polkaudio’s guarantee not worth that much.

ynotamil

Greetings to all.
In just 6 days, I burnt one of my brand new RM700 speakers, just because I played music too loud (according to the agents of “pa” in South Africa after inspecting the damaged speaker). The coil is burnt beyond repair and that kind of damage (let us call it DAMAGE F) is not covered by the guarantee.
By default, polkaudio’s guarantee (in case of DAMAGE F) assumes that it is ALWAYS our fault, NEVER a manufacturing defect.
By assuming this, “pa” is saying that the speakers never failed before due to bad materials/workmanship and they will never fail in the future; it was / it will be always our fault (this in case of DAMAGE F). If I ever came across an over statement, this is one: “pa” the builders of the PERFECT speaker.
Unfortunately, I cannot prove that the volume never went over the 50% mark, which it didn’t, and because the coil is completely burnt, I also cannot prove that bad material and or bad workmanship are at the root of the problem. It is my word against “pa” word; and vice versa. In a contest like this, we, the users always loose and have to pay for the repair, as per guarantee.
If “pa” speakers cannot take that much volume (according to their agent in S. A.), can then “pa” H/O in USA tell me how do I handle the sound of DVD’s recorded in Dolby Digital (the vast majority), where the sound jumps from just 3 or 4 dB’s to 50, 60 dB’s? If what the agent of “pa” in South Africa is saying were true, then we all would have blown our speakers long ago. Or is he trying to get an excuse to not to honour the guarantee?
Sounds like that somebody is trying to pull a fast one on me.
Kind regards, Tony

ViperZ

Tony, not sure about polk's customer support in Africa, but it is excellent in North America. Just wait for Ken Swauger to check this thread.

If you burned out a coil, it's most likely not because the speaker could not handle the volume, but because your amplifier/receiver could not provide enough clean power at the high volume. At some point, the amp clipped and you burned the coil out.

slowpolky

Thats very hard to believe

nguyendot

First off, if you could provide some more details about the type of system you are using, such as the receiver, dvd player, etc etc. The type of speaker wire as well. That will help us identify what you are working with and narrow down the issue.

Second, rarely is 'volume' what causes blown speakers. You said your speaker is completely burnt, which means more than likely the speaker went into clipping as a result of pushing the amplifier past its limits or feeding the speaker with an insane amount of power.

We can only guess what happened without further details. So far you only say you've never gone past 50% (analog volume control?).

Polk customer service has almost always gone out of their way to assist their customers. Have you tried contacting them directly?

Ricardo

Guys, this is the direct window to Polk Customer Service. Let's allow them to address this problem.

AudioGenics

you will get excellent support from polk audio USA customer service .

ricardo ... very nice web page !

ynotamil

nguyendot wrote: »

First off, if you could provide some more details about the type of system you are using, such as the receiver, dvd player, etc etc. The type of speaker wire as well. That will help us identify what you are working with and narrow down the issue.

===Brand new (May 09) AVR Sony DA 2400 es. 100 watts. During the first 2 weeks I only had the digital satellite decoder hooked to the AVR. I was listening to music from the satellite when the speaker packed up.

Second, rarely is 'volume' what causes blown speakers. You said your speaker is completely burnt, which means more than likely the speaker went into clipping as a result of pushing the amplifier past its limits or feeding the speaker with an insane amount of power.

= "past its limits or feeding the speaker with an insane amount of power." Can this happen at half the volume? As I said I did not put the volume over the half way mark at that stage. I was trying a new system and at that volume the sound is loud enough for me. Only the last week or so I ventured to the 60 or 65 % of the volume.

We can only guess what happened without further details. So far you only say you've never gone past 50% (analog volume control?).

= Digital.

Polk customer service has almost always gone out of their way to assist their customers. Have you tried contacting them directly?

= Yes, I called the agents and the verdict was the same as the dealer's: damage not covered by the guarantee.

Regards, Tony

ynotamil

ViperZ wrote: »

Tony, not sure about polk's customer support in Africa, but it is excellent in North America.

= The agent and the dealer here in Jo'burg, both told me the same: that kind of damage is not cover by the guarantee. They put it this way: "so, you had a big party last night and you burnt the speaker". If you see my hair (not grey, white), you can imagine what kind of party I could have had, which I did not have any. I'm 66 and too loud music is not for me.

Just wait for Ken Swauger to check this thread.

If you burned out a coil, it's most likely not because the speaker could not handle the volume, but because your amplifier/receiver could not provide enough clean power at the high volume. At some point, the amp clipped and you burned the coil out.

= when you say high volume you mean over half way of the volume? I did not pass that mark, I was very carefully with that, not even by accident and for a second that happened.

Regards,
Tony

ynotamil

slowpolky wrote: »

Thats very hard to believe

That the guarantee does not cover that kind of damage? It is true, believe me. This is according to the agents and the dealer here in S.A., that this is the "policy of polkaudio for that kind of damage", as they put it.
Just telling you what they said.

Regards,
Tony

thuffman03

Sorry to hear you issues but I do have to say you might have underdriven you speaker. This is an educated guess since you did not say what amp you were using to power your speakers.

What I mean is that you were pushing your amp beond what it could do and what will happen if your amp does not have clipping protection it will send a + down both the + and - speaker wires and will cause damage to the speakers.

At least that is what I am told what overdriving an amp does. I am not an EE so I go off of what I have read in the past. Though driving an amp beond what it can put out is bad.

AsSiMiLaTeD

You say you never went past halfway, then go on to say you went up to 65% - which is it?

So you've spoken with someone AT POLK and they've told you the same thing? Who'd you talk to, if you don't mind me asking?

If it's only 6 days old why not just return it to the store you bought it from?

AsSiMiLaTeD

Unless you were BLASTING your speakers, I seriously doubt you were underdriving them using the Sony ES receiver, unless of course there's a problem with the receiver.

ynotamil

thuffman03 wrote: »

Sorry to hear you issues but I do have to say you might have underdriven you speaker. This is an educated guess since you did not say what amp you were using to power your speakers.

What I mean is that you were pushing your amp beond what it could do and what will happen if your amp does not have clipping protection it will send a + down both the + and - speaker wires and will cause damage to the speakers.

At least that is what I am told what overdriving an amp does. I am not an EE so I go off of what I have read in the past. Though driving an amp beond what it can put out is bad.

I appreciate your concern. I, like you, am not in electronics, although I was until retirement a computer programmer and into comms and networks. But surely to overdrive an amp you have to push the volume to the max. Then clipping will occur. I don't think clipping can happen at half volume.

Regards,
Tony

AudioGenics

I searched for clarification of " BURNT VoiceCoil "
found the information from a Professional website that I pasted here

It does provide good information to be aware of and the limitations.

Keep in mind your Polk are not a Professional product line but rather for the Consumer Retail.

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/general_faq.htm#What%20is%20%22Signal%20Burn%22?

What is "Signal Burn"? Signal burn is a failure mode where the voice coil is burnt across its entire width, indicating uniform voice coil travel with respect to the stationary magnet structure. Such a burn pattern is not indicative of amplifier malfunction but instead is due to excessive signal or program level. The cause is simply trying to get more from the speaker than it is capable of delivering.

What is "DC Burn"? DC (direct-current) burn is a failure mode where the voice coil is burnt only at one end. This is an indication that it has been traveling in one direction more than the other. Since the transfer of heat is from the voice coil to the adjacent magnet and metal parts, the voice coil will be burnt on the end that stays the farthest away from the top plate.

* Woofers: When a DC burn pattern appears on the voice coil of a woofer, the problem will be due to a fault in the associated electronic equipment. Most likely, the power amplifier has leaky or shorted transistors that are allowing its internal power supply voltages to be applied directly to the loudspeaker or loudspeaker system.
* Midrange and Tweeter: When a DC burn pattern is observed on the voice coil of such devices, it DOES NOT always mean that the amplifier is faulty. In systems with passive crossovers, mid and high frequency drivers are protected from DC by the cross-over. The most likely cause of DC-like burns is an overdriven amplifier.
* When an amplifier receives an input signal capable of driving it beyond its power rating, the result is clipping. This means that the negative and positive peaks of the amplifier's output signal are "clipped" off. The amplifier may also clip in an asymmetrical fashion, meaning that the positive side of the signal is clipped more than the negative (or vice versa). When subjected to an asymmetrical clipped waveform, one end of the loudspeaker's voice coil is "on average" spending more time outside of the gap (corresponding to the direction that is clipped) than the other. The end of the coil that is spending more time outside of the gap has poor heat transfer to the magnet structure. As a result, it overheats and burns.

ynotamil

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

Unless you were BLASTING your speakers, I seriously doubt you were underdriving them using the Sony ES receiver, unless of course there's a problem with the receiver.

As I mentioned before the AVR is as new as the RM700: MAY 09.
The speaker that burnt was a front one. To test that the speaker was off an not a problem with the AVR, I moved a surround back speaker to that position and, guess what, I was lucky, the AVR was not at fault, the speaker was the one that was stuffed. I was a lucky stupid; could have lost 2 speakers.
But for the last 3 weeks the back speaker that is now in front is fine, like all others. I doubt the AVR is at fault.

Tony

thuffman03

Well half volume is relevent to the system you have. I currenly have a Carver C-5 preamp and a Carver TFM 55 running into my Carver ALIII speakers. The amp is 500wpc into 4 ohms and I never get the knob on the preamp above 50% because it is so loud my walls shake. Now we have very different systems. I had to do a search to see what speakers you were using since I did not know that model.

I hope you can get this resolved and start to enjoy the music again.

ynotamil

AsSiMiLaTeD wrote: »

You say you never went past halfway, then go on to say you went up to 65% - which is it?

==I said "Only the last week or so I ventured to the 60 or 65 % of the volume."
Before that, I kept the volume always below the 50% mark. I bought the speakers and the AVR 5 or 6 weeks ago.

So you've spoken with someone AT POLK and they've told you the same thing? Who'd you talk to, if you don't mind me asking?

==I did not speak to polk people. I spoke to the dealer where I bought the speakers from and then I spoke to the National Sales Director of the agent of polkaudio in South Africa. Both agreed to the verdict of the engineer that inspect the speaker.

If it's only 6 days old why not just return it to the store you bought it from?

== That's what I did. I hoped that they would repair it (and they can; just I have to pay for the repairs) and they told me that the guarantee does not cover that damage.

Regards,
Tony

ynotamil

jvc wrote: »

I searched for clarification of " BURNT VoiceCoil "
found the information from a Professional website that I pasted here

It does provide good information to be aware of and the limitations.

== Thanks for that. I will go through it.

Keep in mind your Polk are not a Professional product line but rather for the Consumer Retail.

== I know, but that is irrelevant to my problem. I'm still out of pocket. I have to buy a new speaker.

Tony

ynotamil

thuffman03 wrote: »

Well half volume is relevent to the system you have. I currenly have a Carver C-5 preamp and a Carver TFM 55 running into my Carver ALIII speakers. The amp is 500wpc into 4 ohms and I never get the knob on the preamp above 50% because it is so loud my walls shake. Now we have very different systems. I had to do a search to see what speakers you were using since I did not know that model.

I hope you can get this resolved and start to enjoy the music again.

==My AVR is 100 watts and as I mentioned at the beggining "in principle" I burnt that speaker with 50 watts and they are rated 100 watts.

You said:
""and start to enjoy the music again.""

==You bet I am. I know that the RM7 are the entry level in polkaudio terms, but I am enjoying the music and the films broadcast in Dolby Digital, surround sound. The Sony is an excellent piece also and combined I have a very good system for the money. Very good indeed. Petty this problem, to put a stain in this business.

Tony

AudioGenics

you may be out of pocket for the speaker driver that was burnt.

I would think a replacement speaker driver is reasonable cost.

although since it is an imported item it may be more than what we in the US would be use to.

how many drivers are bad / burnt ?

AudioGenics

also consider a current limiting device ( small rating fuse )

nguyendot

ynotamil wrote: »

==My AVR is 100 watts and as I mentioned at the beggining "in principle" I burnt that speaker with 50 watts and they are rated 100 watts.

You said:
""and start to enjoy the music again.""

==You bet I am. I know that the RM7 are the entry level in polkaudio terms, but I am enjoying the music and the films broadcast in Dolby Digital, surround sound. The Sony is an excellent piece also and combined I have a very good system for the money. Very good indeed. Petty this problem, to put a stain in this business.

Tony

How did you figure you were pushing 50 watts to the speakers? Sony ES does not rate full bandwidth to their channels (the latest ES reviewed didn't come close to 100% of its rated power).

Second, the volume control is not usually relative, but logarithmic. Just because you had it at 50% of volume, doesn't mean you were putting 50 watts out.

Half output on a Sony ES receiver is EXTREMELY high output. At half on my Sony ES, it would crack the windows and make my ears bleed. I almost never go above 35%. At half, I would actually believe there would be distortion or clipping.

Tony M

How did you figure you were pushing 50 watts to the speakers? Sony ES does not rate full bandwidth to their channels (the latest ES reviewed didn't come close to 100% of its rated power).

Second, the volume control is not usually relative, but logarithmic. Just because you had it at 50% of volume, doesn't mean you were putting 50 watts out.

Half output on a Sony ES receiver is EXTREMELY high output. At half on my Sony ES, it would crack the windows and make my ears bleed. I almost never go above 35%. At half, I would actually believe there would be distortion or clipping.
+1
(I don't know how to tag yet)my thoughts also nguyendot

ESavinon

Firsts and foremost welcome to polkaudio's forum.

Let's get things straight. Polk does not offer a Guaranty; They offer a Warranty.
Please check the differences between the two.

No company in existence will provide "warranty" for misuse of product.
Please refrain from blaming polk for you misuse of product. Once you go past 10-11 o'clock on any preamp or receiver which is below 50% on the volume knob you're liable to go into clipping.
Burnt voice coils is indicative of excessive current meaning excessive amount of volume.

F1nut

Only the last week or so I ventured to the 60 or 65 % of the volume.

And that's exactly when you did the damage. Note, I said YOU did the damage.....by turning the volume up too high sending your AVR into clipping, which in turn fried the voice coil. All it takes is one time. Bottom line, you've got nobody to blame but yourself. Live and learn.....keep the volume level down to a reasonable level.

royalty

Now I dont know if this is true or not but I have always felt that one should let the speaker break in for a reasonable amount of time before subjecting it to play at high volumes. Perhaps turning up the volume on a very new speaker (an entry level one at that) is not the wisest thing to do. It is unfortunate that this has happened to you, and I hope you can get the situation resolved for as little money as you can

[Deleted User]

Hello Tony,
Welcome to the Forum, I'm sorry you are having a problem. Send an email message to me at kswauger@polkaudio.com and I'll help out with a replacement driver for your speaker.
Most high level audio sources (CD player, DVD player, cassette decks and separate tuners) can supply sufficient output voltages to drive most receivers and separate pre-amp/power amp combination to full rated output when the receiver/pre-amp's volume control is near the "12:00 o'clock" setting. This is referring to a type of volume control that begins at the "7:00 o'clock" position and rotates to the "5:00 o'clock" position. If you took your CD player and connected it directly to the amplifier section of the Sony receiver, the signal coming from the CD player would be enough to reach the receiver's rated output. So, when the volume is near the "12:00 o'clock" position the full output of the CD player is going into the amplifier section, of the receiver, and resulting in full power; all the power the receiver can make at the rated amount of distortion.
When you turn the volume past this point the receiver can make additional power, however the content of this additional power becomes contaminated with fairly high amounts of destructive odd order harmonic distortion. Remember the receiver doesn't stop at the rated power, that is only an amount of power that results in acceptably low audible distortion. You can exceed this power output but each receiver company's products will result in different levels and content of the resultant distortion. Some receivers react more "gracefully" than others and produce a more gradual rising of distortion. Other companies, because of different design philosophies, will react more violently and produce large amounts of distortion with slight overdriving.
In any event, contact me and I'll help.
Regards, Ken, Polk Audio

NotaSuv

There ya go..........another happy ending to a post that should have never been had they called Super K first............a lesson to learn? you bet..
no matter where in the universe you are help is but a simple phone call away...even if it is your own fault :rolleyes:...............customer service unlike any other, this I can say for sure from what I have seen and experinced....This is one area where POLK really rocks..........................

vmaxer

NotaSuv wrote: »

There ya go..........another happy ending to a post that should have never been had they called Super K first............a lesson to learn? you bet..
no matter where in the universe you are help is but a simple phone call away...even if it is your own fault :rolleyes:...............customer service unlike any other, this I can say for sure from what I have seen and experinced....This is one area where POLK really rocks..........................

You are exactly right. They have helped me manny times. Ken is the best!!

AudioGenics

hmmmmm.......helped you many times.....

turn down the volume control or put in a smaller fuse !

just joking... LOL

thsmith

Ken is a wealth of information and support