Cary Cinema 11a vs. B&K Ref 70

polkatese
polkatese Posts: 6,767
edited July 2009 in Electronics
Anyone has tried both?

I like the fact that Cary pretty much removed all the Video, S-Video, Component inputs, and stick only with HDMIs 1.3. Look very clean, less clutter, and all balanced input. And it also does DTS-MA, which Ref 70 is still struggling with.

Thoughts?
I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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  • bigred7078
    bigred7078 Posts: 477
    edited April 2009
    oh god....neither...both these units have been having isses like crazy, and to me thats completely unacceptable for the price these puppies cost.
    Pro-ject RM-9.1 w/ Grado Sonata 1 -> USP-1 -> RPA-1 -> Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands
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  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2009
    Gotcha, for some reason or another, Cary's owners on AVS said that most of the issues have been remedied, but no way to prove that....

    thanks for your feedback.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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  • danz1906
    danz1906 Posts: 5,144
    edited April 2009
    I would think that the Cary11a would be better on Music.
    Linn AV5140 fronts
    Linn AV5120 Center
    Linn AV5140 Rears
    M&K MX-70 Sub for Music
    Odyssey Mono-Blocs
    SVS Ultra-13 Gloss Black:D
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  • Emlyn
    Emlyn Posts: 4,719
    edited April 2009
    I don't see much reason to buy an expensive product for home theater use if it only has two HDMI inputs.
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  • Rocco1
    Rocco1 Posts: 190
    edited April 2009
    Emlyn wrote: »
    I don't see much reason to buy an expensive product for home theater use if it only has two HDMI inputs.

    DIDO. no room for expansion = no bueno
    Man Cave: 7.1
    -PS Audio Power Plant Premier
    -PS Audio Power backup
    -Onkyo Pre/Pro> 2 Adcom555se bridged and bi-wired> RTi A9s
    > Adcom GFA 7605> CSi A6 center, RTi A3s side rears, FXi A6s rears
    >Sub = MK Audio 10'
    -PS3
    -Onkyo 5 disc cd player
    -Directv
    -Samsung 59' plasma flanked by 2 Samsung 43' plasma's
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  • bigred7078
    bigred7078 Posts: 477
    edited April 2009
    polkatese wrote: »
    Gotcha, for some reason or another, Cary's owners on AVS said that most of the issues have been remedied, but no way to prove that....

    thanks for your feedback.

    Most of the major issues have been fixed, but a horrible delay is still present with the audio. There is also a few other smaller problems.

    There are lots of choices out there, keep looking :)
    Pro-ject RM-9.1 w/ Grado Sonata 1 -> USP-1 -> RPA-1 -> Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands
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  • olilugo
    olilugo Posts: 405
    edited April 2009
    I hate to say but new cary and sunfire. came short to support the new technologies.
    from the picture you have above I notice that the cary only has 2 hdmi in, 1 hdmi out.
    I realize some people will use the balance in, but the average pre-pro at this price range should have 5 hdmi-in and 2 hdmi-out.
    If you see the new sunfire pre-pro they also have 2 hdmi-in 1hdmi-out.
    Not that I think hdmi is the future, however it is today's technology and they should support it better than the big mfg. after all they are asking for 2 to 3 times the money of the big mfg.
    Not trying to flare anyone, just my humble opinion.
    I would say if B&K finally fixes all the problems I think they will have a good product in their hands. I still think they are way to expensive but for the people that have the money, I think they would be happy with their purchase.
    Current HT setup
    Mains: B&W 804s
    Center: Polk CSi5
    Surround: Polk FXi3
    Sub: Velodyne DLS-3750R
    Receiver: Pioneer SC-07
    Amplifier: Sunfire TGA5200
    TV: Sony KDS60A2020
    DBP: Sony DBP-S350
    CDP: Pioneer DV-48AV
    Interconnect cables: SignalCable analog II
    speaker cables: SignalCable Ultra Speaker Cables Bi-wire
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,072
    edited April 2009
    Emlyn wrote: »
    I don't see much reason to buy an expensive product for home theater use if it only has two HDMI inputs.

    How many do you need??
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • tcrossma
    tcrossma Posts: 1,301
    edited April 2009
    tonyb wrote: »
    How many do you need??

    DVD, Cable Box, and XBox would be my three. I don't mind using Component instead of HDMI, but that device doesn't have that option...

    I'd agree that 2 inputs are too few.
    Speakers: Polk LSi15
    Pre: Adcom GFP-750 with HT Bypass
    Amp: Pass Labs X-150
    CD/DVD Player: Classe CDP-10
    Interconnects: MIT Shortgun S3 Pro XLR
    Speaker cables: MIT MH-750 bi-wire
    TT:Micro Seiki DD-35
    Cartridge:Denon DL-160
    Phono Pre:PS Audio GCPH
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  • okiepolkie
    okiepolkie Posts: 2,258
    edited April 2009
    I started using the Primare SP32 and SPA22 instead of the B&K in my larger scale home theaters. It is a card based design, and will offer a video card this spring with more hdmi inputs and a built in scaler.

    http://www.primare.net/00002/00042/00255/default.asp

    As far as sound quality, I would put it a step above the B&K, and probably on par with the Cary.
    Tschüss
    Zach
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  • danz1906
    danz1906 Posts: 5,144
    edited April 2009
    Primare is Good-Stuff, I have a Primare Pre-30 2ch pre-amp and I love it.
    If you need more HDMI inputs try the Integra 9.8 or 9.9 its an awesome
    processor for a good price:D

    http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1244333513&/NEW-Integra-9.8-Surround-Proce
    Linn AV5140 fronts
    Linn AV5120 Center
    Linn AV5140 Rears
    M&K MX-70 Sub for Music
    Odyssey Mono-Blocs
    SVS Ultra-13 Gloss Black:D
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  • bigred7078
    bigred7078 Posts: 477
    edited April 2009
    +1 for Primare gear, its definately good quality stuff.

    But im not sure about their new processor, the idea of being able to change out card slots for video and what not is pretty cool, but i imagine very expensive. What chipset does primare offer? And what kind of price point does the SP32 go for?
    Pro-ject RM-9.1 w/ Grado Sonata 1 -> USP-1 -> RPA-1 -> Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands
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  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2009
    Zach, are you a dealer for Primare? how much is the Processor run (MSRP)? Thanks...
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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  • okiepolkie
    okiepolkie Posts: 2,258
    edited April 2009
    I am a Primare dealer. MSRP is on par with the B&K, and the Primare SPA22 and SPA32 are $4999 right now. And if someone didn't already have a high quality amp, the 22 has a new amplifier section that sounds amazing in 2 channel, and runs relatively cool for the power ratings. One of the issues with previous generations of Primare amplification is/was the heat.

    As far as the actual processor, I would have to check on that. I don't see it in the preliminary specs I got back in November, but I've got a hard copy around here somewhere that has the updated info.
    Tschüss
    Zach
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  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2009
    Thanks Zach. I know Primare is a solid line. When I bought my SF Cremona, Sumiko was speaking very highly of Primare.

    I'll take it offline with you. Thanks for the info on your PM.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited April 2009
    polkatese wrote: »
    Anyone has tried both?

    I like the fact that Cary pretty much removed all the Video, S-Video, Component inputs, and stick only with HDMIs 1.3. Look very clean, less clutter, and all balanced input. And it also does DTS-MA, which Ref 70 is still struggling with.

    Thoughts?

    Great, they removed all the S-Video and Component inputs... What is up with only TWO HDMI and 8 digital audio (7 TOSlink) inputs?

    That is baffling to me.

    Check out (the yet unreleased) Emotiva UMC-1. No headphone jack :(

    3444066713_24eb1909f9_o.png
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  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2009
    balanced input and output are a must have for me. S-Video has no value, component I can live without. So, Cary is doing ok in my book.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,419
    edited April 2009
    polkatese wrote: »
    balanced input and output are a must have for me. S-Video has no value, component I can live without. So, Cary is doing ok in my book.

    Unless you have a problem, Balanced is not really going to do a lot for yeah. yeah it has a extra gain stage and can run a amp with higher output voltage, yes you are shielded much better then single ended, yes there is little to no difference in sound quality with balanced, all good qualities to have unless your in the market to buy a new preamp today.

    Ok so I'm probably thinking you know I have just walked this path. So I will give you an option of a preamp that will suit anyones needs except maybe there bank account. Welcome to the world of Anthem. The AVM50 or the D2V2 has everything anyone could and would want for a theater and a double duty 2 channel, multichannel music. You pay out your rear end but you will have the be all end all in preamps today. Nothing in my opinion is a better piece.

    Now I could have gone this route but I thought about it, and some more, then more on the week end , some during the day and I came up with one conclusion, Technology moves very fast today, yes Anthem is upgradabe but you wait for it, and wait some more.

    I suggest you check out the Sc-07 and use it as a preamp. It has everything you need, high end 2 channel DAC's in Wolfson, THX ULTRA 2 plus , Ipod direct connect over USB full digital processing, Phase control, need I go on?

    Dude talk to me, tell my why you want a new preamp, dude also just forget about the B&K, it's junk. It sounds awesome but has mad problems and the pop and clicking , yeah your back with that. They can't figure out how to make a muting circuit without messing up tone quality. I would own it if they where to just add to the ref50 as it was a bad **** piece. THX certified, added room correction, added internal processing, left zone 2 and maybe added zone 3 and I would be all over it. O and yeah give me a damn muting circuit. As good as b&K sounds, I can't see a muting circuit hurting it.

    So consider the unthinkable and using a receiver as a pre. Unless your into the Integra/Onkyo lines, which on paper make a stupid nice preamp , you got to get the Sc-07. It's a monster.

    Dan
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited April 2009
    I recently heard a Anthem/Paradigm setup and I thought it left a lot to be desired. IMO, there is no best of both worlds.

    Get an Onkyo/Integra processor and a 2 channel preamp with HT Bypass and be done with it. This will also allow you to upgrade either setup at will.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2009
    mantis wrote: »
    Dude talk to me, tell my why you want a new preamp, dude also just forget about the B&K, it's junk. It sounds awesome but has mad problems and the pop and clicking , yeah your back with that. They can't figure out how to make a muting circuit without messing up tone quality. I would own it if they where to just add to the ref50 as it was a bad **** piece. THX certified, added room correction, added internal processing, left zone 2 and maybe added zone 3 and I would be all over it. O and yeah give me a damn muting circuit. As good as b&K sounds, I can't see a muting circuit hurting it.

    So consider the unthinkable and using a receiver as a pre. Unless your into the Integra/Onkyo lines, which on paper make a stupid nice preamp , you got to get the Sc-07. It's a monster.

    Dan

    Dan, I really have no complain with my REF50S2 other than it is getting outdated, and thought about the upgrade to the next level of DTS-MA, etc. and considering that it is a 5 years old Processor by now. 2 Channel is what I am hoping to also improved, and MIT S2 sometimes after that, to complete the cycle.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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  • bigred7078
    bigred7078 Posts: 477
    edited April 2009
    mantis wrote: »
    So consider the unthinkable and using a receiver as a pre. Unless your into the Integra/Onkyo lines, which on paper make a stupid nice preamp , you got to get the Sc-07. It's a monster.

    Dan

    The only thing that makes it not the "bomb" for HT is the simple fact that it has no freakin on screen volume overlay!!! grrrr. If it had that, then in fact it would be...the balls :cool:

    +1 for the Anthem suggestios as well. But as was stated, mucho expensivo.
    Pro-ject RM-9.1 w/ Grado Sonata 1 -> USP-1 -> RPA-1 -> Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited April 2009
    The Outlaw Audio 990 is another pre-amp to take a look at (no HD audio CODEC support, the 997 will however):

    990-back-lg.jpg
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited April 2009
    AVSforum has a thread on a bunch of Pre-Pro's. The Cary is in the list.
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  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2009
    the outlaw has no HDMI but 2 inputs of DVI? interesting approach...
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,419
    edited April 2009
    polkatese wrote: »
    Dan, I really have no complain with my REF50S2 other than it is getting outdated, and thought about the upgrade to the next level of DTS-MA, etc. and considering that it is a 5 years old Processor by now. 2 Channel is what I am hoping to also improved, and MIT S2 sometimes after that, to complete the cycle.

    2 channel performance is not going to get better then what the ref50 offers. You can argue the Athem D2 is better but in overall sound quality it's close.

    According to your needs bro, I don't see any other preamp out there thats going to do what you want. So Check out the Anthem D2v2. It's the best of all worlds.

    Dan
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited April 2009
    polkatese wrote: »
    the outlaw has no HDMI but 2 inputs of DVI? interesting approach...

    Outlaw has the 997 coming which will freshen up their pre/pro line with HDMI.
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  • gmmosh
    gmmosh Posts: 15
    edited April 2009
    mantis wrote: »
    Unless you have a problem, Balanced is not really going to do a lot for yeah. yeah it has a extra gain stage and can run a amp with higher output voltage, yes you are shielded much better then single ended, yes there is little to no difference in sound quality with balanced, all good qualities to have unless your in the market to buy a new preamp today.

    Ok so I'm probably thinking you know I have just walked this path. So I will give you an option of a preamp that will suit anyones needs except maybe there bank account. Welcome to the world of Anthem. The AVM50 or the D2V2 has everything anyone could and would want for a theater and a double duty 2 channel, multichannel music. You pay out your rear end but you will have the be all end all in preamps today. Nothing in my opinion is a better piece.

    Now I could have gone this route but I thought about it, and some more, then more on the week end , some during the day and I came up with one conclusion, Technology moves very fast today, yes Anthem is upgradabe but you wait for it, and wait some more.

    I suggest you check out the Sc-07 and use it as a preamp. It has everything you need, high end 2 channel DAC's in Wolfson, THX ULTRA 2 plus , Ipod direct connect over USB full digital processing, Phase control, need I go on?

    Dude talk to me, tell my why you want a new preamp, dude also just forget about the B&K, it's junk. It sounds awesome but has mad problems and the pop and clicking , yeah your back with that. They can't figure out how to make a muting circuit without messing up tone quality. I would own it if they where to just add to the ref50 as it was a bad **** piece. THX certified, added room correction, added internal processing, left zone 2 and maybe added zone 3 and I would be all over it. O and yeah give me a damn muting circuit. As good as b&K sounds, I can't see a muting circuit hurting it.

    So consider the unthinkable and using a receiver as a pre. Unless your into the Integra/Onkyo lines, which on paper make a stupid nice preamp , you got to get the Sc-07. It's a monster.

    Dan

    I have to disagree with Mantis. He is right in that the Ref 70 currently does not decode the HD audio formats and that it doesn't have room correction, but I can by no means consider it junk. That is a pretty broad term.

    I have been running a Ref 70 since January and it has been basically trouble free. I have had none of the pops and clicking that is being referred to. I believe that issue was fixed with one of the early FW upgrades. I am running the latest FW 1.05.

    My only problem is a coloring issue when streaming H.264 videos from my Xbox 360 (use it as a media extender) and passing it through the Ref 70 using HDMI. B&K is aware of the problem and is researching. Not sure if it is a specific HDMI issue with my TV or not. Haven't been able to try the Ref 70 with another TV.

    Otherwise he is right, the sound is amazing. I am very happy with my Ref 70 and would at least recommend people take a look at it.

    HD audio decoding should be here by this summer (free upgrade to existing Ref 70 owners) and B&K is suppose to be working on room correction for the Ref 70.

    Just my 2 cents. :)
    HT Setup
    Samsung - HL-61A750 61" LED DLP
    Samsung - BD-P2550 Blu-Ray Player
    B&K Reference 70 Pre/Pro
    B&K Reference 200.7 Amp
    Polk Audio - Lsi9 (Left & Right)
    Polk Audio - LsiC (Center)
    Polk Audio - Lsi7 (Left & Right Surrounds)
    Polk Audio - Lsi7 (Rear Surrounds)
    Polk Audio - PSW1000 (2 Subwoofers)
    XBox 360 with HD-DVD Add-On
    Harmony 880 Universal Remote
    Panamax MAX 5400-EX Conditioner/Surge Protector
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  • bigred7078
    bigred7078 Posts: 477
    edited April 2009
    ^but why pay big $$$ for a product that is not even complete???
    Pro-ject RM-9.1 w/ Grado Sonata 1 -> USP-1 -> RPA-1 -> Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands
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  • gmmosh
    gmmosh Posts: 15
    edited April 2009
    bigred7078 wrote: »
    ^but why pay big $$$ for a product that is not even complete???

    That is the question and only the individual who is looking to buy a pre/pro can answer. Does the sound quality trump the missing features and how does B&K compare to other gear? Will the Ref 70 go up in price when the features are added? For me personally, the B&K was the right choice and I think it is worth every penny.

    One of the main points I was trying to make was that, in my opinion, the Ref 70 is not junk. Sure some bad units might go out and/or the early firmware may have been buggy, but I am not seeing that to be the case anymore. There appears to be no more problems with the Ref 70 than there are with the other Pre/Pro's that I have been following in the forums.
    HT Setup
    Samsung - HL-61A750 61" LED DLP
    Samsung - BD-P2550 Blu-Ray Player
    B&K Reference 70 Pre/Pro
    B&K Reference 200.7 Amp
    Polk Audio - Lsi9 (Left & Right)
    Polk Audio - LsiC (Center)
    Polk Audio - Lsi7 (Left & Right Surrounds)
    Polk Audio - Lsi7 (Rear Surrounds)
    Polk Audio - PSW1000 (2 Subwoofers)
    XBox 360 with HD-DVD Add-On
    Harmony 880 Universal Remote
    Panamax MAX 5400-EX Conditioner/Surge Protector
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  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited April 2009
    I think "Junk" is a rather strong word and I don't believe Mantis really meant it that way. He was the one who put me into B&K back in 2003, and he was intimately familiar with B&K from his prior work.

    If I can get all the feature of my REF50S2 plus the new format, I'll be a happy man to get another REF processor.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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