Tube amp vs Solid State ouputs?

engtaz
engtaz Posts: 7,663
edited August 2009 in 2 Channel Audio
I was wondering what the Tube amp vs Solid State outputs are equivalent to.
IE: 20wt tube + 50wt SS. I have listened to low tub amps and they seam to be more powerful in sound to the equivalent SS amp. I know It might be mental. LOL :D:D:D

Thanks
engtaz

I love how music can brighten up a bad day.
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  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited July 2009
    I can't speak in any way about this considering I've got very little experience with tubes, but I hear it too. Even weaker tubes just put out so much power, and make my speakers sing as opposed to an even more powerful SS amp that I had them hooked up to. The sound seems so much more natural and since then I decided I'd only use tube for my 2-chan listening :cool:
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  • Hilbert
    Hilbert Posts: 316
    edited July 2009
    IIRC Jolida website claims 1 tube watt = 2 or 3 SS watts.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2009
    Hilbert wrote: »
    IIRC Jolida website claims 1 tube watt = 2 or 3 SS watts.
    New math eh?
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited July 2009
    A watt is a watt. The rest is your mind playing tricks on you.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,284
    edited July 2009
    I doubt that you could write an equation for the relationship between tube amp power and SS power.

    But I will say that Tubes sound 'more' powerful at the same wattage than an SS. And a watt is not always a watt!

    Look at heiney9, he's running SDA-1Cs with a 30 x 2 watt amp! I think. And he has NO shortage of power!

    I've also heard a 60 watt/channel tube make a 130 watt ss integrated beg for mercy.

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

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  • markmarc
    markmarc Posts: 2,309
    edited July 2009
    Part of the reason I feel tubes sound more powerful is that the power supply, etc. are plain beefier and can draw far more instantaneous current. That translates into slam, punch, etc. Try lifting a tube amp or int. amp, damn things are hernia makers.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,561
    edited July 2009
    A watt is a watt.

    On the other hand all watts are not created equal.

    Tubes amps soft clip while SS amps hard clip. Tube amps produce even order distortion while SS amps produce odd order distortion. Thus tube watts have the ability to perform at a level equal to or greater than double that of SS watts.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited July 2009
    A watt is a watt. Tube amplifiers tend to compress before they clip "hard"; when a solid state amplifier's output transistor hits the DC supply "rail" voltage; that's all there is and there ain't no more; solid state amplifiers tend to be fairly well behaved (linear) up to just below the clipping threshold, at clipping they tend to produce tremendous amounts of higher-frequency harmonics. This can be quite dangerous to tweeters.

    There have been adaptive power supply designs (e.g., Hitachi's "Class H" of the late 1970s) designed to extend the headroom of solid state power amplifiers.

    N.B. Vacuum tube outputs can do this too; but they tend to be more forgiving (both to your ears and to your tweeters).
    F1nut wrote: »
    Tube amps produce even order distortion while SS amps produce odd order distortion.

    Actually that is more of a single-ended vs. push pull thing. Push-pull amplifiers, as a direct consequence of the topology, produce only odd-order harmonics. It is the euphonic even-order harmonic distortion (and the relative lack of higher-frequency/higher-order distortion products) that can make single-ended tube amplifiers sound so dang... seductive :-)

    Push-pull tube amplifiers can sound pretty durn good too; I use one regularly in the living room.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound#Harmonic_content_and_distortion
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  • engtaz
    engtaz Posts: 7,663
    edited July 2009
    Thanks F1nut. I thought I had read something like that.
    engtaz

    I love how music can brighten up a bad day.
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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2009
    markmarc wrote: »
    Part of the reason I feel tubes sound more powerful is that the power supply, etc. are plain beefier and can draw far more instantaneous current. That translates into slam, punch, etc. Try lifting a tube amp or int. amp, damn things are hernia makers.

    Man,, you got that right,, I moved my little 40 watter today,,I had forgotten how heavy those trannies are,, damn.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,561
    edited July 2009
    Roy, did you hear Skip's rig at Carverfest last year where the 180wpc tube amps smoked both the 575 wpc 9t's and the 600wpc Sunfire? Or the 75wpc tube amp that drove the SDA 1C's in that huge room to very loud levels?
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited July 2009
    It's all perception...but when you draw it up on paper and at the end of the day a watt is still......are you ready for this...a WATT!!!! Sounds like PT Barnum's been lurking here. Where's that Krell when you need one!
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited July 2009
    ... and if you have 745.7 of them, you've got one horsepower.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,561
    edited July 2009
    Again Phil, all watts are not created equal or do you think all amps sound the same too.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • george daniel
    george daniel Posts: 12,096
    edited July 2009
    F1nut wrote: »
    Roy, did you hear Skip's rig at Carverfest last year where the 180wpc tube amps smoked both the 575 wpc 9t's and the 600wpc Sunfire? Or the 75wpc tube amp that drove the SDA 1C's in that huge room to very loud levels?

    he, he,, yep and yep ;) certainly a "magic" moment
    JC approves....he told me so. (F-1 nut)
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,561
    edited July 2009
    I should add that there are some damn good SS amps out there that have nothing to be ashamed of.



    Yeah George, I know you know. :)
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited July 2009
    F1nut wrote: »
    Again Phil, all watts are not created equal or do you think all amps sound the same too.

    In a well conducted double blind listening test, with everything level matched, yes indeed all amps will sound the same. Now wait a minute, I thought I was over on the Audoholics forum...:D Had you going there didn't I Jesse!!!

    It's no secret that tube & SS amps are of a different design philosophy & act & react in different manners. Tubes certainly clip differently than SS & give that perceived "easy on the ears" distortion. But no matter how you slice & dice it, a watt is a watt, same as one horsepower is one horsepower. What you do with it after that is another whole ball game. There in lies the difference.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • engtaz
    engtaz Posts: 7,663
    edited July 2009
    No, I did not get the chance. I had my son there, so I tended to be running around visiting everybody and tried to not neglect him. But I have played with a 20 watts tube amp and a 200 watt and the 20 watt tube surprised the heck out of me. At the my loud ref level the tube was cleaner at the same loudness.
    engtaz

    I love how music can brighten up a bad day.
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited July 2009
    markmarc wrote: »
    Part of the reason I feel tubes sound more powerful is that the power supply, etc. are plain beefier and can draw far more instantaneous current.
    SS PS's are lower voltage but higher current than their high voltage tubed counterparts.
    try lifting a tube amp or int. amp, damn things are hernia makers.
    The necessity of using big bulky output transformers account for most of the extra weight.
    mhardy6647 wrote: »
    A watt is a watt. Tube amplifiers tend to compress before they clip "hard"; when a solid state amplifier's output transistor hits the DC supply "rail" voltage; that's all there is and there ain't no more; solid state amplifiers tend to be fairly well behaved (linear) up to just below the clipping threshold, at clipping they tend to produce tremendous amounts of higher-frequency harmonics. This can be quite dangerous to tweeters......

    Actually that is more of a single-ended vs. push pull thing. Push-pull amplifiers, as a direct consequence of the topology, produce only odd-order harmonics. It is the euphonic even-order harmonic distortion (and the relative lack of higher-frequency/higher-order distortion products) that can make single-ended tube amplifiers sound so dang... seductive :-)

    Push-pull tube amplifiers can sound pretty durn good too; I use one regularly in the living room.
    ^That about covers it.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,561
    edited July 2009
    Actually that is more of a single-ended vs. push pull thing. Push-pull amplifiers, as a direct consequence of the topology, produce only odd-order harmonics. It is the euphonic even-order harmonic distortion (and the relative lack of higher-frequency/higher-order distortion products) that can make single-ended tube amplifiers sound so dang... seductive :-)

    Yeah, you're right. I keep **** that one up.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • AudioGenics
    AudioGenics Posts: 2,567
    edited July 2009
    Tube audio equipment can have voltage potentials exceeding 700 volts AC.

    That is why they are so HOT !
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  • markmarc
    markmarc Posts: 2,309
    edited July 2009
    For the same $$ spent, I'll still take a tube over 90% of the SS amps on the market. Plus, it's fair to note that the better to awesome quality SS amps have some serious weight issues as well.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited July 2009
    GV#27 wrote: »
    The necessity of using big bulky output transformers account for most of the extra weight.

    I thought about saying that, but demurred because I thought about good sounding amplifiers like the 1950s - 1960s Magnavox (Maggotbox) SE and PP console amps, or the SE Bottlehead Paramours, that use extremely modest output transformers (and still sound quite good). Generally it is true though that the best vacuum tube amps (e.g., Marantz 8B) have pretty hefty output iron; it's a necessity for extended, flat LF response -- especially if no added negative feedback is used in an amp design.

    Actually in general I think classic/high-end soiled state gear tends to have proportionately 'stiffer'/more regulated P/S designs than does even cclassic tube amplifiers. The best vacuum tube power supplies I've seen are all DIY, cost no object. Tubes (most of 'em, anyway) need high "B+" (plate) voltage to operate; especially power output tubes.

    F1nut wrote: »
    Yeah, you're right. I keep **** that one up.

    Lots of people do (I tend to forget, myself).
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited July 2009
    Hilbert wrote: »
    IIRC Jolida website claims 1 tube watt = 2 or 3 SS watts.

    Agree with their estimation. I've had several tube amps ranging from 16wpc to 200wpc and they compare powerwise to their 50 to 750wpc SS counterparts. Quality sound wise the cost of SS is far more than that of tubes. Lets face it, they did it right the first time then told us a story about how great transistors are. Well, transistor ARE great if cheapness, portability and power usage are the only aspects to consider. Just like digital vs analog. Sure you remove noise and add tons of convienience and portability, but then you lose tone.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2009
    The best analogy I can come up it a diesel powered engine vs. gasoline powered engine.

    They are just different and I don;t believe there is a "formula" that can adequetly express why tubes can sound more powerful. It all depends on the associated load and other gear, type of tubes, number of tubes, PS, etc, etc.

    A watt IS a watt............but as F1 stated not all watts are created equal.

    Even amps that only exhibit 2nd order harmonics (like a tube amp does) have tube amp characteristics but don't sound exactly like tubes. You also have to keep in mind sometimes a tube amp has a SS rectifier and sometimes it has a tube rectifier. That one difference right there can be huge in the finally output.

    Fundamentally there are some huge differences between a tube powered amp and an SS powered amp. There are some really nice SS amps that can have many of the characteristics of tube amps............but in the end they don;t quite get the entire experience.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • engtaz
    engtaz Posts: 7,663
    edited July 2009
    So with all these calculations will a 20 watt tube amp run speakers that need 100 watts minimum? :)
    engtaz

    I love how music can brighten up a bad day.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited July 2009
    Watts are over rated.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited July 2009
    engtaz wrote: »
    So with all these calculations will a 20 watt tube amp run speakers that need 100 watts minimum? :)

    Not very loudly. However, a 20w tube amp will still sound good whereas the 20w SS amp will emit nasty intermodulation distortion which prevents any enjoyment and may actually have enough clipping power to damage drivers.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2009
    madmax wrote: »
    Not very loudly. However, a 20w tube amp will still sound good whereas the 20w SS amp will emit nasty intermodulation distortion which prevents any enjoyment and may actually have enough clipping power to damage drivers.

    Well not in most cases. Depends on the SS amp. I'd put my Aleph (30wpc) up against any higher powered SS amp and many tube amps.

    I have yet to reach my listening threshold running the Aleph with my 1C's in my listening environemnt. The only time I really heard the amp strain was at one our RAS meets running a pair of LSi 15's very loud in pretty large open room. I could just start to hear the soundstage compressing and knew for ultimate SPL with those speakers in that large room more wattage would be needed.

    It still sounded the best of any of the amps we were using that day with the Monarchy SM70 mono blocks a very close 2nd. At sane levels 30wpc single ended pure class A played the Lsi 15's with ease.

    I do agree that most inexpensive AB amps will exhibit what you describe above (at that rated output). One of the nicest things about tubes is their soft clipping characteristics.

    YMMV

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited July 2009
    Face wrote: »
    Watts are over rated.

    I absolutely concur :-)
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