polkaudio’s guarantee not worth that much.

thuffman03

ynotamil wrote: »

==My AVR is 100 watts and as I mentioned at the beggining "in principle" I burnt that speaker with 50 watts and they are rated 100 watts.

I would not say that 1/2 volume is equal to 50 watts on your AVR. I am not sure what the wattage output would be but it can be different and vary depending on what is being played.

You would be very supprised how little power you might be putting out at 1/2 volume. 5 to 10 watts of power can be very loud. My amp is rated at 500 wpc and I rarly get it above 50 watts. It helps with some of the older amps that they have power output meters on them. To bad most new amps don't have that feature.

Just remember that to double the volume you need 10 times the power. So if you are using 5 watts it takes 50 watts to double the volume.

vmaxer

jvc wrote: »

hmmmmm.......helped you many times.....

turn down the volume control or put in a smaller fuse !

just joking... LOL

Nppe!!! got more power......:eek:

jacob.simpson

Before coming to assumptions about Polk Customer Service and product reliability i think most of the folks should go through the manual, little bit of addional know how of how to take care of your gear Etc, would have been good.
THIS IS ONE OF THE REASON I WILL NEVER SWITCH TO ANOTHER BRAND, NOW APART FROM HAVING GREAT QUALITY PRODUCTS, INCIDENTS AND CUSTOMER ORIENTATION IS WHAT DIFFERENTIATES POLK FROM OTHER BRANDS

nguyendot

FYI -

Most Sony ES receivers barely make half of their rated output at all channels driven.

Here's an example :
http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/sony_str-da5400es_av_receiver/index3.html
(this is a higher end unit than yours, with higher power ratings of 120wpc).

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 39.4 watts
1% distortion at 45.0 watts


That is 1% at 45.0 watts. Imagine what it hit at 50-60watts. Distortion will go up exponentially beyond 1%.

Fongolio

thuffman03 wrote: »

I would not say that 1/2 volume is equal to 50 watts on your AVR. I am not sure what the wattage output would be but it can be different and vary depending on what is being played.

You would be very supprised how little power you might be putting out at 1/2 volume. 5 to 10 watts of power can be very loud.

Actually as Ken pointed out in his post most receivers reach full rated power (with published distortion) at the 12:00 o'clock position which most of us would think of as half volume. I have a Carver TFM-25 amp with a Carver CT-Seven pre and I never go past half way.

AudioGenics

if you play hard
just
keep a stock of spare parts and backups ready !

[Deleted User]

Hello,
I believe what might be happening is that when people are considering their audio purchase they look at how much power the receiver produces, for example they read "100 Watts/channel". Then they look at what the speaker company recommends for associated power and read, "20 to 200 Watts/channel". So, they logically think that the speaker couldn't be damaged since the 100 Watt number is one half of the upper number of the speaker. And this is completely understandable, I would probably come to the same conclusion. The receiver would only go up to 100 Watts and no additional power would be made. Since there is a control that raises and lowers the volume if I turn it all the way up I will still be within 100 watts. I'm sure many an audio sales person says, "don't worry you can turn this all the way up and the speakers will be fine".
The only product, I'm aware of, that would work this way are the McIntosh amplifiers with their distortion limiting circuit that prevents more than 1.5% distortion from reaching the speakers.
But, everything else has the potential to cause damage if the owner doesn't recognize when limits have been reached.
Regards, Ken

shack

Kenneth Swauger wrote:

But, everything else has the potential to cause damage if the owner doesn't recognize when limits have been reached.
Regards, Ken

Bingo!

This is a classic clipping issue IMO.

When an amplifier is pushed to create a signal with more power than its power supply can produce, it will amplify the signal only up to its maximum capacity, at which point the signal will be amplified no further. As the signal simply "cuts" or "clips" at the maximum capacity of the amplifier, the signal is said to be "clipping". The extra signal which is beyond the capability of the amplifier is simply cut off, resulting in a sine wave becoming a distorted square wave type waveform.

In power amplifiers, the signal from an amplifier operating in clipping has characteristics that could damage a connected loudspeaker.

Because the clipped waveform has more area underneath it than the smaller maximum unclipped waveform, the amplifier produces more output power. This extra power can cause damage to any part of the loudspeaker, including the woofer, tweeter, or crossover, via overheating.

So yes, just because the amp has a so called maximum output, does not mean that it can't produce enough power when overdriven to fry a speaker...Which is what the OP has done IMO.

nooshinjohn

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

The only product, I'm aware of, that would work this way are the McIntosh amplifiers with their distortion limiting circuit that prevents more than 1.5% distortion from reaching the speakers.
But, everything else has the potential to cause damage if the owner doesn't recognize when limits have been reached.
Regards, Ken

I knew there was a reason to go for the cool blue lights;)

TECHNOKID

Fongolio wrote: »

Actually as Ken pointed out in his post most receivers reach full rated power (with published distortion) at the 12:00 o'clock position which most of us would think of as half volume. I have a Carver TFM-25 amp with a Carver CT-Seven pre and I never go past half way.

+1
I was very fortunate to use many amplifiers and receivers at this point in my life being in the technical sector. Never ever have used any amplifiers/receivers in much more than 1/2 or 12 Oclock as past that you generate distortion, peaks and valleys, those are harsh and destructive for speaker coils. Even in the proffessional/commercial sector, this is standard even for powered speakers, you set power approximately 1/2 or lower and let the pre-amp/mixer control its volume output. We have to realize that like AC, audio amplification has higher/abnormal peaks at times and they must be seriously considered at the O/P which the end of the chain is the speakers!

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

Hello,
I believe what might be happening is that when people are considering their audio purchase they look at how much power the receiver produces, for example they read "100 Watts/channel". Then they look at what the speaker company recommends for associated power and read, "20 to 200 Watts/channel". So, they logically think that the speaker couldn't be damaged since the 100 Watt number is one half of the upper number of the speaker. And this is completely understandable, I would probably come to the same conclusion. The receiver would only go up to 100 Watts and no additional power would be made. Since there is a control that raises and lowers the volume if I turn it all the way up I will still be within 100 watts. I'm sure many an audio sales person says, "don't worry you can turn this all the way up and the speakers will be fine".
The only product, I'm aware of, that would work this way are the McIntosh amplifiers with their distortion limiting circuit that prevents more than 1.5% distortion from reaching the speakers.
But, everything else has the potential to cause damage if the owner doesn't recognize when limits have been reached.
Regards, Ken

Great insight info Kenneth! Thanks for being there with us! I never had the chance to thank you for your prompt reply email/info on the PSWi225, you rock! Yet this product isn't readily available in Canada. After I receive your response, I sent Walter and email and he responded Crutshfield Canada was the only place who carried it at this point (while Crutchfield is a highly respectable provider, the CDN price for the PSWi225 is really harsh in my opinion!). Anyway, thanks again for being there for us!

ynotamil, take Kenneth's help offer here as your problem will promptly get resolved. You had a bad experience, learn from it and carry on, Polk really rocks when it comes to speakers (high end or beginner Polk product is all reliable product, in most cases it is the BBB!).

Cheers!
TK

[Deleted User]

Hello TK,
I'm glad the information was helpful. That's the real beauty of Club Polk is the ability for everyone to share knowledge and experience.
Take care, Ken

ynotamil

jvc wrote: »

you may be out of pocket for the speaker driver that was burnt.

I would think a replacement speaker driver is reasonable cost.

although since it is an imported item it may be more than what we in the US would be use to.

==At today's exchange rate one new RM7 will cost +/- US$190, to repair US$120. Not bad; it is more a question of principles.

how many drivers are bad / burnt ?
== one, the midrange.

Tony

ynotamil

jvc wrote: »

also consider a current limiting device ( small rating fuse )

==Never heard of this, but I will follow up for sure.
Sorry about the delay in reply, but you Know I'm many hours ahead of you. I'm going to bed, you probably going for lunch

Thanks for the info.
Tony

nguyendot

I'm unsure of what principles you are referring to. It seems very likely that you damaged the product from improper usage (not being careful), which is never covered under any warranty.

ynotamil

nguyendot wrote: »

How did you figure you were pushing 50 watts to the speakers? Sony ES does not rate full bandwidth to their channels (the latest ES reviewed didn't come close to 100% of its rated power).

== Can you direct me to that review please? I would love to read it.
== Simple "ASSUMPTION". Assuming the AVR outputs 100 watts max., when the volume is half way, I think the output is half or probably less.

Second, the volume control is not usually relative, but logarithmic. Just because you had it at 50% of volume, doesn't mean you were putting 50 watts out.

Half output on a Sony ES receiver is EXTREMELY high output. At half on my Sony ES, it would crack the windows and make my ears bleed. I almost never go above 35%. At half, I would actually believe there would be distortion or clipping.
== I guarantee you & can prove it to you that at half volume on my AVR you can put your ears half a meter or even less, away from a speaker & you will not bleed. At half volume you can still have a conversation at a normal voice. No way that my windows will notice that the sound is loud, at that volume. Distortion at that level? Not even close, nothing at all. I am telling you, the sound is not THAT loud at all at half volume.
When I reached the 60 to 65% of the volume this week (without blowing up any speaker, by the way) then, the sound was loud. At this level you have to raise your voice to make yourself understood, but not shout.
What Sony have you got, by the way?

Thanks, Tony

nguyendot

Sony 555ES, 120wpc.

I posted the link, did I not? that is for the HIGHER end unit than yours. So with your logic (assumption), the unit they tested (DA5400ES) which is 2 or 3 models higher than yours, only put out 39.4 watts before .1% distortion, and 45watts at 1%. If you were really pushing 50 watts, you were at a much higher distortion.

It really seems like you are not reading the posts in this thread, you're asking questions already answered not once, but multiple times. Please take all comments into consideration prior to posting a reply requesting information already put forth.

Your logic is wrong on "assuming" that half (12 o'clock) is 50% volume. Once again, it is logarithmic, not relative. You have to double power for every 3db increase in sound.

At 50% on the dial, you were asking your amp to potentially put out 100% of its power output depending on the signal. At 60 to 65%, you were asking your amp to have the ability to put out more than it's rated for, resulting in distortion, and eventually clipping/square waves. Just ONCE is enough to blow your speaker, and just ONCE is considered improper usage/misuse.

ynotamil

F1nut wrote: »

And that's exactly when you did the damage. Note, I said YOU did the damage.....by turning the volume up too high sending your AVR into clipping, which in turn fried the voice coil. All it takes is one time. Bottom line, you've got nobody to blame but yourself. Live and learn.....keep the volume level down to a reasonable level.

==You did not read my posts properly. Let me repeat: the speaker burnt within six days. Up to that day I always kept the volume below 50%. Two/three weeks AFTER that incident and working with a 4.1 system (one speaker in the workshop) I ventured into the 60 to 65 % level. Incidentally, I got to this level a few times already and up to today no other speaker burnt.
Once again, no distortion was noted at all and believe me, I was "looking" for some. The AVR and the speakers behaved beautifully.
So, the volume has nothing to do with that accident. This is my point.

Thanks, Tony

ynotamil

royalty wrote: »

Now I dont know if this is true or not but I have always felt that one should let the speaker break in for a reasonable amount of time before subjecting it to play at high volumes. Perhaps turning up the volume on a very new speaker (an entry level one at that) is not the wisest thing to do. It is unfortunate that this has happened to you, and I hope you can get the situation resolved for as little money as you can

Thank you for you concern.
The "running in" theory was exactly why I used low volume during the first +/-10 days. Although polkaudio does not recommend or impose that.

Tony

ynotamil

Kenneth Swauger wrote: »

Hello Tony,
Welcome to the Forum, I'm sorry you are having a problem. Send an email message to me at kswauger@polkaudio.com and I'll help out with a replacement driver for your speaker.
Most high level audio sources (CD player, DVD player, cassette decks and separate tuners) can supply sufficient output voltages to drive most receivers and separate pre-amp/power amp combination to full rated output when the receiver/pre-amp's volume control is near the "12:00 o'clock" setting. This is referring to a type of volume control that begins at the "7:00 o'clock" position and rotates to the "5:00 o'clock" position. If you took your CD player and connected it directly to the amplifier section of the Sony receiver, the signal coming from the CD player would be enough to reach the receiver's rated output. So, when the volume is near the "12:00 o'clock" position the full output of the CD player is going into the amplifier section, of the receiver, and resulting in full power; all the power the receiver can make at the rated amount of distortion.
When you turn the volume past this point the receiver can make additional power, however the content of this additional power becomes contaminated with fairly high amounts of destructive odd order harmonic distortion. Remember the receiver doesn't stop at the rated power, that is only an amount of power that results in acceptably low audible distortion. You can exceed this power output but each receiver company's products will result in different levels and content of the resultant distortion. Some receivers react more "gracefully" than others and produce a more gradual rising of distortion. Other companies, because of different design philosophies, will react more violently and produce large amounts of distortion with slight overdriving.
In any event, contact me and I'll help.
Regards, Ken, Polk Audio

Hi Ken thank you for your reply. Sorry to cut it short but it is close to 1am here and I have to get out of bed by seven. I will come back to you on this.
Thanks,
Tony

george daniel

Eh,,, Can you say,"top shelf customer service",,,Ken,, you are the Man,,,I get goosebumps reading that post.:)

fossy

turn the volume with ear.....

F1nut

Tony, you're simply not getting it. Voice coils don't just up and fry by themselves. It is a direct result of you cranking the volume level too high, period.

nguyendot

Tony, please read this thread from beginning to end, sit there and actually think about the information given to you, then and only then formulate a response based upon given facts.

You simply want to place the blame on Polk instead of what actually caused the problem. Look at the facts and how things work, and you will see the cause (you turned the volume too high 50/60/65% on the dial) and the effect (voice coil blown).

Neither are the fault of the manufacturer. Neither is covered under what you expect as a "guarantee" (warranty).

beardog03

Ken Swauger is a class act, period !

Do like he say`s and contact him, and he will hook you up.
I also suggest that you not only listen to his advise, but I also suggest you listen to the Club Polk Forum Memebers......nothing but solid advise.

Even though it is evident that it was your fault, and even though it was unintentional, Ken and Polk Audio will back their product 110%.

Polk Audio Products and Customer Support is second to none.....period.

Now I think you owe it to Ken and the Forum Membes to stick around and participate, and get your learn on so that you don`t have these types of problems in the future.


As F1 and a few others explained.....including Ken.....

F1nut wrote: »

And that's exactly when you did the damage. Note, I said YOU did the damage.....by turning the volume up too high sending your AVR into clipping, which in turn fried the voice coil. All it takes is one time. Bottom line, you've got nobody to blame but yourself. Live and learn.....keep the volume level down to a reasonable level.

Live and learn, and show Ken your appreciation.
Just my .02

AudioGenics

Please join me in a song

let us All sing together

qum ba YAH' ...... rise up and come fill this emptiness YAHUWAH

all in fun now...

ynotamil

NotaSuv wrote: »

There ya go..........another happy ending to a post that should have never been had they called Super K first............a lesson to learn? you bet..
no matter where in the universe you are help is but a simple phone call away...even if it is your own fault :rolleyes:...............customer service unlike any other, this I can say for sure from what I have seen and experinced....This is one area where POLK really rocks..........................

== Thanks for the input. Remember that I fall outside the area of polkaudio USA. The distributor in S.A. is an independent company and they are the ones that refused to honor the guarantee/warranty. If polkaudio USA at the end helps me, it is entirely at their discretion and goodwill, not obliged to do so.

Tony

ynotamil

jacob.simpson wrote: »

Before coming to assumptions about Polk Customer Service and product reliability i think most of the folks should go through the manual, little bit of addional know how of how to take care of your gear Etc, would have been good.

== Wise words and me being an ex computer programer/network and comms. for 30 years, you bet the first thing I did when open the box of the AVR and of the RM700 was to read the manuals. I did not take the speakers out of the plastic sleeves before I finished the manual/instructions. For me "when everything fails read the manual" does not apply.

THIS IS ONE OF THE REASON I WILL NEVER SWITCH TO ANOTHER BRAND, NOW APART FROM HAVING GREAT QUALITY PRODUCTS, INCIDENTS AND CUSTOMER ORIENTATION IS WHAT DIFFERENTIATES POLK FROM OTHER BRANDS

Regards,
Tony

ynotamil

Fongolio wrote: »

Actually as Ken pointed out in his post most receivers reach full rated power (with published distortion) at the 12:00 o'clock position which most of us would think of as half volume.

== Can you blame anyone who thinks like that? Half volume means full volume; anything over that is just there to blow up the speakers and get people like me to give trouble to people like Ken. Hard to believe. But since this is the consensus of this group, who am I to dispute it?

I have a Carver TFM-25 amp with a Carver CT-Seven pre and I never go past half way.

Appreciate your input.
Tony

nguyendot

Ignorance is not an excuse, especially if you have the internet at your disposal. "I didn't know" simply is not enough to blame a product for. It's not the product's fault you didn't do your research.

ynotamil

TECHNOKID wrote: »

+1
I was very fortunate to use many amplifiers and receivers at this point in my life being in the technical sector. Never ever have used any amplifiers/receivers in much more than 1/2 or 12 Oclock as past that you generate distortion, peaks and valleys, those are harsh and destructive for speaker coils. Even in the proffessional/commercial sector, this is standard even for powered speakers, you set power approximately 1/2 or lower and let the pre-amp/mixer control its volume output. We have to realize that like AC, audio amplification has higher/abnormal peaks at times and they must be seriously considered at the O/P which the end of the chain is the speakers!

=== This is my 3rd amplifier / AVR and 3rd. set of speakers. Never read anything as "Warning: do not use the volume over the half way mark because........"
Instead I read this:
““WARNING: Listen Carefully
polkaudio loudspeakers and subwoofers are capable of playing at extremely high volume levels, which could cause serious or permanent hearing damage.””
==Wow, this shows lots of confidence in the product. Surely, the agents of polkaudio in South Africa never read that statement.
===No mention at all that, at those “EXTREMELY HIGH VOLUME LEVELS,” the speakers “WILL” fry. Also, my ears never suffered any damage when I burnt the speaker.

................
Great insight info Kenneth! Thanks for being there with us! I never had the chance to thank you for your prompt reply email/info on the PSWi225, you rock! Yet this product isn't readily available in Canada. After I receive your response, I sent Walter and email and he responded Crutshfield Canada was the only place who carried it at this point (while Crutchfield is a highly respectable provider, the CDN price for the PSWi225 is really harsh in my opinion!). Anyway, thanks again for being there for us!
ynotamil, take Kenneth's help offer here as your problem will promptly get resolved. You had a bad experience, learn from it and carry on, Polk really rocks when it comes to speakers (high end or beginner Polk product is all reliable product, in most cases it is the BBB!).


=== Thank you for the time you spent in replying and for the advise.
..............
Cheers!
TK

Tony