How come my system is worse than Bose?

mr2sw21

Hi All,

well I am not a sale again and I am not doing marketing researching I am just new to this world. However, I bought a VM serious but some how I got a set TSI200 for my back surrounding from some stupid reason from Newegg. Any way no doubt they all are good speakers. But I have an old (may not be good at all) AV receiver Onkyo Ht-S5100 which I bought few years ago. So I just replaced all the speakers from that set up but still using that old AV receiver. Any way here is the background.

Now here is the meat. I just went to Bose Audio demo today, there sound system is way more dynamic than mine does. My back surround speakers TSI200 I can't here anything (almost) (mine is 7.1) all the sound just like coming from the front left and right and main in the center and the mode I use is Nur-surround which I tried all mode and that the most dynamic and best voice can come out from the receiver. But is not even clost to what Bose has. (VM30 front, VM20 surround and center and TSI200 backsurround and PSW110 sub with all 16GA wires)

I have few question now Since Bose is just one systerm no need extra amp no need anything almost jsut plug and play and I can see there wire is like less then 20GA may be but the sound the produce seem like a lot better than mine does and it is just like half the price I have paid (just for speakers itself). So why would any one go for something else in stead of Bose? Or is there any way I can set up mine better? Or I have to get another AV receiver so I can get better sound than Bose? I am so lost now I need some help? plus there speaker size is 1 tenth then my VM30.

Can any please let me know what is good to but something else than Bose? Please help me out here. Otherwise I feel like I spent a lots of money but my output is not what better than soemthing worth half of what I paid so far.

shack

Here is an excerpt from an article describing what happens at a Bose Demo....

The second breed of Bose displays is the 'expo room'. These are placed in stores that are deeply in cahoots with Bose Corp. These are stores like Fry's Electronics that lease out 2000 square feet of showroom floor for Bose to erect their own specially designed theater room and an attached catalog room. The thing with these show rooms and theaters is that they are very heavily sound treated with acoustic sound padding, and are acoustically engineered, calibrated rooms. The control room behind the theater is operated by a $30,000 rack of professional-grade preamplifiers, equalizers, DSP processors, and amplifiers. The technical prowess and build quality of this rack system compared to the Bose Lifestyle media console is a night and day difference. The subwoofer used is positioned in the optimal location to maximize spatial loading. The room dimensions are also calculated to reduce standing waves. The expense of running a room like this is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars range. Again this is a gross overstatement of the Acoustimass' true capabilities, presented in an impractical, unrealistic environment. I can almost fully guarantee you that the Acoustimass system that consumers buy will not sound the same as they do in this room, unless they build an identical room themselves. If you don't believe me, then on your next visit to this Bose demo kindly ask the Bose spokesperson to show you their control room. They will be reluctant and steadfast to do so. Some will deny such a control room exists. Simple, just trace the wires back to the source. I would also be interested in dissecting the speakers and subwoofer they use in this room to see if they matched that of the Acoustimass system that they sell to consumers. My guess is they are likely modified versions as well.

mr2sw21

Thanks Shack now I feel much better now if that is the case. But still me back surround speaker is really really low voice. Any way I hope once I reaplce the AV receiver I will have much better quality. Thanks again.

royalty

What are you saying when you say your back surround is really low voice...you really shouldnt have much voice coming out of there there at all.. I am not sure what your problem is...

mr2sw21

the problem is when I hear the demo in Bose they have a show dancing then there audiences giving their hands to the dancers and those sound came from the back surrounds but mine all the sound is from the front and the back surround there still low voice compare to Bose? You know what I mean? So that's why I am so confuse. Why my back surround is such low vooice but Bose has really strong voice and plus their high peach is a lot more crispy than my VM serious does, isn't that not suppose to be?

F1nut

You need to calibrate the output levels of your speakers.

McLoki

start with the basics.

all speakers set to small?
crossover set to 100? (you may get away with 80 but unsure on the vm's.

how is your dvd player connected to your avr?

what signal type is displayed on your receiver when a movie is playing? (pro-logic by any chance?)

have you calibrated your speakers?

more later but that's a start.

Michael

mr2sw21

McLoki wrote: »

start with the basics.

all speakers set to small?
crossover set to 100? (you may get away with 80 but unsure on the vm's.

how is your dvd player connected to your avr?

what signal type is displayed on your receiver when a movie is playing? (pro-logic by any chance?)

have you calibrated your speakers?

more later but that's a start.

Michael

DVD is using the componion and with coax

The second question I am not sure like I can choose what type of output? If that is the case I used the dobII movie mode with Audyssey thing on (no idea what that is)

have you calibrated your speakers? I am not sure how to do that. I jsut use the mic that come with the set up to do it.

thanks Michael. What is Crossover? The lower the better or the other way and plus about the sub woofer I have something call phase and the switch can either go for 0 or 180, what is that?

snow

F1nut wrote: »

You need to calibrate the output levels of your speakers.

As Jesse has said here this is most likely the biggest reason why you heard such a difference between what you heard in the Bose showroom and what you hear at home if you have the same DVD that they were using at the Bose store.

Most Receivers will allow you to adjust not only the speakers to small or large but the level on each speaker usally from -10 to +10 most soundtracks are designed so that most of the sound is coming from your front mains and center channel your side and back surrounds usally have little information sent to them thus the reason why the fronts are larger in size.

There are lots of reasons why you could be having the issues you are, Perhaps if you tell us what your settings and options are on each menu we can tell you which ones are optimal for you.



REGARDS SNOW

mr2sw21

ok I will try to copy it down adn then type it up

mr2sw21

ok here we go I just got them.

Crossover 40 to 200 (can you please let me know what that is what is crossover?)

SP distance

Level Cal -10 to +10

Audio Adjust

multiplex: main, Sub, M/S

monoinputch: L+R, L, R

Panorama: on, off

Dimension: -3 to +3

center with: 0 to 7

center image: 0 to 5

dolby ex: auto, manuel

LstnAngl: Middley, wide, narrow

SW Send: 0db to +15db

lastly

EQ: audyssey, manual, off

(all the manual I can't find there further option I can choose so I don't knwo what that is)

snow

mr2sw21 wrote: »

ok here we go I just got them.


SP distance

Level Cal -10 to +10

Audio AdjustCrossover 40 to 200 (can you please let me know what that is what is crossover?)


multiplex: main, Sub, M/S

monoinputch: L+R, L, R

Panorama: on, off

Dimension: -3 to +3

center with: 0 to 7

center image: 0 to 5

dolby ex: auto, manuel

LstnAngl: Middley, wide, narrow

SW Send: 0db to +15db

lastly

EQ: audyssey, manual, off

(all the manual I can't find there further option I can choose so I don't knwo what that is)

Ok I will do the best I can to help here it's been a while since I used a receiver or multi channel pre/pro I am a 2 channel kind of guy. Im sure others will chime in to help further.

To answer your first question (Crossover 40 to 200 (can you please let me know what that is what is crossover?) this is the range hz that you are sending to your subwoofer, if you set your mains to small then it should allow you to make this adjustment 100hz may be a good place to begin.

Level cal. once you click on this it should allow you to adjust all your speaker levels for example if you have your mains set at +1 you may need to adjust your side or rear surrounds to +5 if you want the same level of sound front and rear. This can be done by ear until you feel it is right for you.

sp distance. this stands for distance from where you sit to your speakers for example your front mains may be 10 feet away and your side surrounds may be 5 feet away if you cheat and say your side surround are 30 feet away and your mains are 6 feet away it will increase the sound level to your sidesurrounds. I recommend you dont do this.

I would turn Panorama off.

I would set your Dolby EX setting to automatic it will sense when a Dolby EX signal is being sent to it.

Your subwoofer SW Send signal. I would set at +5 and turn it up or down depending on whether you feel the bass is too much or too little.


Most of your other setting you can play with if you like after you get the levels you need for your speaker setup done.



REGARDS SNOW

mr2sw21

thanks snow now feels lot better

question about (LstnAngl: Middley, wide, narrow)
does that mean each speaker I can't feel any different on them.

At the sub woofer there a switch call phase and I can choose either 0 or 180. What is that?

Thanks so much

cnh

shack wrote: »

Here is an excerpt from an article describing what happens at a Bose Demo....

I've been in one of those collusive showrooms and kept looking around during the Demo because things JUST DIDN'T seem 'right', no Bose system I'd ever heard before the deep, dark, black secret Bose room Demo, EVER sounded like THAT! So this REALLY helps explain what was going on. I thought of looking around but they usher you in and out of there like you're standing in a Disney line in Orlando?

cnh

snow

mr2sw21 wrote: »

thanks snow now feels lot better

question about (LstnAngl: Middley, wide, narrow)
does that mean each speaker I can't feel any different on them.

At the sub woofer there a switch call phase and I can choose either 0 or 180. What is that?

Thanks so much

The listening angle setting (middle wide and narrow) allows for your main speakers to project an image that is either narrow in the middle or wide, you should hear a difference on each setting.

The subwoofer phase switch allows the subwoofer to either be in phase with the source signal, or 180 degrees out of phase.

Your welcome for any help I may have given you there are people here who are much more involved and knowlegeable in home theater then I am and hopefully they will chime in and help you out if needed.



REGARDS SNOW

mr2sw21

thank you again Snow.
My system now is totally different than one day ago and my feeling is a lot better than yesterday ^_^ I suddenly feel my system is finally awake now ahahahhaa. But I guess there still more tweak I need to play with it and make it the way I like.

mr2sw21

Well after playing around with the setup now I think I kind of wanna say my system is better than Bose or may be equal to it. Thanks so much Snow.

But I still wonder since Bose is cheaper than what we doing why no one wanna go for Bose? I just don't understand? Is it just custom is the reason?

mr2sw21

snow wrote: »

The subwoofer phase switch allows the subwoofer to either be in phase with the source signal, or 180 degrees out of phase.

REGARDS SNOW

Hey snow sorry man I still don't understand what that mean? can you let me know what will that do? Cause I swear no matter how I switch that nothing happen. Do I need better Amp in order to feel the different?

royalty

mr2sw21 wrote: »

Well after playing around with the setup now I think I kind of wanna say my system is better than Bose or may be equal to it. Thanks so much Snow.

But I still wonder since Bose is cheaper than what we doing why no one wanna go for Bose? I just don't understand? Is it just custom is the reason?

If you read what they posted up there earlier, it said that the BOSE setup that you most likely heard was setup by professionals using everything that would create the best sound. Be it the environment, or the power supply, these listening rooms are in essence false advertising. Therefore, if you were to go out and buy one of these BOSE systems that they showed you it would most definitely not sound a thing like that which you heard in the listening room.

I challenge you to look at the quality and materials that make up your current speakers and such and compare with the BOSE ones and it should get my point across.

shack

mr2sw21 wrote:

But I still wonder since Bose is cheaper than what we doing why no one wanna go for Bose? I just don't understand? Is it just custom is the reason?

Because what you heard was probably running on $30,000-$50,000 worth of professionally set up gear in a room designed specifically to maximize the speakers (even more $).

How the hell is that cheaper?

You are a Bose dream customer and exactly why they sell so much of that crap. And the bad part is we told you what is going on and you still think what you heard is what you will get in your home. YOU WON'T!

You probably are someone who needs to sell what you have and go get the Bose. It sounds like you won't be happy until you do. :rolleyes: Good luck.

comfortablycurt

Go to this link and read this article about Bose. It's kind of lengthy, but it goes into a lot of depth about why Bose speakers are really of poor quality, and explains in great detail why they sound so good in the dedicated demo rooms. As others have said, they use around 40,000 dollars worth of professional equipment to run these demos, and they're setup in a room that has been optimized to be used with those specific speakers. The rooms use very expensive room treatments, and are optimized to accentuate the critical areas of the frequency range that people tend to notice more. It's very misleading.

That is NOT what it's going to sound like in your living room.

Bose relies on the reputation of their name to sell their product. You see their name everywhere, so a lot of people just assume that they're the best. Open up almost any magazine in the world and there is going to be at least one Bose advertisement in it. There are commercials for the "revolutionary wave radio":rolleyes: on TV all the time. Anyone ever heard one of those? Sounds like crap...In the commercial they make it sound like you could replace even the best systems on this forum with this simple little Wave Radio. Yeah...right.

This is a lengthy read, but I'd highly suggest checking it out.

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html


edit-Here's a post I made the other day regarding my experiences with some "White Van Speakers", which were basically a knock off of the Bose Lifestyle systems, compared to an actual Bose Lifestyle system. The knockoff system came out on top.

I have a 5.1 set of "white van speakers". They're essentially a knock off of the Bose Lifestyle Speakers.

I paid 65 dollars for the whole setup. A few months later, one of my friends bought an actual Bose Lifestyle system...I forget what he paid...somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 dollars. We got it set up and listened to it for a while...

My 65 dollar setup of white van speakers sounded roughly the same as the 1500 dollar Bose setup...possibly even a little better on the low end. Though my friend didn't want to accept it at first, he eventually admitted that my 65 dollar white van speakers sounded better than his 1500 dollar Bose speakers.

So, what it comes down to, is if you want one of those teensy little cute Bose systems, just look for a guy in a white van. He can be found in the parking lot of places such as Best Buy or Fry's...outside of malls...any number of places.

Box
Of
****
Equipment

snow

mr2sw21 wrote: »

Hey snow sorry man I still don't understand what that mean? can you let me know what will that do? Cause I swear no matter how I switch that nothing happen. Do I need better Amp in order to feel the different?

No actually if there is no difference your fine.

Depending on the absolute phase of your main speakers and amplifier and the distances of the subwoofer and the main speakers from the listening position, the bass in the crossover region may be smoother if you reverse the subwoofer’s phase. Typically, though, phase is left at 0° for most applications.

While seated in your listening sweet spot, play music with bass content that is familiar to you and then have someone switch the 0/180 phase switch on the sub to 180°. This will let you determine if the bass sounds louder in your seating position. The more bass-heavy setting is where the output of the subwoofer and the main speakers are most in phase. Use whatever position (0/180) is louder at your seating location. However, if you do not notice any difference when changing the 0-180 setting, it only means there are no issues in your room and all is fine.



REGARDS SNOW

snow

mr2sw21 wrote: »

Well after playing around with the setup now I think I kind of wanna say my system is better than Bose or may be equal to it. Thanks so much Snow.

But I still wonder since Bose is cheaper than what we doing why no one wanna go for Bose? I just don't understand? Is it just custom is the reason?

Actually a lot of people go for bose, for several reasons, one is name recognition. Amar Bose is a marketing genius, irregardless of how anyone of us feel about his products he sells a lot of product because he spends millions on advertising, Bose is one of the most recognized names in the world.

His cube speaker systems sell because they are small and a lot of people would prefer a small all in one simple to setup system over huge speakers seperate components etc.

He has as mentioned earlier showrooms designed to make his systems sound wonderful and people buy into it.

If you were to look at the technical data you would discover that a good size portion of the audio spectrum is missing in his systems, he has done studies to find out what portion of the normal 20hz to 20khz spectrum that people most respond too and then enhances those portions but leaves out the balance of the spectrum. In essence you are getting cheated out of a large portion of the music, that is whe we as audiophiles prefer our full range speakers and seperate components.



REGARDS SNOW

gdb

I have heard both the wave radio, and the acoustic wave (my parents had both in their home). Yes, they are waaaay overpriced but.....if anyone can find a comparably sized unit by any other maker that sounds nearly as impressive, I'll kiss your butt, and give you an hour to gather a crowd to watch me do it !!:eek: Nobody forces anyone to buy anything, and if people with the means to pay Bose's prices, want their simple, slickly packaged products, who the frak cares? To each his own,and if they're unhappy with it, once home,all's they have to do is.... Return It ! I'd NEVER be seen dead in a Kia automobile, but don't feel that I need to disparage those that drive one, just as I would hope that the driver of a M.Benz,Jaguar etc. wouldn't feel the need while seeing me in a 2000 Bonneville either ! BTW,FYI I saw/heard an amazingly good sounding Bose Pro vert. array on the sidewalk in VA Beach last summer being used by a South American group called the Mystic Warriors. Their setup blew the doors off of the other misc. performers Peavys, EVs,JBLs etc. etc. etc. Lets not forget....a LOT of "hi end" audio folks (snobs/jerks), consider our beloved Polks to be garbage, regardless of their price!!:mad::rolleyes::eek::(:o:p;)

Enjoy some smooth Mystic Warriors on whichever speakers you're using:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxRJU_KEQQs&feature=related

shack

Unfortunately I’ve been forced to listen to a couple of "Wave" radios by some folks that have them in their office and think they are the best audio system ever assembled. They are ok at best. I have also been fortunate to listen to the Polk I-Sonic on several occasions and it is every bit as good... and...even BETTER IMO than the wave. Better bass, better soundstage...just an overall better sounding piece of audio gear than the Bose. I was prepared to not like the I-Sonic the first time because it was just a radio and just a small piece of gear. If I didn't already have a nice office rig, I would not hesitate to use the I-Sonic. I can't say that about a wave.

So gdb...you can kiss my **** in the figurative sense and I'll let you perform your public display on someone else for those that enjoy that sort of thing.

gdb

Shack, I appreciate your letting me off the figurative hook! I'm not familiar with the Polk unit you mentioned, I'll have to search one out to give a listen. I really don't care about any compact audio gear, but I've always thought that the Bose stuff was pretty good compared to Sony, Pannie, etc. It's no real surprise that Polk would surpass the waves! Lesson learned!:o:)

SolidSqual

Bose is a rip-off for the price, but I had a Lifestyle 21 in my bedroom when I lived at home with my parents. The room was something like 8X10. The sound was great! Of course, those were my young untrained ears. I can't compare now. But, I've heard Polk systems like the Monitors that could never compete with the Bose Lifestyle 21. Of course, for the price of the Lifestyle 21, you could put together a bitchin' Rti or even LSi team of speakers and just blow it the eff outta the water.

snow

Proton and Cambridge audio both used too not sure if they still do make radios that would wipe the floor with a Bose.



REGARDS SNOW

ahardy17

did you know that the founder/president of Bose is on the lust of the top 50 wealthiest Bostonians? The guy's done alright for himself

comfortablycurt

ahardy17 wrote: »

did you know that the founder/president of Bose is on the lust of the top 50 wealthiest Bostonians? The guy's done alright for himself

Well...when you have business practices as sleazy as Amar Bose you tend to make a lot of money. Charging ridiculous prices for a vastly inferior product is definitely a way to make a few bucks.

Add their ridiculous advertising campaign into the equation and...yeah...I can see it.

Toolfan66

Better
Off
Selling
Everything

And getting something Better.:p