Taking the bi-wire plunge

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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
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    Tell ya what guys. Does anyone care to run an FR sweep before and after bi-wiring and plot the results for all to see?

    At one time I had a website bookmarked that showed the difference in FR before and after. It amounted to a few dB across the 3-8 kHz range, if I recall.

    If someone wants to hunt for a full range FR download, I'll volunteer to burn the CD and do the sweep and post the before/after results because I've got a pro-grade B&K SPL meter and a tri-pod.

    1/12 octave resolution or better should do it.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,056
    edited March 2003
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    Here's my advice on bi wiring.......try it.hear it,feel about it ,then report back.

    I dig all the tecnical,and the link,it was a good read.But hearing I feel makes more of a difference then knowing.After you hear or not hear a difference,then Knowing why or why not,I believe is good.Wire........does it or doesn't it?What a question to answer.
    For a electrical stand point,from what we hear stand point.

    Bi amping ....I'll leave that one alone as I little experience with that.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • bignorm
    bignorm Posts: 120
    edited March 2003
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    Geezz
    this has a life of its own....
    Well everyone the bi-wire is complete..nothing fancy
    I used 14 gauge for the mids and 16 gauge A/R for the tweets
    and I must admit I can definitely hear a difference...more dramatic soundstage and better highs...HOWEVER, when I took the metal straps off that connect the posts they were very loose..
    some things to consider:

    If you dont bi-wire then make sure that those straps are secure on the binding posts.

    If you dont want to bi-wire then you should at least use some decent speaker wire and jump the posts and get rid of those straps....
    Eliab/Dave Abrams calibrated Panny
    Yamaha,Denon,Toshiba "in the rack"
    Polks all around
    SVS on the floor
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  • fireshoes
    fireshoes Posts: 3,167
    edited March 2003
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    I'm going to have to side with mantis on this. I don't think an SPL sweep tells the whole story. It might be a little less subjective than just listening, but I doubt the SPL meter will reflect better imaging.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
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    Originally posted by Dr. Spec
    Tell ya what guys. Does anyone care to run an FR sweep before and after bi-wiring and plot the results for all to see?

    At one time I had a website bookmarked that showed the difference in FR before and after. It amounted to a few dB across the 3-8 kHz range, if I recall.

    If someone wants to hunt for a full range FR download, I'll volunteer to burn the CD and do the sweep and post the before/after results because I've got a pro-grade B&K SPL meter and a tri-pod.

    1/12 octave resolution or better should do it.

    Doc

    I wanted to do that anyway Doc... Lets team up after I get my subs together.

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
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    Good point on the imaging, but it would at least lend some credence to the theory that bi-wiring sounds different if we could see a difference in the FR in the mid's and the highs.

    If the FR's are identical, then the theory would be a little tougher to sell, that's all.

    Again - I agree that soundstage and imaging and inner detail probably have more to do with the actual driver design than a measureable difference in FR.

    Still - it can't hurt to TRY. Somebody find me a full range FR download on the web and I'll do the dirty work and post the results. At worst, it will eliminate one variable from the discussion.

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • BeginnersLuck
    BeginnersLuck Posts: 213
    edited March 2003
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    Another thing to take into consideration is the length of the wire. Unless youy are running extremely long calbe runs...the difference should not be noticable!

    I guess the bottom line is that everyone is correct as long as they are happy with how it sounds!

    I used to have a full range FR sweep on cd...let me see if I can did it up.
    TWFTPQ
    Receiver: Outlaw 1050
    Amps: Outlaw M-200 x 3 (Powering Mains and Center)
    Mains: RT800i; Center: CS400i; Surrounds: F/X500i
    Sub1: 214L Vented Tempest
    Sub2: 122L Sealed Tempest
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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
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    Originally posted by HBombToo


    I wanted to do that anyway Doc... Lets team up after I get my subs together.

    HBomb

    What's the delivery date, Henry? Tomorrow (rubbing palms together)?

    See my updated list over in the Music and Movies category for good bass DVDs.

    K-19: The Widowmaker - holy Moses!

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
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    Should be today but we had some pretty bad weather last night. Snow with freezing rain has made a mess! UPS out here is actually better than Fed Ex and with all the stuff my wife buys I think her and the UPS guy have something going on... ;)

    Hope for the best!

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
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    So who's home waiting for the big "brown note" truck?

    I smell a "sick day" coming on! Are you all set up and ready to go with spaces and wiring runs already cleared?

    I tipped my UPS guy $10 to bring my sub right through the back door and into the HT room so I wouldn't have to cart it down a flight of stairs with a bad back.

    Considering your guy has to deliver two 60 pound subs and a 40 pound amp, you should throw him a tip too!
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
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    The wife is home and we have taken care of the guy in the big brown truck over Christmas. He's a cool guy. I'll never forget the day my Outlaw Amp showed up and I helped him carry it. He said what the hell you have in here? my response was it is an audio amplifier and his response was what the hell do you need that for the sound from the TV is good enough!

    Ouch!!! I wonder what he'll say today?

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
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    I forgot you had that Outlaw - she's a beauty. You should post your rig basics at the bottom. Not too long or you will incur the long arm of the law. Are you running an RT set-up or LSi?
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • BeginnersLuck
    BeginnersLuck Posts: 213
    edited March 2003
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    Hey HBombToo-

    What type of Outlaw gear are you running?
    I have the 1050 and 3 of the new M-200's...
    Do you have the 950...if so, how do you like it?
    TWFTPQ
    Receiver: Outlaw 1050
    Amps: Outlaw M-200 x 3 (Powering Mains and Center)
    Mains: RT800i; Center: CS400i; Surrounds: F/X500i
    Sub1: 214L Vented Tempest
    Sub2: 122L Sealed Tempest
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
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    I bought the Outlaw 770 Amp. All I can say is its a beast!

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited March 2003
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    Just my take on it, science aside, I'm a bit of a skeptic on biwiring. If you are biwiring off a midfi receiver, I doubt it makes much of a difference, MO. I think you'd be just as well off just replacing the jumper like Russ and Doc have described.

    I've found biwiring off a power amp or biamping makes a positive difference.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
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    Hows this signature?
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
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    Originally posted by TroyD
    I think you'd be just as well off just replacing the jumper like Russ and Doc have described.BDT

    Speaking of, I have developed an even cleaner way of doing the jumper if you are using banana plugs for terminations.

    Just insert both the amp wire and the jumper wire into the same banana plug (++ and --). This allows the banana plug to seat all the way down instead of bottoming out on the jumper wire that would otherwise be inside the post hole taking up space.

    The banana plugs now seats much firmer into the top posts and I feel like I am getting a more solid connection.

    For the bottom posts that will be seeing only the jumper cable wire, you can use the posts holes or another set of banana plugs - your choice.

    If I lost anyone, I can shoot off another pic.

    Oh, and Henry - like the new sig!

    Doc
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • TonyPTX
    TonyPTX Posts: 545
    edited March 2003
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    Doc, that's one way to do it, the other way would be to use the Monster Dual Banana plugs. Plug these into the back of your speaker, run banana's into the thumbscrew socket on the back of each unit and run some 12 gauge or bigger wire as a jumper. Tin the end, jam it into the hole and tighten the set screw. You can put banana's on the other end of the 12 gauge wire and plug those into the upper terminals. (I only suggested 12 gauge wire because it's the only size that fits decently into the fairly large hole of the dual banana unit.)

    You can also use these guys if you want to bi-wire your speaks with the heavy stuff (12+ gauge) and still be able to fit the connector to the back of your reciever and keep it clean.
    Damn....8 lines...I've gotta put my sig on a diet now....
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  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,314
    edited March 2003
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    HBombToo,Being a fellow Missourian and a U.P.S. Delivery Driver for the past 25 years,I can tell you that we make a lot of friends in the course of a workday.I have people that I deliver pkgs. to EVERY DAY...A lot of good people out there,and I don't mind in the least to do the" little extra " for any of them...By the way,don't worry about your U.P.S. guy and the little lady,he doesn't have the time anyway!!!
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  • Dr. Spec
    Dr. Spec Posts: 3,780
    edited March 2003
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    Tony - I love those - didn't know they made 'em. Thanks bro.
    "What we do in life echoes in eternity"

    Ed Mullen (emullen@svsound.com)
    Director - Technology and Customer Service
    SVS
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,056
    edited March 2003
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    TroyD,
    Just my take on it, science aside, I'm a bit of a skeptic on biwiring. If you are biwiring off a midfi receiver, I doubt it makes much of a difference, MO. I think you'd be just as well off just replacing the jumper like Russ and Doc have described.
    You doubt it makes much of a difference.OK,but have you tried it yourself?Thats just the thing about being a skeptic,thinking and doing I believe are 2 different things bud.Do you own any bi wirable speakers you could do the listening test yourself??**** dude you own the B&W 602s2 right???There bi wireable.Take that Denon you own and give it a run.I'd like to read what you heard.
    Replacing the jumpers is a step in the right direction,and it does sound better wired that way.Speaker companies should just use speaker wire there,Mirage does this to name one company, on the OM series.They use a nice 14 guage terminated spade jumper wires.Very classy and a nice touch to a positive line......if your into Mirage.

    As you know,I have bi wired on Mid fi receivers(thousand dollar range )and I heard a big big difference.Amazing what a simple wire upgrade can do for your system.

    I own the Monster M1.4s bi wires and I'm getting them out as I feel I need to upgrade them due to my upgrade to B&K.I'm searching wire high and low.I have found cables that sound really good, but I want to experience alot of other brands in MY system before I lock into anyone.

    Troy ,hope you do the test and report back,like I said,I would love to read what you heard.......................untill then.:cool:
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • TonyPTX
    TonyPTX Posts: 545
    edited March 2003
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    Originally posted by Dr. Spec
    Tony - I love those - didn't know they made 'em. Thanks bro.

    NP, glad I can help. Least I could do to return the amount of info I've tapped from you.

    You should be able to pick the Monster Dual Banana's at a local BestBuy or Circuit City for about $16 a pair.

    If you're cost conscience (which I know you're not), or can't get the Monsters directly from a local shop, you can try the RadioShack Equivalent. Build quality is equal and you would be hard pressed to pick out the difference in a blindfold test. RadioShack will charge you about $6.00 each for a savings of about $2.00/unit.
    Damn....8 lines...I've gotta put my sig on a diet now....
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited March 2003
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    Originally posted by mantis
    TroyD,

    You doubt it makes much of a difference.OK,but have you tried it yourself?Thats just the thing about being a skeptic,thinking and doing I believe are 2 different things bud.Do you own any bi wirable speakers you could do the listening test yourself??**** dude you own the B&W 602s2 right???There bi wireable.Take that Denon you own and give it a run.I'd like to read what you heard.
    Replacing the jumpers is a step in the right direction,and it does sound better wired that way.Speaker companies should just use speaker wire there,Mirage does this to name one company, on the OM series.They use a nice 14 guage terminated spade jumper wires.Very classy and a nice touch to a positive line......if your into Mirage.

    As you know,I have bi wired on Mid fi receivers(thousand dollar range )and I heard a big big difference.Amazing what a simple wire upgrade can do for your system.

    I own the Monster M1.4s bi wires and I'm getting them out as I feel I need to upgrade them due to my upgrade to B&K.I'm searching wire high and low.I have found cables that sound really good, but I want to experience alot of other brands in MY system before I lock into anyone.

    Troy ,hope you do the test and report back,like I said,I would love to read what you heard.......................untill then.:cool:

    Yes Dan, I have. I've tried it with the CS400i run off the Denon receiver. I percieved no difference than with my wire jumpers. I don't know about the biwire vs. stock jumper as I toss the sumbitch the day I bought the speaker. Biamping from a power amp, different story, big difference. I attribute that to the loads of good power. I've not tried bridging the amp and biwiring of amp in mono so I couldn't tell you the differences there.

    As far as the Beemers go, I've tried them biwired off the Denon. Again, off the Denon, no difference that i could percieve over the wire jumpers. I have only run them with the biwire cables in with a power amp, so I can't speak intelligently if it make a difference.

    So, yes, believe it or not (and there are some who probably won't believe it) I do listen to some things before running my pie hole. Some things I can form a semi-intelligent opinion on. And in the case, with a midfi receiver (which was my original point), yes, I think that the differences in biwiring are not a gimmie, I don't think it hurts but I think the differences are subtle, but that's MY opinion.

    Troy
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
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    Originally posted by Mike Reeter
    HBombToo,Being a fellow Missourian and a U.P.S. Delivery Driver for the past 25 years,I can tell you that we make a lot of friends in the course of a workday.I have people that I deliver pkgs. to EVERY DAY...A lot of good people out there,and I don't mind in the least to do the" little extra " for any of them...By the way,don't worry about your U.P.S. guy and the little lady,he doesn't have the time anyway!!!

    NO WAY!!! It is great to bump into 1 of you guys in here! UPS does a great job especially in Central MO where the roads are not marked very well... Our UPS guy is cool and if you knew me you would realize I was just funing around!

    Great job and even though I'm a Jr. Fan I always watch Rusty and sometimes drink his brand. ;)

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Tour2ma
    Tour2ma Posts: 10,177
    edited March 2003
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    Originally posted by TroyD
    So, yes, believe it or not (and there are some who probably won't believe it) I do listen to some things before running my pie hole.
    :lol::lol::lol: +.....
    True or not, IT"S FUNNY.....
    More later,
    Tour...
    Vox Copuli
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Old English Proverb

    "Death doesn't come with a Uhaul." - Dennis Gardner
    "It's easy to get lost in price vs performance vs ego vs illusion." - doro
    "There is a certain entertainment value in ripping the occaisonal (sic) buttmunch..." - TroyD
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  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,314
    edited March 2003
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    HBombToo,I knew you were BS'in about the U.P.S. man!!One of these days you'll have to visit N.W. Mo. and give me a hand with wiring my Audio System!!! I'm a DJ fan myself,but I drink a hell-of-lot of Rusty's Beer...Cheers
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
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    Originally posted by Mike Reeter
    HBombToo,I knew you were BS'in about the U.P.S. man!!One of these days you'll have to visit N.W. Mo. and give me a hand with wiring my Audio System!!! I'm a DJ fan myself,but I drink a hell-of-lot of Rusty's Beer...Cheers

    I have had intentions of spending some time up in St. Joe... My problem is corporate fire drills have prevented me from doing so.

    If thats anywhere close to where you are??? I buy the first BEER!

    Trust me when I say we all have much to learn and you have a wealth of knowledge right here! When I'm up that way it would be an honor to help in any way.

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • Mike Reeter
    Mike Reeter Posts: 4,314
    edited March 2003
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    HBomb,I'm on your way to St.Joe,in Chillicothe...no need to buy,I've got a well stocked fridge in the garage!!!
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited March 2003
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    Originally posted by Mike Reeter
    HBomb,I'm on your way to St.Joe,in Chillicothe...no need to buy,I've got a well stocked fridge in the garage!!!

    We have the design for Rt36 from Cameron to Macon for SPCS service expansion. Budget is real tight this year but I'll difinetly be touring through Chillicothe when it happens not if.

    I will make a point drop by.

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,056
    edited March 2003
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    Well Troy,
    I'm glad to hear it.It's nice when your speaking form what you heard.I can respect that.
    Dan
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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