Taking the bi-wire plunge

bignorm · February 2003

Well after all I have read on the topic...I have decided to bi-wire
my RTi70's..
currently I am using Home Depot 12 gage wire and to bi-wire I am going to use 14 gage for the tweets and then the 12 gage for
the mids/bass...My question is....do I have to purchase some special bi-wired cable or can I just use the cables mentioned above.....

Thanks all!!!!!

RuSsMaN · February 2003

You can do either, buy a pre-made biwire cable, buy a four-conductor cable, or use what you have.

danger boy · February 2003

this is such a hot topic.. but like Russ said. you can use the wires you have and get the same results. Some people CAN hear a difference.. while other people notice little gain. I think since it's such an easy thing to do.. everyone interested should give it a try.

Tour2ma · February 2003

bignorm,
Try the guages both ways, i.e., heavier to lows and then swap it to highs. Kind of got into that late in thread a while back before it died and went to thread heaven.
Counterintuitive at first whiff, but there is a thread of logic if you squint real hard.
If I stumble across the old thread, I'll post it.

TonyPTX · February 2003

Would it matter if I were insane and ran 12 Gauge Monster Ref. Series wire to both the Highs and Lows on the RTi70? And for that matter the CSi40?

Dr. Spec · February 2003

It won't matter at all. Just tough to fit both leads into one output at the amp. I use 14/14 and it just fits into one banana plug and it works very clean and neat.

Tour2ma · February 2003

Originally posted by TonyPTX
Would it matter if I were insane... ?

Yes, because you live too close to Texas...

(Took the Liberty since Doc answered the real question...)

Doc, think you said you use MC bananas. Are they compression type? Have a Model #?

Dr. Spec · February 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Yes, because you live too close to Texas...

(Took the Liberty since Doc answered the real question...)

Doc, think you said you use MC bananas. Are they compression type? Have a Model #?

http://www.monstercable.com/productPage.asp?pin=1272

goingganzo · February 2003

i pre wired for bi amp/wire on my mains and center. reason i have not done yet is i dont have any more bana plugs. also would i run 2 wires all the way to the recever or 1 from recever to wall plate behind recever

Frank Z · February 2003

Originally posted by TonyPTX
Would it matter if I were insane

Well of course it matters...crazy people are always hearing voices in their heads!!

danger boy · February 2003

i tried the 12 guage wires.. and they were to big to to fit some of my components. so 14 guage is a good size for me.. fits all the binding posts. and i'm happy again.

Soccerplyr · February 2003

I made mine with the monster mc 500 ( I think that's right, the thickest they have at CC) and found that it woludn't fit in the back of my receiver when I combine the 2 pieces together. Inorder to make it fit without cutting 1/2 the copper out I bought the Quick lock bananas and the Quick LOck flex tips. This allows me to connect both to the same speaker input on the back- the banana in the hole and the flex tip under the binding post.

BeginnersLuck · March 2003

I'm not sure why everyone is so interested in running so many wires to their speakers. Why waste time on bi-wireing with 2 pair of 14 gauge when you could just go out and buy one 12 gauge wire and be done with it. The price ends up working out to be the same anyway. If you want to run bi-wire 12 gauge...scrap it and go buy single runs of 10 gauge. Why waste the time and effort! One 10 gauge wire sounds just as good as a bi-wired pair of 12 gauge wires. Am I missing something?

HBombToo · March 2003

OH NO HER WE GO!!!:rolleyes:

HBomb

but I can't fault you at all....

TroyD · March 2003

Beginnersluck,

Do a search on some of the biwiring threads. The fundamental premise has nil to do with the guage of the wire but more to do with how power is fed to the speaker via the crossover.

HBomb,

He just doesn't know, therefore it's no big deal. It's the folks that know better that you drop the hammer on.

BDT

Tour2ma · March 2003

Aw Troy... you spoil all the fun... and here I was planning this cookout with HBomb on the flaming newbie and now I just feel ashamed...

BL,
Welcome to the Club. You dove right into the deep end of the pool here. I kinda like that... Only thing deeper is esoteric wire vs. lamp cord and the whole gambit in between. Plenty o' threads on that, too.

Troy's nailed the basic goal of bi-wire, but do a little searching as Troy suggests. It gets even deeper, e.g., what gauge of wire to run to what drivers.

Regardless of all the opinions on this topic and the other "debates" in the Club, always remember it's all in the ears. So what sounds good to you is what matters...

Now I gotta go figure out what to do with all these hot dogs I bought...

BeginnersLuck · March 2003

I would tend to think that unless the speaker company is using extremly poor quality crossover designs (very unlikely)...then you are just better off using a larger gauge wire than using two smaller gauge wires to accomplish the same thing.

Another thing to note is that if you wire the speaker in the following config, then it is identical to bi-wireing.

Red1 terminal gets the + feed from the speaker cable,
Red2 gets a jumper wire from Red1.
Black2 terminal gets the - feed from the speaker cable,
Black1 gets a jumper wire from Black2.

Unless you are using active filtering to split the high and low freq's...the built in crossover is being used...so once again, I don't see the point?

TroyD-

What is it that you refer to that I don't know?

Dr. Spec · March 2003

Originally posted by BeginnersLuck
Another thing to note is that if you wire the speaker in the following config, then it is identical to bi-wireing.

so once again, I don't see the point?

TroyD-

What is it that you refer to that I don't know?

In my best Yoda voice: "presumptuous, you are".

http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/Answr7.htm

Read and learn, oh newbie-wan.

Doc

F1nut · March 2003

And that, ladies and gentlemen, concludes today's lesson on the benefits of bi-wiring. Tomorrow we'll discuss tri-wiring.

Tour2ma · March 2003

Thanks for the ref Doc. Best attempt at an explanation I've read, but i still don't get it. They say:

"The benefits of bi-wiring are most obvious in the midrange and treble. The low-current signal to the midrange and tweeter drivers does not have to travel on the same wire as the high-current woofer signal. The field fluctuations and signal regeneration of the high-current low-frequencies are prevented from distorting or masking the low-current high-frequencies. The back EMF (Electro-Mechanical Force) from the large woofer cannot affect the small-signal upper frequencies since they do not share the same wires."

I can't get it out of my head that the full music signal is going through both wire runs to the speaker, and the un-used signal info is being returned to the amp. How is this signal selectivity the write up claims achieved? It can't be via the amp's external feedback loop capabilities since the individual bits that are unused are "mixed" at their common termination at the amp's neg terminal.

BeginnersLuck · March 2003

Dr. Spec-

You bring up a good point...however this is the polk forums and from the looks of things most people are using polk speakers. The crossover in the vandersteens that are talked about in the article are specifically designed to function the way described. Also note that most of the reason that everyone claims to hear an improvement in bi-wire applications is because they are eliminating the crappy brass connectors that are supplied from the manufacturer. I would argue that replacing the brass jumbers with the same wire used for the speaker will make up this "noticable diference" that people claim to notice. Plus it is a much cheaper alternative to add an extra 6 inches of jumper cable. Also note that once the wires are touched at the amp end, you are activating the polk internal crossover and are essentially stuck in the same boat. However, since the brass jumpers were eliminated...the sound seemed to improve. I would argue that the sonic differences noted in the article are just as noticable by replacing the brass jumpers...hence no need to bi-wire!

Bi-amping on the other hand is a different monster altogether!

It's funny how people in the audio world assume that reviewer's and tester's ears are better than others...and their claims are more important than our own. Sometimes the only difference is in what we want to believe and not what we actually hear.

I guess the bottom line is that I would argue that a 10 gauge wire with replaced brass jumpers would sound equally as good as two equal quality 10 gauge wires in a bi-wire setup.

Theroetically, once the wires touch...either at the receiver end or the speaker end...the polk internal crossover is activated and we are back to square one.

Thanks for the link, it was an interesting read!

Tour2ma · March 2003

Doc, or anybody, I'd still like an answer to what I posed a couple posts above.

BL,
Since you (re)opened this can of worms why do you say bi-amping is all that different? More power can be "cleaner" I'll agree, but do you think bi-amping is superior to just a more powerful amp?

I still say I can't see any signal reality at this point other than both amps reproducing the full signal to all four speaker runs.... But I am willing to learn...

BTW BL, WTH is TWFTPQ???

BeginnersLuck · March 2003

Tour2ma-

I do not think that bi amping is superior to one powerful amp.
I would argue that one powerful amp is better than two less powerful amps. However, from an upgrade...it is more economical to add an identical amp than to throw away the amp and buy a more powerful one. With that being said...I will argue a more power amp (400W) is better than two (200W) amps of equal quality!

For the same reason I would argue that a 10 gauge wire (eliminating the brass connectors) is better than two 12 gauge wires of equal quality. However, just like with bi-amping...from an upgrade standpoint it is much cheater to add an extra set of 12 gauge wire than to scrap it and run one 10 gauge wire...

TWFTPQ- senior quote from high school that has dual meaning...That Was Fun, Time Passed Quickly...it is also a quote from the movie "The Rock"..."losers try their best...The Winners **** The Prom Queen"

Later!

Dr. Spec · March 2003

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/biwire/Page1.html

Here's another take, for you electrical theory eggheads. Their take is it CAN theoretically make a SLIGHT difference in sound, but the difference will be subtle at best and inaudible most of the time.

If you can wade through this stuff and still see straight at the end, you're a better man than I.

HBombToo · March 2003

How is it that Sid missed this thread? He must be sleeping or hopefully so confused he want to read and learn.

Ok then... my 2c for what its worth. 2 amps are better than 1 and bi-wire is better than not. How we go about doing it is a matter of taste and bank. Me... I'm the guy that goes to Rat Shack and buys his 12 guage speaker wire and compression fit Bannana plugs. I don't buy into the marketing hype plus I receive a 15% discount @ the Shack because of my employment with an affiliate of Sprint PCS.

For me I think its KARAZY spending on wire when I could have a new piece of gear but then again thats MY preference.

HBomb

BeginnersLuck · March 2003

Come on you guys, really think about it...put aside the paper work and math for a minute and use so common sence. In a bi-wire setup, the wires eventually touch (at the receiver end like this {amp<speaker}, or at the speaker end like this {amp>speaker}). Once the wires touch, you are in essence activating the speakers internal crossover. Unless you put in some type of filter to seperate the high and low freqs...then there cannot possibly be any bennefit other than you are 1)doubling the gauge, and 2) removing the brass plugs.

A simple test to this theory would be to take your current bi-wire setup and replace it with one cable of equivalent gauge. Remember to replace the brass connectors with the current speaker wire. If you can notice a difference then try asking someone else who is neutral on the matter or could care less. See if they can notice a difference. Chances are they won't, becasue there should not be one.

Happy tweaking!

BeginnersLuck · March 2003

Dr. Spec-

Awesome site:
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...wire/Page1.html

This was a very good site. So maybe there is hope...but is it audible...mmmm...who can really tell. The millions of different calbles and combinations of amps....possible to tell. Can the average person tell...nah probably not! But for those who can, more power to you!

HBombToo · March 2003

Originally posted by BeginnersLuck
Once the wires touch, you are in essence activating the speakers internal crossover. Unless you put in some type of filter to seperate the high and low freqs...

What does activate the speakers internal crossover imply?

From my take there is a high pass and low pass passive RLC network that is either tied in parallel or seperated into 2 circuits when the external strap is removed. No I'm not an advocate of 2000 dollar cables but the common sense in bi-wireing is there! Its just my preference that I bi-amp so there you have it...

Furthermore, what are you talking about when you say add another filter to seperate the frequencies??? That is what the crossover in the speakers do...

HBomb

TonyPTX · March 2003

Originally posted by HBombToo

What does activate the speakers internal crossover imply?

What I believe BL is referring to here is the simple fact that once you connect the ends of the speaker wire at the amp, you in essences have a "short" between your highs and your lows, thus, the HP x-over filter on the tweeter will be activated because it "sees" the signal from the lows because of the "short."

HOWEVER, what is being missed here in the whole concept of this thread is the fact that the low frequencies are what draw HIGHER current. The highs don't have nearly the current draw because the load that the circuit sees is much smaller. The link between the two is the fact any wire subject to a current will form a magnetic field around it (electro magnet). The higher the current, the bigger the magnetic field. This coupled with fact of the existance of inductors in a X-OVER network results in what's known as Back EMF (electro motive force). If the signal for the highs is weaker (less current) than the lows, this back EMF could potential prevent the full signal strength from reaching the speaker and as a result the mid-bass and highs sound "thin". By seperating the signal, you are in essence reducing the current in the high frequency network resulting is a smaller back EMF and more of the high's signal getting to the speakers.

I'm not a EE, but this is the way I see it and I'm sticking to my guns.

HBombToo · March 2003

Originally posted by TonyPTX

What I believe BL is referring to here is the simple fact that once you connect the ends of the speaker wire at the amp, you in essences have a "short" between your highs and your lows, thus, the HP x-over filter on the tweeter will be activated because it "sees" the signal from the lows because of the "short."

Nope! Don't agree. No short at all... just simply two series RLC circuits is parallel with the straps and a high pass and low pass seperated without.

You can change the transfer function much easier adding higher or lower capacitive lines to the high pass circuit, in effect, changeing what you hear. Thats why I disagree with increasing the guage because at 12 guage you are at the point of diminishing returns regarding line loss. "Wire helps you tweek the reactance." I'll some day have say LSI's over RTi's and it will be worth the game. Right now I'll spend money elsewhere.

HBomb

gidrah · March 2003

bignorm: What you're considering should be a big improvement. Just make sure the runs are the same length. If you have a spare speaker B connect it here and run your amp/receiver A+B. More contact area and such.

I'm too schnockered to post anything else. I'll be back.

Taking the bi-wire plunge

Comments