you're right, I didn't think about the wand butting up against a larger clamp.

Dawgfish

Nspindel,

Please see my tip in the thread above yours for not getting the label wet when steam cleaning. Here is a link for the dent puller: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KXA6HY/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_2?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000FW4LQC&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0ARHSAH7RA7R5Y7SGV1K. It works.

nspindel

I may do that. But if there's a technique to use to avoid the label getting wet in the first place, even better. But I do have a dent on my car that that looks perfect for!!!!!

Dawgfish

It sound's like I'm not explaining myself well. You use two dent pullers, one on each side over the labels and you put the dent pullers on before you steam clean, thus the labels do not get wet. Release suction on one of the pullers when done and they come right off and the labels are dry.

nspindel

Dawgfish, at present I'm steaming the records while they're fixed on the vpi machine. I like to apply the steam while the record is on the vpi turntable, and then just vacuum the distilled water away. That Bondo gadget doesn't look like it would work while the record is on the vpi machine.

To be honest, I haven't really found the water to damage the label at all. Usually I apply the steam, the label gets a little wet, I vacuum the water off the record, and then use a towel to dry the label while it's spinning on the vpi. I've never noticed any water marks remaining on the label after it's dried with the towel. But there's always a first time, that I'd like to avoid.

Dawgfish

Ok gotcha. You're right they wouldn't work when the records are on the VPI. I steam clean my records free from the rcm and the dent pullers work great in that application.

Something that may work while on the rcm is to get one of those teflon cutting boards and cut a circuliar piece out the size of the label using a hole cutter bit attached to a drill. After the circuliar piece is cut, drill a hole in the center the size of the rcm spindle (or just slightly smaller). Just slip over the label when steam cleaning and presto.

Jobriathboy

I'm very late to the party as far as the discussion goes about these mods, but I have a (probably very newbie-ish) question regarding the inline fuse. Is there any particular reason you chose a fast blow versus slow blow fuse? I don't know a great deal about electronics, so I'd love an explanation of the why behind this choice.

Thanks so much for sharing the details of your mod on this machine, I'm in the process of trying to replicate these mods on my own 16.5.

DarqueKnight

The original fuse was a fast blow type.

PolkieMan

Nice mods and review DarqueKnight! I got mine Friday I won in from Stereophile magazine

http://www.stereophile.com/content/vpi-hw-165-record-cleaning-machine-soundstage-direct-sweepstakes