Why not much SACD/DVD-Audio?

Serendipity

I was wondering why more people don't listen to SACD/DVD-Audio; I listen to DVD-Audio frequently and right now I'm listening to it and it sounds great!

Is there a specific reason why the industry decided to abandon the format(s)? They could have marketed the formats better and made it more geared towards the public.

Just wondering...

krankwald

appadv wrote: »

I was wondering why more people don't listen to SACD/DVD-Audio; I listen to DVD-Audio frequently and right now I'm listening to it and it sounds great!

Is there a specific reason why the industry decided to abandon the format(s)? They could have marketed the formats better and made it more geared towards the public.

Just wondering...

I agree - a good SACD sounds fantastic. I only have a few titles, but they really are some of my favorite recordings.

Why didn't the formats attain more widespread adoption? In my opinion, the move towards lower fidelity sources such as MP3's made the promise of SACD / DVD-A irrelevant to many music fans - sound quality simply was / is no longer a priority of many listeners. In addition, the shift to CD's in the late 80's and early 90's led many people to re-purchase a lot of titles they already had on vinyl; I don't think people were willing to go through this again.

I'd still love to see SACD / DVD-A continue as a niche format for jazz and classical.

Just my opinion...

obieone

JMO, but I think it has a lot to do with convenience, and the fact that a majority of the younger listeners(no offense appadv) like rap music.
I'd love to see more main stream, and even hard rock, metal bands embrace this format.
Rush, Queen, System of a Down, Tool, Evanescence, etc. There are plenty of bands with a clean sound that would be even better on SACD.

nduitch

Same thing with Mini-Disc. It was a great idea, small, easy storage, un-scratchable, except mp3's came out right around the same time. My Sony portable minidisc player is still a great peice of equipment after 10 years. It has a mic input which has allowed me to make some pretty decent recordings.

snow

Greed. Concerns about protecting the music from bootleg versions competing formats. Eveyone loses :mad:



REGARDS SNOW

mmadden28

SACD isn't dead.....yet. SACD players are still being marketed. Oppo's newest player touts it. And SACDs are still being released.

danger boy

appadv wrote: »

I was wondering why more people don't listen to SACD/DVD-Audio; I listen to DVD-Audio frequently and right now I'm listening to it and it sounds great!

Is there a specific reason why the industry decided to abandon the format(s)? They could have marketed the formats better and made it more geared towards the public.

Just wondering...

oh ****.. another dead horse debate. umm. once and for all. both formats were not heavily promoted in their early days... and consumers HAD to buy a different player to play both formats. consumers turned their noses and within a couple years.. both formats started to die, quickly. both formats like HD DVD vs Blu Ray were excellent..

DVD-Audio and SACD each had their fanboys.. both sounded great.. DVD-audio lost out to SACD.. but not by much.

bottom line.. as i said earlier. consumers didn't like that you essentailly could not play these discs in your car or at home without a player that cost extra money. so for the most part the formats almost dried up and that's where we're at. Keep in mind today there are several Oppo and other multi format players.. back 10 yrs or so ago.. there were not.. you had Sony with SACD and Pioneer, Marantz and a few other's with DVD-Audio.. very few players in the early days could play both formats.. so if you liked both formats.. you were talking big bucks for two format players. respectively.

both format discs are still available in droves if you like to buy some.

I ventured down that path for a couple years. and found that the quality of discs was all over the place..and in some instances cost nearly twice what a CD cost.

F1nut

mmadden28 wrote: »

SACD isn't dead.....yet. SACD players are still being marketed. Oppo's newest player touts it. And SACDs are still being released.

All true and just about every SACD is released as a hybrid meaning that the Redbook layer can be played in any CDP, house or car.

danger boy

F1nut wrote: »

All true and just about every SACD is released as a hybrid meaning that the Redbook layer can be played in any CDP, house or car.

This is true Jesse.. at first they were not nearly all hybrid... DVD-Audio most times contained a DVD playable layer for 5.1 sound.. but it was not hi rez... so it only sounded so so.

I found that i didn't like that many titles that I liked on either format.. maybe that's changed by now.

cfrizz

It's a combo of all the above. Most people can't hear/don't care about the difference in the sound. Couple that with in the beginning needing to buy a new machine, incompatibility, with one another & the existing technology, increased prices for the discs led to a disaster.

These dumb companies keep making the same marketing mistake over & over again. I sat out on a dvd player until it could play all formats. I have done the same with the HD players. I'm not interested in continuously buying the same movies over and over again just in different formats. If I ever do get a HD player I won't be getting the same movies that I already have on std format.

Eventually non-audiophile people wise up & just tell these companies to go take a flying leap. Hence the failure of DVD-A/SACD

rubin

danger boy wrote: »

oh ****.. another dead horse debate. umm. once and for all. both formats were not heavily promoted in their early days... and consumers HAD to buy a different player to play both formats. consumers turned their noses and within a couple years.. both formats started to die, quickly. both formats like HD DVD vs Blu Ray were excellent..

DVD-Audio and SACD each had their fanboys.. both sounded great.. DVD-audio lost out to SACD.. but not by much.

bottom line.. as i said earlier. consumers didn't like that you essentailly could not play these discs in your car or at home without a player that cost extra money. so for the most part the formats almost dried up and that's where we're at. Keep in mind today there are several Oppo and other multi format players.. back 10 yrs or so ago.. there were not.. you had Sony with SACD and Pioneer, Marantz and a few other's with DVD-Audio.. very few players in the early days could play both formats.. so if you liked both formats.. you were talking big bucks for two format players. respectively.

both format discs are still available in droves if you like to buy some.

I ventured down that path for a couple years. and found that the quality of discs was all over the place..and in some instances cost nearly twice what a CD cost.

hear,hear......I'm not about to go out and duplicate my redbook cd collection.

Erik Tracy

I listen to NPR in my truck while driving about and they have a segmentt for BBC America and on this particular segment they were talking about the demise of the 'album'.

Gone are the days of sitting in a semi-lit room with an album playing, reading liner notes, gazing at cover art, and pondering the philosophical meaning and messages of the concept album.

Two things were noted that contributed to the downfall of the album - the price (mid 90 sales figure quoted was ~$20USD) and when the recording industry 'opened' the album up to sell individual songs.

Nowadays, the trend is to buy and download just one, maybe two songs that get the hot media exposure and ignore the rest of the 'album' - too expensive.

I guess I'm 'old school' - I like the whole collection and to hold in my hand the package as that is part of the experience.

Maybe all devices will become wireless and media will just be downloads....

madmax

appadv wrote: »

I was wondering why more people don't listen to SACD/DVD-Audio.

Because vinyl is kicking its a$$.

cfrizz

It's not just a matter of too expensive, it's also a BIG matter of with the exception of one or 2 songs being good the rest suck & basically sound just like the other 2 songs. They just changed the words & tempo a little.

Life is simply a lot different now then it was then. The pace is far faster, there is too much that needs to get done to sit around for a few hours contemplating the meaning of an album.

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I listen to NPR in my truck while driving about and they have a segmentt for BBC America and on this particular segment they were talking about the demise of the 'album'.

Gone are the days of sitting in a semi-lit room with an album playing, reading liner notes, gazing at cover art, and pondering the philosophical meaning and messages of the concept album.

Two things were noted that contributed to the downfall of the album - the price (mid 90 sales figure quoted was ~$20USD) and when the recording industry 'opened' the album up to sell individual songs.

Nowadays, the trend is to buy and download just one, maybe two songs that get the hot media exposure and ignore the rest of the 'album' - too expensive.

I guess I'm 'old school' - I like the whole collection and to hold in my hand the package as that is part of the experience.

Maybe all devices will become wireless and media will just be downloads....

F1nut

I like to contemplate my navel.

madmax

cfrizz wrote: »

Life is simply a lot different now then it was then. The pace is far faster, there is too much that needs to get done to sit around for a few hours contemplating the meaning of an album.

Someone needs to re-evaluate the importance of the musical experience.
madmax

BlueFox

cfrizz wrote: »

If I ever do get a HD player I won't be getting the same movies that I already have on std format.

That is what I thought. However, when I bought my Oppo BD83 Bluray player I also bought a copy of Terminator 3 in Bluray. T3 is my referance DVD, so if there was going to be a differance between 1080i upconverted DVD, and Bluray, I would know it since I have every T3 scene and sound memorized. Anyway, it was so much better in sight and sound I felt as if I was watching a different movie. So, while I had no plans to replace my DVDs with Bluray, I have ordered the Matrix Trilogy in BR, and I suspect there will be more.

The same principle applies to SACD. If you like it on CD, you should really like it on SACD, assuming it was properly recorded. However, now that I have a fantastic DAC (Bryston BDA-1) I am really impressed how good a "regular" CD can sound.

Danny Tse

appadv wrote: »

I was wondering why more people don't listen to SACD/DVD-Audio; I listen to DVD-Audio frequently and right now I'm listening to it and it sounds great!

Is there a specific reason why the industry decided to abandon the format(s)? They could have marketed the formats better and made it more geared towards the public.

Just wondering...

Unfortunately, SACD/DVD-A were introduced at the time when downloading was reaching the masses. Mass market consumers were lured by the convenience factor (and I am sure the lure of free downloads, be it legal or otherwise). After the downloading was becoming mainstream came another blow by the introduction of iTunes and the iPod. By that time, even the regular CD was suffering....

Sure, there were blunders in marketing (the format war between SACD and DVD-A) and product introductions (single-layer SACDs, for example). In the US, both Warner Bros. and EMI never really got into either formats that much. Both Sony and Universal Music did what they can against a paradigm shift in how music was being purchased. It was just the wrong time and place for both hi-rez formats. Those who care about the quality of sound reproduction will always be tiny in numbers compared to those who want convenience.

Still, both hi-rez formats are still with us. Between the two, SACD is obviously doing better as it celebrates its 10th birthday this coming September with over 6,000 titles released worldwide. There are still many SACD titles waiting to be released (such as the October '09 release of the Nat "King" Cole SACDs by Steve Hoffman and the next MoFi SACD by The Band). And I believe DVD-A will get another exposure to music fans with the King Crimson DVD-A's.

Kex

Justifiably so or not: I blame it all on effin' Sony! They just love to invent proprietary formats. They lost with Betamax, they won with Blu Ray, SACD and memory sticks are somewhere in between ...

SACD and DVD-A both seem to have been intended for the critical listener, but let's face it: how many households have a decent system for "critical" or careful listening, and how many of those have "decent" or attentive listening habits (rather than music as background noise)? For me, listening to music is as involved an experience as reading a good book, probably more so than watching most movies, and certainly a lot more so than watching television. It requires focus and attention to be enjoyed properly. For many others, listening to music is just to drown out the silence, much like elevator tunes in a shopping mall. That level of listening, just like watching television, doesn't require SACD or DVD-A.

danz1906

Kex wrote: »

Justifiably so or not: I blame it all on effin' Sony! They just love to invent proprietary formats. They lost with Betamax, they won with Blu Ray, SACD and memory sticks are somewhere in between ...

SACD and DVD-A both seem to have been intended for the critical listener, but let's face it: how many households have a decent system for "critical" or careful listening, and how many of those have "decent" or attentive listening habits (rather than music as background noise)? For me, listening to music is as involved an experience as reading a good book, probably more so than watching most movies, and certainly a lot more so than watching television. It requires focus and attention to be enjoyed properly. For many others, listening to music is just to drown out the silence, much like elevator tunes in a shopping mall. That level of listening, just like watching television, doesn't require SACD or DVD-A.

Well said I agree 100%.

krankwald

Kex wrote: »

Justifiably so or not: I blame it all on effin' Sony! They just love to invent proprietary formats. They lost with Betamax, they won with Blu Ray, SACD and memory sticks are somewhere in between ...

SACD and DVD-A both seem to have been intended for the critical listener, but let's face it: how many households have a decent system for "critical" or careful listening, and how many of those have "decent" or attentive listening habits (rather than music as background noise)? For me, listening to music is as involved an experience as reading a good book, probably more so than watching most movies, and certainly a lot more so than watching television. It requires focus and attention to be enjoyed properly. For many others, listening to music is just to drown out the silence, much like elevator tunes in a shopping mall. That level of listening, just like watching television, doesn't require SACD or DVD-A.

This is right on the money. I wonder if the number of "critical" listeners has gone down over the past 20 years or so?

F1nut

It is Sony's fault. If Sony had stuck to their guns and did what they said they were going to do, release their entire catalog on hybrid SACD with no more Redbook only releases, SACD would have been a smashing success.

Up yours Sony! :mad:

obieone

F1nut wrote: »

It is Sony's fault. If Sony had stuck to their guns and did what they said they were going to do, release their entire catalog on hybrid SACD with no more Redbook only releases, SACD would have been a smashing success.

Up yours Sony! :mad:

AMEN! My sentiments exactly!:mad:

shack

As much as I enjoy SACD (and I have a pretty nice collection) the fault lies with the consumer. Sony could have made every disc they produced a SACD and 99% of the buying public could care less and simply will not support the medium. The 1% of those that care are the ones buying SACD now. The market simply wasn't viable enough to make it mainstream. I at least hope it will continue as a niche product.

SolidSqual

Forget about SACD. At this point, I just want everything available in lossless or AIFF and available for download. Like it or not, this is where the future is going, and I am preparing myself for it.

reeltrouble1

usb sound sucks. of course with the right gear founded in the lower resolution, Ice and usb are made for each other, just not my bag. I would rather listen to hi-fi.


I contemplate many things, my world moves at my pace, SACD is the best we have right now for digital media, the format is secure, despite Al proclaiming it dead about four years ago. I have somewhere around 200 discs now which is more than enough, of course I would love to see some Eagles, Kansas, etc come on SACD. The thing is you need really good music for SACD to shine, I suppose if today's mass music sounds good to you well, no problem, but for me the music just isn't there for todays mass market artists and I could care less if it were on SACD.

RT1

SolidSqual

Ouch, I'm actually using a digital coax, but have heard several excellent USB DACs. As far as D-Class goes, frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps you've just had some bad experiences, come over and listen to my system. I'll show you how it's done right in all its Hi-Rez glory.

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

usb sound sucks. of course with the right gear founded in the lower resolution, Ice and usb are made for each other, just not my bag. I would rather listen to hi-fi.


I contemplate many things, my world moves at my pace, SACD is the best we have right now for digital media, the format is secure, despite Al proclaiming it dead about four years ago. I have somewhere around 200 discs now which is more than enough, of course I would love to see some Eagles, Kansas, etc come on SACD. The thing is you need really good music for SACD to shine, I suppose if today's mass music sounds good to you well, no problem, but for me the music just isn't there for todays mass market artists and I could care less if it were on SACD.

RT1

SolidSqual

Reeltrouble has inspired me to look at some SACD players again to see how they compare to the Hi-Rez files I'm outputting from my DAC. Of the manufacturers I checked out, Sony was the first naturally.

Check out this link: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665537319

The player is backordered until 8/11/2009. Looks like there are people out there looking to keep SACD alive.

madmax

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

The thing is you need really good music for SACD to shine, I suppose if today's mass music sounds good to you well, no problem, but for me the music just isn't there for todays mass market artists and I could care less if it were on SACD.

RT1

Good music is out there, unfortunately most artists don't give a crap about fidelity. So long as the jist of it makes it on the disc and it is mixed as hot as it can be that is all that matters. Old analog masters from the 40's, 50's and 60's and 70's sound better than most new digital recordings.
madmax

BlueFox

SolidSqual wrote: »

Reeltrouble has inspired me to look at some SACD players again to see how they compare to the Hi-Rez files I'm outputting from my DAC. Of the manufacturers I checked out, Sony was the first naturally.

Check out this link: http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665537319

The player is backordered until 8/11/2009. Looks like there are people out there looking to keep SACD alive.

This was released in Oct/Nov 2008 for $1500, and I purchased mine as soon as I found it online for $1050, which I considered a reasonable price. My main reason for purchase was I wanted an SACD player for my 2 channel system, and this fit the bill.

It only supports 2 channel with analog, and it provides XLR outputs, along with RCA, for analog. You need to use HDMI for multichannel. All in all it is a great player, but I primarily use it to audition CDs and Hybrids to determine if they are good enough to go onto the music server. The music server is my primary music source, and the CD player is mostly a tool to support the server.

reeltrouble1

The problem is not with usb DAC's, they are fine, at least the DAC section, it the actual USB delivery system, it is not yet up hi-fi standards, firewire is a much better option but very little home hi-fi gear released with firewire connectivity. Maybe someday USB SQ will get to hi-fi but not today, so if SS is using coax then I would say this is a good thing. As far as Ice well I like it with my rum.....anyway I would love to hear SS gear and would welcome a stop over to hear a hi-fi tube rig, Troy will have his quad Rig with the modded Heathkits at the fest, I think he still uses a nice Melos pre, that will be a nice tube rig to get your ears on.

I do now see machines at market which can squeeze everything out of redbook and compare favorably to SACD, they are very expensive though, I hope and suspect some trickle down will occur.

Yes, the disc mastering is crucial, guys like Hoffman who have the knowledge, care about SQ and have the equipment to do it are the hope, I think though SACD is secure as a format despite Danger Boy declaring it dead about four years ago......

RT1