How to protect our flea market sales guidelines, Ideas anyone?

Pauly

dorokusai wrote: »

Between Russman and myself I'm pretty positive that we've sold the most items in the FM(360+). I've had zero problems. The rules may need to be tweaked but don't expect sweeping changes. The feedback system functions here and simple common sense sure goes a long way. Sometimes things happen that are beyond both or one parties control...hey, it happens, work it out and move on.

YMMV.

So can we dub you guys the FM Whores? :D

dorokusai

Absolutely.

George Grand

What could be done to make the Flea Market better huh?

This entire affair is being incredibly blown out of proportion by two individuals.

Kex

Pauly wrote: »

So can we dub you guys the FM Whores? :D

Well ... especially doro, I should think: he did, after all, buy a d!ldo from Justin on the FM, so he really must be a FM **** ... :eek:! I think that prior to the sale, Justin was only using it as a stick shift ornament in his car, so nothing fishy going on in that regard ... I think and/or hope ... .

Pauly

Kex wrote: »

Well ... especially doro, I should think: he did, after all, buy a d!ldo from Justin on the FM, so he really must be a FM **** ... :eek:! I think that prior to the sale, Justin was only using it as a stick shift ornament in his car, so nothing fishy going on in that regard ... I think and/or hope ... .

bwhahahahahaha

comfortablycurt

+1 on common sense. I've only had a few transactions in the flea market here...but I've always felt very confident about it. I don't think anything really needs to be changed in it.

metal83 wrote: »

Do you mind if I ask why? Just curious.
I haven't been using PayPal very long but I've had no problems with it yet.

I don't/won't use paypal either. There are extra costs incurred in it, and I don't like the concept of trying to do away with real cash. If somebody doesn't want to accept my personal check, or certified postal money order, then I don't need to do business with them.

daboyz

I don't/won't use paypal either. There are extra costs incurred in it, and I don't like the concept of trying to do away with real cash. If somebody doesn't want to accept my personal check, or certified postal money order, then I don't need to do business with them.[/QUOTE]

Curt, I've met you and i wouldn't touch a check from you,we're on a strict cash basis.;):D

I have bought and sold a boat load here and I must go along with the common sense crowd. My feeling is you treat the other person as if it were yourself and all will go well. No changes need to be made at all.

cfrizz

Another one here who doesn't have any interest in using PP. A Postal MO is good enough & if someone ripped me off, I just let them go after the person. Ted you're a Fed LEO, right?

How badly can the USPS jack you up when you get caught?

dorokusai

The USPS has their own PoPo and you're in Felony areas when you wrangle with them.

metal83

shack wrote: »

It is another useless middleman in the process that affords me no protection as buyer. I can pay for something with a check, cash or credit card. If the seller is not comfortable with that, they don't have to do business with me. I don't need or want paypal.

comfortablycurt wrote: »

I don't/won't use paypal either. There are extra costs incurred in it, and I don't like the concept of trying to do away with real cash. If somebody doesn't want to accept my personal check, or certified postal money order, then I don't need to do business with them.

To each his own I guess. I just personally find it easier and quicker using PayPal when dealing with someone on the internet. I rather use/accept cash obviously if the buyer/seller is local, or I will use my cash, or Debit/Credit card when buying from an actual store. But when buying and selling to someone I have never met on the internet, PayPal works great, and makes me feel better since payment is instant.

And I've never been charged using PayPal to buy something. But yeah, it's about a 3% charge if someone sends me money. But you can also accept money on PayPal for free, if you stay a basic (non premier) member and you don't accept over $500 a month.

Anyway, this is just my opinion of PayPal so far in the short time I have been using it.
Like I said, to his own.

shack

metal83 wrote:

Like I said, to his own.

Like I said. Paypal sucks. It's of no value to me and I don't use it.

BTW...You sound like a paypal commercial....

heiney9

metal83 wrote: »

To each his own I guess. I just personally find it easier and quicker using PayPal when dealing with someone on the internet. I rather use/accept cash obviously if the buyer/seller is local, or I will use my cash, or Debit/Credit card when buying from an actual store. But when buying and selling to someone I have never met on the internet, PayPal works great, and makes me feel better since payment is instant.

And I've never been charged using PayPal to buy something. But yeah, it's about a 3% charge if someone sends me money. But you can also accept money on PayPal for free, if you stay a basic (non premier) member and you don't accept over $500 a month.

Anyway, this is just my opinion of PayPal so far in the short time I have been using it.
Like I said, to his own.

You do realize outside of e-bay using PayPal has a very narrow and limited protection policy? Have you ever read the user agreements? Any exchange outside an e-bay deal is limited to what PayPal can recover from the person's available balance in their actual PayPal account. A person can transfer the funds out immediately and send you nothing or send you crap and you will have no recourse thru PayPal. That makes you feel safe dealing w/strangers?

I use it for convenience but I also realize there is quite a bit of risk involved dealing with strangers over the internet and as long as I'm willing to assume the risk...........I don't worry.

H9

hil

I'm new and don't really have a right to inject comment but another group I am part of sometimes uses a highly respected member of the group as a disinterested party. That person holds the money order until the buyer receives the item. Once received the buyer tells the "respected member" to go ahead and forward the money order to the seller. It makes some people fell a little safer.
Please excuse me if this idea was mentioned and I missed seeing it.

nooshinjohn

a simple solution to some of what has been going on would be to raise the sell limit to say 50 posts as on the Carver forum, which then opens up all access to the buyers/sellers marketplace. Until then they have a small sellers page that newbs can go to... as for newbs soliciting members with their crap outside of accepted channels, there should be instant banning from the forum for no less than 60 days...

WilliamM2

I never carry more than $20-$30 on me. I use my credit card for all purchases, online or off. I do use PayPal if the seller can't accept CC's directly, but I always fund it with my credit card, so I have the usual protection Visa offers. Paypal themselves are worthless for protection, even on ebay.

metal83

shack wrote: »

Like I said. Paypal sucks. It's of no value to me and I don't use it.

Yeah, I got that the first time you said it, thanks.
I was simply giving my impression of it so far.

heiney9 wrote: »

You do realize outside of e-bay using PayPal has a very narrow and limited protection policy? Have you ever read the user agreements? Any exchange outside an e-bay deal is limited to what PayPal can recover from the person's available balance in their actual PayPal account. A person can transfer the funds out immediately and send you nothing or send you crap and you will have no recourse thru PayPal. That makes you feel safe dealing w/strangers?

I use it for convenience but I also realize there is quite a bit of risk involved dealing with strangers over the internet and as long as I'm willing to assume the risk...........I don't worry.

H9

Yes I have read the user agreement.
Most of my PayPal purchases have been on ebay, I think I have only used it 2 or 3 times so far to buy something somewhere other than ebay. And I don't actually put money on my PayPal account, I use my credit card through them.

And yes, PayPal makes me feel safer when dealing with strangers over the internet, but only when i'm the one receiving the money of course. When I am the one sending money, I am aware of the risks. But like you, I use it for it's convenience factor, and i'm willing to accept those risks when I use it.




I didn't realize so many people didn't care much for PayPal, learn something new everyday I guess. :cool:

mmadden28

I believe the FM system is working fine here at Club Polk. I've had no problems. There might be room for improvement in some other ways, but I think that's really a function of the vBulletin application, not rules so much.

I can only think of a few things that could use a tweaking...if for nothing else to cut down on the gray areas that seem to cause so much malcontent and strife on this board.
Perhaps make the the rules more clear for those without common sense. Such as preventing sly posters from skirting the rules, resulting in an uproar. Like where a new member might try to post a disguised sale as a response to a WTB thread or something and then claim no rules were broken (whether knowingly or not).

Perhaps a rule to clear up how and where a person (including a new member) is allowed to post a link to an ext. sale (such as eBay, Audiogon, other forums), and not posting ext sales in the FS thread.
Perhaps clearer Rules of Engagement in both the FS and WTB sections.

So many new members complain about the inability to post a sale until they have 25 posts, maybe perhaps removing that restriction ( I know a hot topic-no need to discuss here), but in its place perhaps somehow make the new poster's thread thread show up with a banner or obvious flag to show that the seller is new to the forum or something so extra caution is warranted (of course that may piss some off).
Or maybe a separate section for new members to post FS until they have at least one (or more) successful transactions-kinda a probation thing.
New members can post things for sale, established members can feel safer-..

I don't think there should be any rules in place to govern how payment or shipping, etc should occur. That should be left to the seller and buyer to handle in the terms they agree upon as adults. After all Polk is not managing or sanctioning the sales-just providing a place for transactions to be listed and engaged upon.

And hell, if the right to change at least the flag for the For Sale to Sold can be granted to the OP to stop the constant bickering about it....;):p

mmadden28

nooshinjohn wrote: »

a simple solution to some of what has been going on would be to raise the sell limit to say 50 posts as on the Carver forum, which then opens up all access to the buyers/sellers marketplace. Until then they have a small sellers page that newbs can go to... as for newbs soliciting members with their crap outside of accepted channels, there should be instant banning from the forum for no less than 60 days...

Ha, yeah that's what I'm talking about-(I took too long to write my post )

mmadden28

I don't have an issue with PP. I'm aware of the lesser or lack of protections outside of eBay, however it is an instant transfer which can result in a faster overall transaction. And if your dealing with repeat sales (same seller and or buyer) there is an assumption of some level of satisfaction and trust already.
Its a great convenience for me and I've been using it since it started up. As Metal83 mentioned, under certain circumstances there are no PP fees.

I don't have personal checks-haven't had them for years. I always felt exposed with them anyway sending a piece of paper with my checking account # and home address on it (its my business what address to expose for shipping)- Oh and my signature too--its just form of ID theft waiting to happen.
There is no protection when you send personal checks, unless your bank offers that to you--Last bad deal I had with a check I had no recourse except to report the bad deal to the IC3, and local authorities.

Credit Cards? Well obvious fraud potential there too--I won't provide my #s to any seller unless they are a bonafide business and I'm not talking eBay or home based business. Of course most CC's provide some form of protection.

USPS MO? For me? It's inconvenient finding time to get to a PO, stand in line, then mail it. Or if receiving, again having to go to a PO to cash it.

As Hil mentioned-it would be really cool if the USPS would just act as the middle man. And somehow do it electronically. Heck even PP can probably do it. The buyer submits a payment and its gets held in escrow by the USPS. The seller gets a verified payment and ships the product. The buyer then acknowledges receipt and the payment is released. Of course very specific rules would have to be setup to handle disputes etc, but it is a good concept.
Restaurants and Gas stations kind of do that now. You submit your CC to the server or pump. At the restaurant the exact amount may not be known when the card is swiped because tip may still have to be added. At a Gas station authorization to pump is granted before it knows how much gas you need. When the authorizations are done they add an estimate for a tip to the total or an estimate of the max gas amount and put a hold on the card until the actual transactions are submitted. I think the typical gas estimated Hold is $75. I hit that limit a couple times when gas prices were at their highest. To get more gas a second approval had to be done.

Regardless of the merits or lack of any of the forms of payment-common sense must prevail and ultimately its up to the seller and the buyer to agree upon terms.

-Madden

megasat16

nooshinjohn wrote: »

a simple solution to some of what has been going on would be to raise the sell limit to say 50 posts as on the Carver forum, which then opens up all access to the buyers/sellers marketplace. Until then they have a small sellers page that newbs can go to... as for newbs soliciting members with their crap outside of accepted channels, there should be instant banning from the forum for no less than 60 days...

Carver Forum has a newbie Flea Market for members under 50 posts. It's not as well protected as the other flea market where 50+ posts member has access to.

treitz3

the OP wrote:

"How to protect our flea market sales guidelines.........."

First off, it's Polk's FM. Their guidelines are THE rule. That said, it's all you need to know. The FM has been and will be fine. Chill.

F1nut

As Hil mentioned-it would be really cool if the USPS would just act as the middle man. And somehow do it electronically. Heck even PP can probably do it. The buyer submits a payment and its gets held in escrow by the USPS. The seller gets a verified payment and ships the product. The buyer then acknowledges receipt and the payment is released. Of course very specific rules would have to be setup to handle disputes etc, but it is a good concept.

There is a company that does that already, www.Escrow.com

They charge a percentage and it's still not 100% safe.

SKsolutions

I have had nothing but good experiences here, and consider it very safe, but a 50 post minimum sound reasonable. Hiding the FM from search spiders may reduce the amount of people that come here to dump gear, but it may also reduce the amount of people that find this place and stay.
There are people that for whom I'd send out an item long before their check got here, and those for whom I wouldn't. Protect yourself if and when you feel you need to, but don't ask that the forum do it for you.
For those that feel they need it, I do like the personal escrow idea.

Disc Jockey

heiney9 wrote: »

You do realize outside of e-bay using PayPal has a very narrow and limited protection policy? Have you ever read the user agreements? Any exchange outside an e-bay deal is limited to what PayPal can recover from the person's available balance in their actual PayPal account. A person can transfer the funds out immediately and send you nothing or send you crap and you will have no recourse thru PayPal. That makes you feel safe dealing w/strangers?

H9

That's a fact right there, happened to me. I ordered a centercap for my wife's hubcap. The company sent me the wrong one, different inventory number,not even close in appearance, and I had all the correspondence so I could prove it. I of course, tried to contact the company directly - no response so I filed a claim with paypal. They suggested I contact the seller, no shi* sherlock. I tried to escalate the claim to recover my money and they said no recourse for "item delivered but significantly not as described." and closed the claim. WTF? So I could order a $1,500 item and get a bag of marbles and I've got no recourse??

Luckily I paid, mostly, with funds from my cc. They refunded my portion immediately. I hope paypal had to eat that portion. Paypal sucks.

All my exchanges from here were cash/check and exceeded my expectations for a smooth transaction every time. I don't think the fm needs much change. There will always be some level of bad transactions. Many of them won't be gotten rid of by a slight change in the rules.

comfortablycurt

daboyz wrote: »

Curt, I've met you and i wouldn't touch a check from you,we're on a strict cash basis.;):D

Crap...so you mean all of the raccoon pelts and Emu feathers I've been saving up are worthless!? Damn...I thought you'd accept them.:p

Sorry Dave...looks like it's gonna take longer than I expected...lol I guess we'll have to stick to plain old cash.;)

Ricardo

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Paypal themselves are worthless for protection, even on ebay.

Maybe they don't like you. I've got over $1,300 in refunds from paypal due bad deals on ebay.

snow

It's interesting to read the different thoughts and ideas about safeguarding ones self against getting ripped off. Increasing the minimum post count to 50 or 100 will make no difference because people constantly get around this by either selling there item openly out of the FM area or get 25 useless post rapidly then offer there item up for sale. Whether you pay via PayPal or moneyorder or check it makes no real difference because if the seller intends to rip you off he or she will do so no matter long it takes to get or in what manner they receive your money. From what I gather this latest issue is with someone that has more than a 100 posts anyhow and has been a member here for a while anyways.

If anything PayPal may be safer simply because to have a verified account means that you have to register your address that you use for your bank statements and credit card bills and if the seller doesnt have a verified account dont send the $$ or goods where as I could use a friends address to have you send a money order or check or cash too. Postal inspectors are mainly interested in fraud versus these type of theft claims so I highly doubt if you attemp to file a complaint with them because you didnt receive your speakers or whatever that anything will come of it, besides they are totally overwhelmed with work and hopelessly understaffed.

The best advice I have seen yet is simply use common sense and dont buy from someone you dont trust if you do and get ripped off well thats your fault. You take your chances even with someone you feel you can trust. odds are if you buy from GG. Doro or anyone of the members that have been here multiple years and have many many successful sales then your most likely safe but there are no guarntees hell I might become a crack head tommorow and rip you off.

:eek::p:D



REGARDS SNOW

Toolfan66

I for one have never bought anything outside of ebay till i came here. this place is much better IMO. + you can tell how the PPL here take care of there equipment just reading there post's. I will say it again like some of the other polkies here, Common Sense. You have to use it no mater where you are buying from. I have had an ebay account for years now, I sell and buy, my feedback is 100% with 250+ transactions. it's all about doing your homework period. I am still a newbie here, And i say leave it as is.:cool:

mmadden28

Here is a link to the Internet Crime Complaint Center.

Here's a short blurb from the site:

The Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3) is a partnership between the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the National White Collar Crime Center (NW3C), and the Bureau of Justice Assistance (BJA).

IC3's mission is to serve as a vehicle to receive, develop, and refer criminal complaints regarding the rapidly expanding arena of cyber crime. The IC3 gives the victims of cyber crime a convenient and easy-to-use reporting mechanism that alerts authorities of suspected criminal or civil violations. For law enforcement and regulatory agencies at the federal, state, local and international level, IC3 provides a central referral mechanism for complaints involving Internet related crimes

If you have the misfortune to have a bad deal that cannot be resolved either by communications or PP/eBay/Audiogon, etc resolution methods , etc., then file a complaint. And also file a criminal complaint with your local police as well as the local police in the town of the seller. Granted if the seller provided false info, your screwed, but if nothing else it will raise the visibility of the scam/criminal activity to the authorities.

-Madden

WilliamM2

Ricardo wrote: »

Maybe they don't like you. I've got over $1,300 in refunds from paypal due bad deals on ebay.

On the one dispute I had, I did get my money back. Problem was that it took three months. Should have just called Visa the first day.