DSL Router questions

MacLeod

Hey guys, recently built myself a nice computer and wanted to hook up the old one for the wife to use so she can check her email and Facebook and do some Excel stuff for her work. Ive got a DSL connection (6 MB) and their modem has 4 outputs on the back but theyll charge me $5 a month to hook another computer up to it so I figured Id go buy a router instead.

Normally I turn to the internet and start researching and trying to learn as much as I can. Surprisingly there isnt a whole lot of information on basic routers. There is a ton of general info on wireless routers but I dont need wireless as my wifes computer will be 6 feet and in the same room as mine. Ill just use a LAN cable for both but I cant find anything online telling me what works and what doesnt. Another snag is that you can hardly find wired routers anymore and the ones you do find actually cost MORE than a wireless router with 4 LAN ports! I dont get that.

Ive learned that G routers are slower than N routers but is that just for wireless transfer or would the transfer be slower the the LAN cables on the G as well?

Can I simply run down to Walmart and buy their $30 Belkin wireless G router and use 2 LAN cables and have no adverse effect to my dsl speed? Or would I have to get the $50 N router?

From the reviews on Newegg, I see a lot of people complaining about their cheaper routers constantly dropping the connection and such. Does that mean I need to buy a $100 router to keep that from happening all the time?

Would I just be better off paying the $5 a month and using my DSL provider's modem?

kawizx9r

Macleod, its hard to find non wireless routers out there but theyre still out there. Ive got one in the closet myself, Linksys model. But you can pick yourself up a wireless router for cheap nowadays, since most of'em act as a wired solution as well. I'm currently running a wireless Belkin, and when my wifes internal wireless crapped out she just plugged in an ethernet cord just the same as if you'd plug one in to a modem itself. I got her a wireless card so she can go back to using it all over the apartment. I'd say if you can pick one up on sale, get it because you never know when you might want to take the laptop to the bedroom, outside or something.

Btw, I've had lots of routers in the past and my favorites have always been either Linksys, Belkin or Netgear.

Also forgot to add, as far as dropping connections/etc that could be due to a firmware issue and can always be upgraded/downgraded or simply formatted for your own version for better stability.

disneyjoe7

N goes with N, so if G is what you have no need to pay for N. I'm biased some with router brands but Linksys or Cisco the same, would be my choice. And yes buy one with ports on the back also along with the wireless hub thing, it will give you the most in options down the road. If you like to see just what I got hook up to a 4 port hub, just look for my thread on Win 7 network issues.

dorourke07

Macleod, if you are going with a wired solution your speed will be based on what kind of internal card your pc has. G or N only applies to wireless transfer. If your network card is new you probably have a 1GB wire card or 100MB at worst. The router will run at its full rated speed under a wired condition. Either way is plenty of speed for email or facebook. The additional traffic does impact your total usage but I would only say it would be an issue if you where both gaming or uploading large quantities of data at the same time. I have always used linksys(cisco's personal equipment) or netgear. If you spend over $50 you should be decent, cheap routers do drop a lot. You might need to contact your provider to put the router on the network.

Fongolio

How would your DSL provider know if you have a second computer hooked to existing modem? With 4 ports I'm guessing it already is a router and probably does IP adress sharing like my DSL modem/router. They would never know if I hooked a 2nd computer up because all they see is the single IP address of the modem/router. Have you researched your modem to see if it is in fact a router as well?

Ricardo

Plenty of wired hubs out there:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ethernet+hub&x=16&y=17

mmadden28

dorourke07 wrote: »

...The router will run at its full rated speed under a wired condition. Either way is plenty of speed for email or facebook....

Actually, when wired, your router won't be a bottle neck, your router will only 'run' at whatever speed (up or down) that your ISP allows (usually based on yur subscription level). The router won't route your local network traffic (pc 1 to pc2, etc) at all unless your running multiple subnets.

Its the switch in a combination Router/Switch/Wireless Access Point that you need for local traffic-and the only advantage of having a 100Mbs or 1Gbs switch in your router is for transferring data (or streaming music) internal to your home. No matter how fast your Network cards, Wireless, etc, you will NEVER get a faster speed to the internet than what your ISP provides.

Fongolio wrote: »

How would your DSL provider know if you have a second computer hooked to existing modem? With 4 ports I'm guessing it already is a router and probably does IP adress sharing like my DSL modem/router. They would never know if I hooked a 2nd computer up because all they see is the single IP address of the modem/router. Have you researched your modem to see if it is in fact a router as well and found they could be had for cheap, esp with teh proliferation of combo router/switch/WiFi Access points?

Your ISP can see more than you think.
But actually its not based on IP address, its based on MAC address. The DSL Modem can only handle one. To handle more requires a router. The ISP probably charges a rental fee for the use of a router, although I thought that practice was stopped ages ago once people wised up to what a router was for.
Comcast even tried to make you think you really couldn't connect more than one computer. You could even try disconnecting one and connecting another only to find that the second computer would not work. When in reality what was happening was the DSL/ Cable Modem locks on to a MAC address and that is the only MAC it will talk to. Putting a router with a switch in play will allow you to add as many computers behind it as you want and with any IP scheme. And if you own the router, then the ISP doesn't have any visibility to what you have (unless you let them).
Of course hooking up a router would not seem to work either since the modem was still locked to the 1st PC's MAC addy. So many consumers would just yield and pay the cable company the extra money. The actual fix is to shut the cable modem down (remove power) for NO LESS THAN 15 minutes. Then on boot up--the first MAC it sees, it locks onto (the router's).

If your device only has one Ethernet port its likely just a modem. If it has an uplink/WAN port and 4 (usu.) additional Ethernet ports, then you have a DSL/Cable modem/router/switch combo device. So you should work fine right now. And they should not charge you extra--of course every subscriber agreement is different-but again I thought that deceptive practice had ceased long ago. But if you concerned, buy that $30 Wireless router and hook it up to the ISP provided device, and hook all your other computers to your new router (wired or wirelessly)-They will only see one MAC address.

John30_30

Ricardo wrote: »

Plenty of wired hubs out there:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ethernet+hub&x=16&y=17

Hub won't work. He needs a router because they will NAT. Then, he can have as many separate connections off that one modem as his bandwidth will allow.

Also, on that wireless router, go into the setup page and disable wireless if you're not using it. Alot of routers and the 2-wire modems that AT&T used were (in)famous for having wireless enabled and unencrypted by default.

petrym

Fongolio wrote: »

How would your DSL provider know if you have a second computer hooked to existing modem? With 4 ports I'm guessing it already is a router and probably does IP adress sharing like my DSL modem/router. They would never know if I hooked a 2nd computer up because all they see is the single IP address of the modem/router.

That's what I was going to ask you... if you hook up the second computer and it doesn't work, then you'll have to try some of the previous suggestions.

kcoc321

Pretty much cover above...and something I have experience about...;)

one bit o note, you need a router not a switch. The router is needed to generate the IP addresses for each computer.
You could buy a strickly wired one, but the G-wireless ones are about the same price.

FYI: If you have a PC recycle store around you, I picked up one for $10.
I too prefer the Linksys brand for simplicity and reliability.

Make sure you computer are both set up to get IP address automatically.

The setup is pretty self explanatory...walks you thru it.

regarding the DSL companies router, they can "see" the additional computer's IP logging on. Thats how they charge you....
When you add a router, the company only sees the IP address of the Router....hehe...I have had numerous conversations with Comcast about that...and they won't budge on that regard.

You should be good to go:D

mmadden28

kcoc321 wrote: »

The router is needed to generate the IP addresses for each computer.

The router (in the context of connecting more than one PC) is required for the NAT - Network Address Translation, where one external IP is shared amongst one or more internal IPs (usually non-public).

Assigning IPs, although usually a function of a home router, is not required. Static IPs could be used just as easily- although more of an admin headache for the uninitiated.

kcoc321 wrote: »

regarding the DSL companies router, they can "see" the additional computer's IP logging on. Thats how they charge you....
When you add a router, the company only sees the IP address of the Router....hehe...I have had numerous conversations with Comcast about that...and they won't budge on that regard.

You should be good to go:D

Not True. They don't see any IPs 'logging on'. the ISP can only see the MAC address of the outermost device connected to the cable modem (if that). At a miimum the external IP address for all traffic flowing through thier system.

A router that is used (along with a switch) to allow multiple computers to connect and share an internet connection used NAT or Network Address Translation. This means that to the outside world, only the one real external IP address is ever seen. If you ever want to know what your external IP address is, the easiest way is to go to http://whatsmyip.org. Try it. If you have multiple computers, try it from each of them--you will see the same IP address. The only time this IP address will change is either whe your modem has been off for an exteded period of time (missed the lease renewal), or was done on a whim by the ISP (its there perogative unless you paid for a static IP). This is not to say that certain websites or applications can't report your non-public non routeable internal IPs to an external site, but they are useless.

Comcast can't use internal IPs to bill you. For all they know you could be setup for DHCP and get a new IP each time you connect. Thats simply BOGUS.

The only (legitimate) way I can think of for an ISP to do something like this is if your ISP requires an account for you to login to to access the internet at all. This is typically found with PPoE. Verizon usually requires this for DSL. And they require you to download and install software on your system to support it too. And if you don't know any better you might have 3 computers , each with that PPoE support software installed and separately logging in. But most routers today can do the PPoE authentication for you-once-for the whole network, thus no individual 'logging in' and no tracking of individual systems in your home.

Now this is not to say that the ISP can't do some fancy extraction from the packet headers and determine that you might have more than one system, but I find it unlikely.

Check your subscriber agreement to know what your rights are.

kcoc321

mmadden28 wrote: »

Assigning IPs, although usually a function of a home router, is not required. Static IPs could be used just as easily- although more of an admin headache for the uninitiated.

Well with Comcast anyway, they said we had to have our own router to connect multiple computers through one modem, even if it is the model withe the built in router. They said I would have to pay to have an addition connection, with a separate account, if not using a router.
I was trying ti connect a Netflicks Internet Movie box and it would have beeb alot easier since the Modum with router was right there, ...but no...they wouldn't allow it........altough they will use it for a 'second line' to use for their VoIP phone service....go figure...

Looks like he should have everything he needs to know.

Kex

This seems totally wierd. I have been using DSL for years, and have never, not ever, had to pay extra for any additional computers. In fact, I add the MAC address of any guests that come to visit as well, never mind the three computers we have going here all the time. I have a wireless modem/router (that I currently use), a wired modem/router (that I don't currently use), and a wireless router without a modem (that I don't currently use). I've used Verizon, Quest and AT&T. Who is the ISP trying to charge you extra for extra computers on your DSL line? Are you sure they're not trying to bill you for using to their Anti Virus software on additional units, or something?!

I agree with mmadden28 and others: It's time to check your agreement and figure this one out. It just seems totally wierd to me, especially if you're already paying for 6MB service.

kcoc321

Sorry, I must not have been clear and you misunderstood me.

I do not pay extra to use multiple computers on MY OWN personal router.
We have 6 running on 2 routers.

However to use the ISP Company's Integrated Router, (like MacLeod is asking about) they want to charge extra, at least Comcast did.

Does that make more sense?

Sherardp

DSL modem to Wireless Router, N is the latest and greatest and will support G. You can do this numerous ways, DSL modem to switch to wireless router. That should get you more than enough lan drops to include AV gear.

wutadumsn23

Wow, my brain hurts now.

nguyendot

mmadden28 wrote: »

Actually, when wired, your router won't be a bottle neck, your router will only 'run' at whatever speed (up or down) that your ISP allows (usually based on yur subscription level). The router won't route your local network traffic (pc 1 to pc2, etc) at all unless your running multiple subnets.

Its the switch in a combination Router/Switch/Wireless Access Point that you need for local traffic-and the only advantage of having a 100Mbs or 1Gbs switch in your router is for transferring data (or streaming music) internal to your home. No matter how fast your Network cards, Wireless, etc, you will NEVER get a faster speed to the internet than what your ISP provides.



Your ISP can see more than you think.
But actually its not based on IP address, its based on MAC address. The DSL Modem can only handle one. To handle more requires a router. The ISP probably charges a rental fee for the use of a router, although I thought that practice was stopped ages ago once people wised up to what a router was for.
Comcast even tried to make you think you really couldn't connect more than one computer. You could even try disconnecting one and connecting another only to find that the second computer would not work. When in reality what was happening was the DSL/ Cable Modem locks on to a MAC address and that is the only MAC it will talk to. Putting a router with a switch in play will allow you to add as many computers behind it as you want and with any IP scheme. And if you own the router, then the ISP doesn't have any visibility to what you have (unless you let them).
Of course hooking up a router would not seem to work either since the modem was still locked to the 1st PC's MAC addy. So many consumers would just yield and pay the cable company the extra money. The actual fix is to shut the cable modem down (remove power) for NO LESS THAN 15 minutes. Then on boot up--the first MAC it sees, it locks onto (the router's).

If your device only has one Ethernet port its likely just a modem. If it has an uplink/WAN port and 4 (usu.) additional Ethernet ports, then you have a DSL/Cable modem/router/switch combo device. So you should work fine right now. And they should not charge you extra--of course every subscriber agreement is different-but again I thought that deceptive practice had ceased long ago. But if you concerned, buy that $30 Wireless router and hook it up to the ISP provided device, and hook all your other computers to your new router (wired or wirelessly)-They will only see one MAC address.

You don't even have to wait 15 minutes. Just power it off, and back on, and you're good (unless it's an ARRIS gateway - they have a UPS built in).

Also - routers have always had the feature to spoof MAC addresses. Even if the modem was locked permanently into one IP address you could just spoof it with the router and it would still work.

You guys are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. Buy a router, any router. Hook it up and set it up. It will work, and you won't get charged. To the ISP you only have one device actually feeding data - the router. Behind that, any ISP has zero authority on what you hook it to. This has been fought and many ISPs have failed in this fight.

jimmydep

This question is on a similar subject and it seems the OP has his answer, so I don't think this is threadjacking................

I have a wireless router with a 6 port hub connecting a wired network in my house.

I'd like to use another wireless router to make an access point so I'll have better signal strength in the remote areas of the house for my laptop.
I have a spare hardwire into the network I'd like to use.

Can I use a spare wireless router I have or do I need to purchase a wireless access point to do the job?

Is there any special setup required to make the router work?


Thanks

Jimmy D

mmadden28

nguyendot wrote: »

You don't even have to wait 15 minutes. Just power it off, and back on, and you're good (unless it's an ARRIS gateway - they have a UPS built in).

On the Modems that Comcast provides in PA, you have to wait about 10 minutes-this is a fact. Turning it off and on DOES NOT release the lock on the MAC address. If you call Comcast Customer Service and tell them you got a new computer and its nto working, guess what they will tell you to do.

I always say 15 minutes because it seems that everybody that has tried it only usually waits about 9, then they get impatient and turn it on. Then they complain that it didn't work. I tell them again to wait a full 15, and really wait, and guess what-wow like magic. So far I have only seen this on the Cable modems from Comcast--I'm sure though that its specific to the modem vendor not the ISP i this case. Verizon or other DSL providers modem's I've dealt with do not have the MAC lock.

Again there is no IP address locking, or should I say that IP address spoofing is not required-if you need to spoof your IP address you likely up to no good.

ISPs will either dynamically assign you (your PC or router) an IP from a bank of IP addresses or, less often-and usually for an extra fee, they will assign a static IP. But that really doesn't have anything to do with the ability to use multiple PCs behind a router.
Some ISPs will even issue you multiple external IPs if you so chose to use them. Usually this is reserved for small businesses because of the need to host email and web servers with unique external IPs. There is no real need for that on home networks (and is usually against most user agreements anyway- to host servers and such).

nguyendot wrote: »

Also - routers have always had the feature to spoof MAC addresses. Even if the modem was locked permanently into one IP address you could just spoof it with the router and it would still work.

You can change your MAC address on your computer too. Its not that difficult, just not the right way to go. Yes you could change the MAC of PC2 to be the same as PC1 and it will probably work, but then you could never have PC1 and PC2 on the same network--too much of a headache. In the same vein(?), changing the MAC of the router to achieve the same goal is workable, but again fruitless, when all you have to do is power cycle for 15 minutes at the most.

I have never seen, nor would I ever expect an ISP to ever issue a modem that creates a permanent lock. The ISPs are not blind. They do understand that people will buy wireless routers eventually, they also understand that people upgrade their computers or get new NICs as well (which will result in a different MAC address). It would be far too much of an administrative nightmare for them to have to send a new modem out everytime a change occured.

Agreed--adding a router is the easy and more secure fix-since your adding a basic firewall into the mix too.

mmadden28

jimmydep wrote: »

This question is on a similar subject and it seems the OP has his answer, so I don't think this is threadjacking................

I have a wireless router with a 6 port hub connecting a wired network in my house.

I'd like to use another wireless router to make an access point so I'll have better signal strength in the remote areas of the house for my laptop.
I have a spare hardwire into the network I'd like to use.

Can I use a spare wireless router I have or do I need to purchase a wireless access point to do the job?

Is there any special setup required to make the router work?


Thanks

Jimmy D

Yes you can use multiple WiFi routers or access points. As a matter of fact that is how its done in businesses or campus's(?) or any larger coverage area. But some of the capabilities may be determined or limited by the specific model WiFi access point that you have-and depending on the mode, yuo can degrade your overall WiFi throughput.

You can bridge it or set it up to hand off signals to the stronger AP (much like cell towers and cell calls do)--Essentially (and in a very basic nutshell) each AP while on the same SSID, gets its own channel. When your laptop sees the two (same SSID) networks and the signal is weak on one and strong on the other it will switch over seamlessly.

I haven't played around with that too much at home-I usually deal with the more commercial wifi access points which are designed for that ability. I would suggest starting at the vendor's website for information on how to do that.
Right now I have two active APs running now- but separate-not bridged or anything.) The Verizon provided FiOS router and my own. I did not want to expose my internal network to Verizon, and I already have all my port forwarding and firewall rules setup. When I have guests, I have them use the Verizon AP, then I don't have to give out my SSID or passcodes, and they don't have visibility into my home systems. Just a little extra security

So you could either set it up in infrastructure mode, or bridge them, or if you don't mind switching wifi manually, set each up separately (but on different non adjacent channels.)

KrazyMofo24

The bridging and roaming works with access points. However I don't think you have those features when you take a wireless router, and just turn off the DHCP. It may help extend the signal, give more coverage. However the roaming I believe is strictly a feature with access points.

disneyjoe7

Talking about ISP charging for multiple computers connected is that really true?

My DSL modem now states 2 IP address now.

Kex

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Talking about ISP charging for multiple computers connected is that really true?

My DSL modem now states 2 IP address now.

I've never heard of it where DSL is concerned. The modems I have used from Verizon and Quest both had integrated routers and wireless, and all I had to do to use another computer was add the MAC address to the "allowed" list (for wireless connectivity), since I use MAC filtering; or plug in another ethernet cable (for hard wired connectivity). I've never heard of having to pay $5 extra for this, and I've frequently had four computers connected at the same time, when I was with Verizon, or when I use Quest and AT&T currently (different locations). Of course, nothing would surprise me with ISP's.

In any case, adding your own, external wireless router, is painless in my experience ... so if that's all it takes to get around it ... just make sure you change the user name and password from the default, which is probably "admin" and "password" or "admin"! MAC filtering is a bit tedious, but it seems like a worthwhile precaution IMO, and you only have to add any extra MAC addresses one time.

John30_30

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Talking about ISP charging for multiple computers connected is that really true?

My DSL modem now states 2 IP address now.

Yes, if they are "Live", rather than internal addresses.
Internal addresses issued by a home router will be almost always in the 192.168.****.**** ranges, but can also be in the 10.****.****.**** or 172.16-31.****.****-

Oh hell, here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_address_translation

KrazyMofo24

On being charged for having more than one device connected I'm assuming that only applies to STATIC IP. You only get one public ip address, and its dynamic, the only way to get more than one public ip the ISP will usually assign you a block of public ips which cost more, but will never change. Or maybe this ISP only gives out a modem, and if you want to rent one of their routers you can pay $5/month.

disneyjoe7

Ok I only have a one Public IP address. The other ones are just for internal.


I had a equipment router class last week with a 10.X.X.X address, you know that was serious.

Marty913

I don't think this is thread-jacking since it looks like a router is going be purchased.

Both Office Depot and OfficeMax are selling the D-Link "N" router for $30 this week. I personally prefer Belkin but D-Link works fine and that's a great price for an "N" router.

MacLeod

Im not sure what they do or how they do it but when I built my new computer and tried to hook it up to the internet thru my current DSL modem it wouldnt work. I had to call them and give them the MAC address of my new network card. Likewise when I tried to hook the old computer up to one of the 4 jacks on the back of the modem, it wouldnt work. When I called in they said theyd need the MAC address for each computer/device signing in to their network and that an extra one would be $5/month. They were the ones that actually recommended I get the router.

After reading all this I decided on the $40 Netgear G wireless router. I hooked it up, called my internet provider and gave them the MAC address on the bottom of the router and it works like a charm. Both computers are running fine and there was no loss of speed. I was getting 5 MB on internet speed tests before and Im still at 5 so all is well. Now my wife has her own computer and I dont have to worry about her stumbling across my **** collection.

Thanks for the help guys! Much appreciated.

Kex

MacLeod wrote: »

... I had to call them and give them the MAC address of my new network card. Likewise when I tried to hook the old computer up to one of the 4 jacks on the back of the modem, it wouldnt work. When I called in they said theyd need the MAC address for each computer/device signing in to their network and that an extra one would be $5/month. They were the ones that actually recommended I get the router. ...

What a cumbersome system, IMO, charging by MAC address! I'm glad I don't have to live with that and I'm very glad you got it all worked out!

At least they didn't just tell you to pay the extra, and neglect to mention that you could avoid it by purchasing a router of your own. Good for you, but you know, your wife is still going to find that **** collection some day ... it's one of them Murphy's Law thingys!

unclepauly

I personally think that another modem for $5 is better than a router. Routers introduce more latency and just cause probs with certain connections. Simple is best in this case. If you do need a router though this one is a very good deal considering you can put a new firmware on it (tomato or dd wrt) to give it the features of a router 10x it's price.

disneyjoe7

Not recommended with the OEM software?


What is that all about? I know DD-WRT is sweet but the OEM software that bad?