Cary Cinema 11a vs. B&K Ref 70

mantis

polkatese wrote: »

I think "Junk" is a rather strong word and I don't believe Mantis really meant it that way. He was the one who put me into B&K back in 2003, and he was intimately familiar with B&K from his prior work.

If I can get all the feature of my REF50S2 plus the new format, I'll be a happy man to get another REF processor.

Maybe "junk" is a strong term but I still work with B&K and thats how I feel about the Ref 70. I can go detail to detail why I feel the way that I do. You could search this forum and read about what I have said or I could type some things out. So being I suggested you go B&K then , I will give you my opinion why you should not go with it this time around.

Trust me , It hurts me to type these words about a company that I have loved for so many years. I have loved them since 2000 when I was introduced to such a powerful line of awesome products. I also watched a avr307 be born. I was in Buffalo NY and trained on B&K for 2 days.

So let me start when what they "took away" from the ref 50 series. They actually started at the s2 model.

1) Zone 2. Ok why take it away. Ok I know they sell multiroom products but there has been so many jobs where I had a pair of speakers on a deck and just needed to power them and have something different playing then the main zone or have the main zone off. I am a custom Installer and I have very clear needs. My customers have clear needs I need to meet. And for years the B7K never once let me down. 101, 202 , 307 and the avr507.

2) THX . Alright is it totally needed? Maybe. Some rooms are bright sounding and need re eq. THX provides a nice way to help with some problems that come up in many many rooms. Being a hobbiest(is that a word??) is much different then being a custom Installer. Many people who don't understand what THX stands for like to clown it, waste of money and there gear without it is better then gear with it. What ever I say, go learn something. But I enjoyed the abilities of THX certified products and what they offer us so we can offer it to our customers.

So thats what they took away off hand, but they sure didn't add much.
1) 6 HDMI inputs. This is totally cool. For most systems , 6 HDMI inputs will run everything most will ever need. I love this.
2) No internal processing. Why? All other receivers have it. Even Anthem has it now. NAD has it now, why not B&K? They talked about a few weeks away months ago. Something is happening over there with offering this upgrade and why was it not install on release date. I never got a straight answer. I got different answers from everyone I talked to. So I'm not going to list any of what I have heard out of sheer respect for B&K(what little I have left).
3) Popping and clicking... can we just get a damn muting circuit. Every single B&K I have ever Installed has this very problem. Never heard of a firmware fixing what is not there which is a muting circuit. If this is a fix over Firmware, I want proof. I want to see/ hear it for myself. It's so damn annoying to listen to. I used to be a purest but B&K goes to far. You are at there expense.

Now some other things in the field I have noticed. HDMI drops for no reason when switched. Blu ray players not passing, can go straight to the display but put the B&K in the mix and all kinds of trouble has been caused. Again I will not go deep into detail here. Every system is different. Longer runs of HDMI with Cat 5 could be also a problem but they seem to work ok with other products. This is a mixed cause so I will not place it on the B&K alone.

No auto room correction. So they still have the Notch filters which I have loved from the beginning. This is a nice touch but outdated now. If they have a full bandwidth correction and I have to manually do it per channel, I'm very cool with that. I can sit there and fix most room problems in room where room treatments are out of the question. Essentially room treatments is the be all end all of fixing ones acoustic problems but Auto calibration or even a manual calibration is essential to ones overall experience with ones system. I could teach each and every one of you how important ones room is to the system. It can make or break a system. Especially if a system is not spec'd for the room it is going in. People get all caught up in brand names and certain kinds of speakers, I have to have this and that to be proud of my system and not consider whats really important to the overall experience in the end. It took me many years to learn this and up until a few years ago, I will on the other side of the fence. I have learned from so many system designers the correct way to spec a system. How to make the over all system more important then it's pieces. But thats a totally another conversation we can have .

B&K does some other stupid stuff if you need to use a composite or s video connection. Since they have no internal Ipod control( not a deal breaker just a nail in the coffin afterwards) you have to steal one of the very awesome 6 components inputs and use that as a composite or S video input with S being a y adapter. Stupid but i guess I kinda wished for a removal of S a long time ago. be careful what you wish for as you just might get it then need it. So back to the Ipod, Svideo over a DLO dock works best. Now with a **** **** Y adapter and I lose a Component input. I don't think I will ever use all that the ref 70 offers but I still have to give to get, that sucks.

There is a internal radio, sucks how it works, sucked back then and still sucks today. I hate the way it works. If you ever owned a B&K receiver or preamp , you already know what I'm talking about. Again not a del breaker but a nail afterwards.

No XM or Sirius , ok who really uses them? Personally I dropped Xm after having it. But thats just me. Many of my customers have and love both.B&K you are buying a external tuner. Deal breaker??? You already know. Remember I have to use the B&k for not just myself but for my customers who mean a lot to me. If you where my customer, you would know I care about every single system I install no matter how much it costs. Entry to extreme. They all mean a lot to me and I want to give my customers and my self the best system I can for the money.

I could go on and on but I will stop here. I know one guy spoke up and said he likes his B&K ref70 and it suits him just fine. I say great man and I wish you only luck. But if you came to me I would give you all kinds of reasons why not to go with it and there are better choices out there.

Remember when I spec a preamp or anything for anyone, my personal interests do not play into effect. My needs could be very different then lets say all of you. I firmly believe there are better choice out there then the B&K ref 70 or the avr707. I can only help you decide but in the end I can only offer my advise. Agree or not.

Polkatese, you can call me anytime Bro. I would love to help you with your next preamp purchase. You and I have history with your system. From the B&K, the Rel, Rotel and others. Pm me and I will give you my cell. And or our joint vernture can be on here. I'm sure others could benefit from our next journey.

Good luck Brother,

Dan

polkatese

Dan, Thanks for the extensive write-up on REF70 downside. I've been thrilled with my REF50, low maintenance, do music great, do HT great, notch filter, yada yada yada. So, it is heartbreaking that my journey with B&K might come to an end. I consider myself a pretty loyal fan of B&K, but you are right, for a product that cost that much, it has to be something that worthwhile to own. Anthem is the next level fo' sho', with those kind of price tag, I am afraid a Statement D2 is out of reach. AVM50 is a distinct possibility. Primare is the other brand that I am eyeing for.

You know, back in 2003-2004, spending that kind of money feel OK, this year I am not so sure. Thanks to where we are at now, the guilt trip is definitely stronger and perhaps not the year to indulge on gear. I don't know. Do you guys carry Anthem, Dan?

Thanks for the offer btw, I will definitely take advantage of your offer, I know that you've been always supportive to this never ending upgrade sickness...:)

mantis

polkatese ,
Yes we carry Anthem. it would be a pretty nice upgrade for you. Expensive is the only problem and why I didn't buy one myself.

If you need more options, I can provide them for you. Give me a list of your exact needs out of your next preamp and hopefully I can help.

Dan

polkatese

Dan, I spoke to my dealer about REF70 this morning. He brought up something that I was completely missed: REF70 do everything in digital domain, so there is NO analog pass through. So, connecting analog input for SACD (Philip modded tube output) will be converted to digital, and converted back to analog (for output). He mentioned that it will alter and take away its analog quality (i.e. warm, laid back, etc.) However, he said that REF70 compared to REF50 is like taking the veil off the speakers: clean, detailed, and clear (which I would imagine be more like analytical sounding). Can you comment on this?