Tube amp vs Solid State ouputs?

245

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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited July 2009
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Depends on the SS amp.
    H9

    I agree,
    Of course it is a single ended mosfet amplifier. Those two parameters remove it from the average SS amplifier. Do you have the "3" or the "30" model? Good alternative but its expensive compared to some really good 30 to 50wpc tube amps. I would like to try one of these SS beasts with the horns some day.
    madmax

    http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/674/

    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0701/volksamp.htm
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2009
    MM, mine is the Aleph 30 and it's everything anyone has ever said about it. One of the most musical sounding amps I've laid ears on.

    Amusing little story about the Volksamp name. Because of the success of the original Aleph 3 the idea was to use a different chassis rather than machining a solid block of aluminum. They used less expensive chassis for the Aleph 30, revised the topology a bit by adding 50% more Mosfet output tranny's, added a larger PS with better regulation and balanced inputs. Improving both the S/N ratio and allowing for more current for harder to drive speakers, higher damping factor and lower noise, but maintaning the original "sweetness" of the original at about 20% less final cost.

    It was labled by Pass Labs at that time as an "afforable amp for the people" hence like the Volkswagen was affordable tranportation for the people.......they named it the "Volksamp". It's current iterration is the Alpeh J made by Nelson's "kitchen table" endevour, First Watt. It uses J-fets for the front end Hand assembled and tested in short production runs of about 100-150.

    I can not praise this amp or Nelson's current designs enough. If you ever have the opportunity you should get your ears on one. It will the change the way you think about SS amplification.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited July 2009
    Nelson Pass definitely knows how to design good sounding, high-performing solid state amps.
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Generally it is true though that the best vacuum tube amps (e.g., Marantz 8B) have pretty hefty output iron
    And how about McIntosh,they know a thing or two about winding output tranformers and their unique bifilar windings likely had a lot to do with the good SQ they were noted for.I had a (and regrettably sold) vintage Mac MC240 and the output transformers were rather beefy.
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    And how about McIntosh,they know a thing or two about winding output tranformers and their unique bifilar windings likely had a lot to do with the good SQ they were noted for.I had a (and regrettably sold) vintage Mac MC240 and the output transformers were rather beefy.

    MC240 is a very nice MaC Classic! I hope you'll have a chance to find another one.

    On the other hands, I no longer want to think how many watts I need from my SS amps. 10W of continuous power is all I would want from my Technics SE-A3 to drive a pair of Carver Plats.

    I think 1 Technics Watt = 10 Tube Watts. :D
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • blakeh
    blakeh Posts: 491
    edited July 2009
    I had a 250W ADCOM GFA-585 driving my LSi9 speakers in my office system when I decided to buy a Dodd 50W tube amp to replace it. At first I was a little wary and concerned that dropping 200 watts would have a negative effect on my listening.

    Don't know why I was worried! The Dodd drives the speakers to ear-bleeding levels with no problem at all.
    /COLOR] [U][URL="http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=68366"][COLOR="Blue"]My Rigs[/U][/COLOR][/URL] [COLOR="Red" Balanced Audio Technology | Revel | Dodd | Monarchy | PS Audio | MIT | Polk | Etc.
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    megasat16 wrote: »
    MC240 is a very nice MaC Classic! I hope you'll have a chance to find another one.
    After seeing what they sell for these days I wish I had held on to it awhile longer.:( Mine would have been considered a D1 grade= fair condition .

    http://www.audioclassics.com/detail.php3?detail=MC240
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  • mmadden28
    mmadden28 Posts: 4,283
    edited July 2009
    Doesn't the Class of amp come into play as well?
    (I'm talking Class A, Class B, Class D, etc)
    ____________________
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2009
    Guys/Girls,, I've been looking for these,,this is a couple of pic's of the tube amps that Bob Carver made and gave away at last years fest,,and they will/did drive the ALS very ,very nicely,,enough of my blah.blah here you go
    IIRC, Bob said the tubes should last a looooong time,,maybe Jesse remembers.
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited July 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    And how about McIntosh,they know a thing or two about winding output tranformers and their unique bifilar windings likely had a lot to do with the good SQ they were noted for.I had a (and regrettably sold) vintage Mac MC240 and the output transformers were rather beefy.

    Goes without saying :-)

    I only invoked the 8B because I had the pleasure of restoring one and learned first hand how heavy they are. I unfortunately have almost no hands-on experience with the big ol' Macs. If I ever stumble across an affordable MC-225... it'll be coming home with me. Wouldn't turn down a 240 either...
    mmadden28 wrote: »
    Doesn't the Class of amp come into play as well?
    (I'm talking Class A, Class B, Class D, etc)


    Not really, no. Class B will generate a watt much more efficiently than Class A but at the expense of crossover (notch) distortion. Class D is more efficient still, but would be cumbersome to implement with vacuum tubes :-)
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2009
    mmadden28 wrote: »
    Doesn't the Class of amp come into play as well?
    (I'm talking Class A, Class B, Class D, etc)

    Absolutely! Probably the most important aspect of quality sound. There are always exceptions, of course.

    H9

    P.s. RE: mhardy's response.......if you mean does amp class limit output power (watts), I agree no. But there are many, many high power class A/B, G, D amps that sound like doo doo. Just because it's capable of high wattage (measured) doesn't mean it will sound any good at all.
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    Goes without saying :-)
    I was just throwing it out there as another example of good transformer design.
    I only invoked the 8B because I had the pleasure of restoring one
    Lucky you, a genuine piece of audio history that.
    Class D is more efficient still, but would be cumbersome to implement with vacuum tubes :-)
    No kidding,it would be abit tricky trying to get output tubes to turn on and off as quickly as do MOSFET's.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited July 2009
    well... digital circuits were pioneered with vacuum tubes; it can be done. Analog op-amps used to be made with vacuum tubes, too. Long, long ago I had a hand-me-down Heathkit analog computer with a whole row of two tube analog op-amps sitting on top of it.

    EDIT: Speaking of vacuum tube digital computers... some here might enjoy this link if you've not seen it before...
    http://www.ominous-valve.com/vtsc.html

    EDIT^2: For the record, the 8B is a **** of an amplifier... on my short list of hardware that I still really want to get an example of for the 'collection'.
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    well... digital circuits were pioneered with vacuum tubes; it can be done.
    But not with >90% efficiency.
    Analog op-amps used to be made with vacuum tubes, too.
    There still are few of those around in the DIY circles,I think Erno Borbely sells a kit for one of his designs.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited July 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    But not with >90% efficiency... There still are few of those around in the DIY circles,I think Erno Borbely sells a kit for one of his designs.

    Check, and check, respectively!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    I remembered the first Analog Computer (called Data Processing machine at that time, I think), takes about a week to warm up to operate normally (do any useful calculations) and has the size of a (may be 10) football field. With that being said, I think it's computing power are below 1MHz of today standards. Also needs a team of men to debug it for any potential problem so the calculations are correct.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • bikezappa
    bikezappa Posts: 2,463
    edited July 2009
    In electricity Watt=Voltage times Amperes or W=EI

    Watts are a measure of power and are just like Horsepower

    1 Watt = 0.00134 HP

    In electricity and Hi Fi a watt can be further defined with a specific frequincy response and distortion rating per watt.

    But 10 SS watts and 10 tube Tube watts are the same if the frequency response and distortion are the same for each.

    Hope that helps.
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited July 2009
    This is one instance where topologies, as heiney9 points out above, have to be taken into consideration.

    And one of the few instances where almost anyone can 'actually' hear the difference even if the information above is accepted.

    I leave this to the more astute to carry on.

    Does anyone here 'think' a tube amp sounds worse than an SS?

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    cnh wrote: »
    Does anyone here 'think' a tube amp sounds worse than an SS?

    cnh

    Yes! An out of bias Tube Amp can sounds bad as well as the older vintage tube amp with worn out resistors and half dead transformers can sounds very bad.

    The tube itself can sounds bad too. :D

    There are lots of reason when to love tubes and when not to love Tubes.
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2009
    cnh wrote: »

    Does anyone here 'think' a tube amp sounds worse than an SS?

    cnh

    Absolutley in some cases! Just because it has tubes doesn't automatically mean you have better sound. Synergy, topology, type of tubes used, etc., etc. all play a key roll.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited July 2009
    Ok, I went a bit too far....as an academic I should REMEMBER to always 'qualify' my remarks.

    What I meant was a GOOD tube amp....not one with bad tubes, strange topologies, worn out parts, and so on. Never intending to imply the ambiguities I left above.

    I was just trying to see if we can all 'mostly' agree that a 'good' tube amp will always sound as good or better than a SS amp....excluding certain class As like Brocks's Aleph! Because some class As do sound great as well.

    And taking into consideration synergy assuming all equipment and sources to be equal or of similar abilities--because that would be another Qualifier in this equation....

    Sorry...

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2009
    cnh wrote: »
    Ok, I went a bit too far....as an academic I should REMEMBER to always 'qualify' my remarks.

    What I meant was a GOOD tube amp....not one with bad tubes, strange topologies, worn out parts, and so on. Never intending to imply the ambiguities I left above.

    I was just trying to see if we can all 'mostly' agree that a 'good' tube amp will always sound as good or better than a SS amp....excluding certain class As like Brocks's Aleph! Because some class As do sound great as well.

    And taking into consideration synergy assuming all equipment and sources to be equal or of similar abilities--because that would be another Qualifier in this equation....

    Sorry...

    cnh

    It really depends..........there are no absolutes. I would never say in "general" one sounds better than the other. Take it on a case by case basis.

    I love (meaning I will probably be buried with it) my Aleph, it has all the SS qualities as well as most tube qualities. Will it work for everyone in every rig or environment........no.

    For me, I can't answer your question.....even in general as it's to subjective.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    It is my opinion that its entirely possible in a system context for a "good" Class D amp (ie Hypex UcD) to outperform a good tube amp.:eek:;).
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    It is my opinion that its entirely possible in a system context for a "good" Class D amp (ie Hypex UcD) to outperform a good tube amp.:eek:;).
    I hope Ted doesn't see this. :D
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    Face wrote: »
    I hope Ted doesn't see this. :D
    Yep I may take a few hits with that one,but.....:D;)
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited July 2009
    Well perhaps I was hasty in thinking we could 'agree' about some parameters.

    The more I view some of the material here. I am reminded of a wonderful short story by Borges the great Argentine writer.

    In this story we are introduced to a land of cartographers. A place where everyone in the land is obsessed with correctly representing their territory. As time passes the maps become more and more detailed. And still the people are not satisfied because there is always some small corner that is NOT represented on the map.

    So the great masters devise a plan to create a map that is as LARGE as the land beneath it that has a corresponding point ABOVE for every point BELOW. But alas once this great map is completed the inhabitants are forever having to attend to it because the elements are not kind and there are always holes and tears in the giant PERFECT map?

    A wonderful allegory by a master.

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

    Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
    [sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash]
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited July 2009
    cnh,

    I think it'll be hard to generalize the idea of a Good Tube Amp sounds as good or better than a good solid state amps.

    Like H9 said, this is too subjective and there is no absolutes. And the real answer may have to be based on one's own ears.

    With all being equal in the chain, a Tube amp usually has very smooth vocal (that's where the Tube magic happens) and highs at the expenses of higher noise floor. Also, a good Tube amp with less power may suffer control and authority over Large Woofers for really deep low bass extension.

    I have many solid state amps since I love the technology and simplicity of it. I don't have to think too much about rolling tubes and get up to check bias on Tube before listening to it. A good Solid State amps can sound as good or better than a good Tube Amps and vice versa. But tube folks may say that the Sand lacks Life and restricted to a sandbox. So, it really depends on what you want to believe.

    But to me...

    Tubes are for Boy's Fantasies...

    Sands are for Man's Dreams...

    To each it's own and YMMV.....
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited July 2009
    Face wrote: »
    I hope Ted doesn't see this. :D

    He'll live...you just have to come to grips with the fact that technology marches on. Some might like it others not so much.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2009
    pearsall001 wrote: »
    He'll live...you just have to come to grips with the fact that technology marches on. Some might like it others not so much.

    Coming from someone with a Nikko amp. :D;)
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited July 2009
    Face wrote: »
    Coming from someone with a Nikko amp. :D;)

    Vintage gear is always the exception to the rule!!! :D;) Nothing like a trip down memory lane!!!
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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