Mysterious Power Line Super Gremlins

DarqueKnight

organ wrote: »

Ouch! That must have been really bad. Good to hear that they fixed the problem.

It was bad from the standpoint of what I was used to and would have sounded much worse if not for the Power Plant Premiers.

Bad as it was, it still wasn't something most people would have noticed.

I-SIG

PM sent.

Wes

treitz3

organ wrote: »

Did you try a commercial line conditioner?

I've tried everything, even two of them daisy chained. You can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****.

My wife knows that once we move, one of the conditions of purchasing the new pad is that we will have clean power or the ability to at least achieve it.

I-SIG

treitz3 wrote: »

I've tried everything, even two of them daisy chained. You can't make chicken soup out of chicken ****.

My wife knows that once we move, one of the conditions of purchasing the new pad is that we will have clean power or the ability to at least achieve it.

FYI-Unless you live on a larger plot of land (read one service on one transformer), for what it will cost to get you a dedicated transformer, you can get some serious acoustic treats and some serious gear.

I design this stuff for living and unless your power company has an unusually friendly upgrade policy, you'll be looking at an easy $5-10 (George) grand.

Wes

dorokusai

Do what you do DK but I just press play....not sure where the problem is. When you want to do some A/B testing, I'll pay for your plane ticket.

mrbigbluelight

DK, you mentioned "There is nothing in a residence that would cause triple the normal amount of harmonic distortion to appear on a neighbors power line. The fact that the the 3rd and 5th harmonics were increased to over twice their normal amplitude indicates that the problem originated with the power company or with a commercial customer.

I assume that you're not located in the middle of an industrial development, but the harmonics and the levels you're seeing are somewhat typical of what can/does occur with solid state industrial drives. You don't have any neighbors putting pulse-width modulated ABB drives on their furnace motors, do you ?

I'll "ditto" what Joe said; interesting writeups that are well written. Plus ..... pretty pictures !!

DarqueKnight

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

I assume that you're not located in the middle of an industrial development, but the harmonics and the levels you're seeing are somewhat typical of what can/does occur with solid state industrial drives. You don't have any neighbors putting pulse-width modulated ABB drives on their furnace motors, do you ?

No...not that I know of...and I am over 10 miles from any obvious industrial development.

DarqueKnight

dorokusai wrote: »

Do what you do DK but I just press play....not sure where the problem is. When you want to do some A/B testing, I'll pay for your plane ticket.

OK, you can pay for my trip to take the Randi cable challenge, provided he lets me bring my own cables and source material.:)

gdb

Dear Mr. DK, are there any "user friendly for dummies" monitoring devices that could be employed by non-engineers to check their incoming power quality? If your situation were experienced long term by someone else, would any damage/destruction to electronic equipment have resulted?? I live in the Maryland countryside, and am the sole user connected to a pole-mounted transformer,would that make me more likely to have "clean" power or do the generation/sub stations have a greater effect on PQ?? Any and all suggestions for low-buck surge/filter/conditioning measures would be appreciated too.....as long as they're within my comprehension level!!:(:o

DarqueKnight

gdb wrote: »

Dear Mr. DK, are there any "user friendly for dummies" monitoring devices that could be employed by non-engineers to check their incoming power quality?

Power quality monitors and oscilloscopes are not complicated instruments. You can download tutorials and owners manuals from companies like Fluke and Tektronix. Expect to pay between $1000 and $2000 for a new unit and between $500 and $1000 for a used unit.

gdb wrote: »

If your situation were experienced long term by someone else, would any damage/destruction to electronic equipment have resulted??

No. My current, voltage and frequency were within spec. The only anomaly was the extremely high amount of noise, which only affected the signal quality of my home entertainment equipment.

gdb wrote: »

I live in the Maryland countryside, and am the sole user connected to a pole-mounted transformer,would that make me more likely to have "clean" power or do the generation/sub stations have a greater effect on PQ??

A dedicated transformer can act as a noise gate to prevent noise from other customers from flowing back to your home. The largest determinate of your power quality will be the generation plant and distribution substations.

gdb wrote: »

Any and all suggestions for low-buck surge/filter/conditioning measures would be appreciated too.....as long as they're within my comprehension level!!:(:o

You could start off by going to the Panamax and PS Audio websites and looking through their power filtration products. The Polk, PS Audio, Audiogon and Audio Asylum forums have some information from users of various power products from these companies.

Bear in mind that if you have clean power to begin with, the effect of power conditioning devices may be minimal to imperceptible. However, really "clean" power is rare since the power grid is designed for running lightbulbs and appliances rather than sensitive high end home entertainment electronics.

DarqueKnight

I-SIG wrote: »

I design this stuff for living and unless your power company has an unusually friendly upgrade policy, you'll be looking at an easy $5-10 (George) grand.

I sent an email to my power company asking for a "ballpark" figure for the cost of a dedicated transformer at my residence. They replied the next day and asked me to call and set up an appointment for an engineer to come out to my house.

When I called, I asked why they couldn't just pull up the distribution plan for my neighborhood and provide an estimate from that. I was told that company policy requires an on site inspection. There is no charge for the on site inspection. The engineer is coming out this Friday.

gdb

Thanks for your responses to my greenhorn questions!!!
We definitely do not share the same power company, that's for damn sure!!:D

Ricardo

Very nice write up Raife (as usual).

It seems that no matter how far one goes, there is always "something else" you can find problems on.....and of course find some expensive tweak that will fix it. I prefer to enjoy the music with a decent rig, make a few changes/upgrades once in a while just to experience different sounds, and that's it. The day I start working with the power conmpany to improve my listening experience I will let everything go

Systems

Mr. DarqueKnight:

I just wanted your opinion on these Panmax power conditioner/surge protector. This is the one I'm looking at:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_299M5300EX/Panamax-MAX-5300-EX.html

I'm getting my old Pioneer system back online, sx-950 and PL-510a, and wanted on some sort of surge protector for the main reason.

I don't know how "dirty" my power is, I know my UPS's kick on quite frequently from noise. I live out on a farm and do have a dedicated transformer and all the lines are buried.

And the price for it doesn't seem to bad.....

skrol

Ricardo wrote: »

Very nice write up Raife (as usual).

Sorry for the tangent...

It seems that no matter how far one goes, there is always "something else" you can find problems on.....and of course find some expensive tweak that will fix it. I prefer to enjoy the music with a decent rig, make a few changes/upgrades once in a while just to experience different sounds, and that's it. The day I start working with the power conmpany to improve my listening experience I will let everything go

I guess that we are all in this audiophile thing for different reasons and that is OK. Some of us are right brained, some are left to various degrees. For some folks (the artist) it is all about the music even if it comes from a transistor radio with a 2" full range speaker. For others (the engineer) it is a quest for the ultimate in pure sound reproduction. Either way, we all enjoy.

Personally, I go back and forth between. I always enjoy good quality sound (a relative term I know) but only to the limits of my budget (I have kids). If it doesn't cost me much then I will tweak to my hearts content. Sometimes I do get too wrapped up in the SQ instead of the musical content but that is short lived and I fall back into the music.

I see the same kind of POVs for photography. Some are in it for the equipment and seem content to take photos of brick walls in order to assess lens distortion. Others could care less about the distortion and it becomes part of the art. Still there are those who are in it for the joy of acquiring, buying and selling equipment.

Who cares as long as we, in our own way, enjoy what we do and it does no harm to others.

I'll step off the soap box now:).

Stan

DarqueKnight

Lorthos wrote: »

Mr. DarqueKnight:

I just wanted your opinion on these Panmax power conditioner/surge protector. This is the one I'm looking at:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_299M5300EX/Panamax-MAX-5300-EX.html

Panamax makes well regarded power conditioning gear, but I don't have any personal experience with any of their stuff. Some of the guys here do. I'd recommend a search of past threads and then post a general inquiry thread if you don't find satisfactory answers. There's also tons of info on Panamax gear on other web sites.

DarqueKnight

skrol wrote: »

I guess that we are all in this audiophile thing for different reasons and that is OK. Some of us are right brained, some are left to various degrees. For some folks (the artist) it is all about the music even if it comes from a transistor radio with a 2" full range speaker. For others (the engineer) it is a quest for the ultimate in pure sound reproduction. Either way, we all enjoy.

Art and science are not mutually exclusive endeavors. I think that the proper application of science facilitates better art. One of my avocations is playing the saxophone. I enjoy studying the theories and techniques of making music as well as the theories and concepts of high quality music reproduction. However, I am not an electronics hobbyist.

DarqueKnight

Ricardo wrote: »

The day I start working with the power conmpany to improve my listening experience I will let everything go

Never say never.

skrol

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Art and science are not mutually exclusive endeavors. I think that the proper application of science facilitates better art. ...

Amen!

skrol

Ricardo wrote: »

... The day I start working with the power conmpany to improve my listening experience I will let everything go

I was thinking I might go work for the power company. Especially if the green energy thing ever takes hold.

reeltrouble1

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Art and science are not mutually exclusive endeavors.

Raife, you are dangerously close to falling into the Rabbit Hole with me, careful, it can be dark in here and it is quite possible to lose things.

You know the only other person to see its entrance inside the Shed was Polk65, go figure.......

RT1

gdb

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Panamax makes well regarded power conditioning gear, but I don't have any personal experience with any of their stuff. Some of the guys here do. I'd recommend a search of past threads and then post a general inquiry thread if you don't find satisfactory answers. There's also tons of info on Panamax gear on other web sites.

I've heard mention of "MOVs" or something like that, that are supposedly a less desirable type of surge unit. Any thoughts on the best/better technology to have in a unit?? Whats'a MOV anyway ??:D

DarqueKnight

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Raife, you are dangerously close to falling into the Rabbit Hole with me, careful, it can be dark in here and it is quite possible to lose things.RT1

Lose things? Like what? My mind? I have it on good authority that I lost that a long time ago.

As far as the rabbit hole goes, I used to dance around the edge quite a bit until I fell in. I just never told anyone.

---

You didn't actually fall in, I noticed what you were doing and gave you a little push. By the way, I noticed that I wasn't able to break you with audio gear purchases...but I'm patient. I'm working on finding you a nice wife.

Good luck. The fact that I insist on an iron-clad pre-nup will effectively scare off any "candidate" you'd put up for consideration.~DK

DarqueKnight

gdb wrote: »

Whats'a MOV anyway ??

MOV = Metal Oxide Varistor. It is a type of variable resistor and they are the most prevalent device used in all types of consumer grade surge protection equipment. The chief drawback is that the more they are tripped the less effective they become. The lower quality MOV's are less desirable devices.

There are many variations and quality levels of these devices. Shunyata uses TMOV's (thermally protected MOV) in their products. PS Audio uses non-volatile MOV's in their products.

gdb wrote: »

Any thoughts on the best/better technology to have in a unit??

No. There's always a better way to do something. I don't know what is considered the "best" surge protection technology or if that technology, whatever it may be, is applicable to audio and video gear protection. There is often a delicate trade off between surge protection and the adverse effects of such protection on signal quality.

I-SIG

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I sent an email to my power company asking for a "ballpark" figure for the cost of a dedicated transformer at my residence. They replied the next day and asked me to call and set up an appointment for an engineer to come out to my house.

When I called, I asked why they couldn't just pull up the distribution plan for my neighborhood and provide an estimate from that. I was told that company policy requires an on site inspection. There is no charge for the on site inspection. The engineer is coming out this Friday.

Well...good luck. If you are lucky, you will be served by OH and things will be a lot simpler. (But maybe not much cheaper.) If you are in an UG area, especially in a subdivision, things will be complicated and more expensive as I'm willing to bet you'll have to do your own trenching.

Wes

reeltrouble1

DarqueKnight wrote: »

As far as the rabbit hole goes, I used to dance around the edge quite a bit until I fell in. I just never told anyone.

Ah, I wondered who that was banging around a few pathway tunnels over.

RT1--Holding a candle against the wind of Audio Darkness, the MP3.

Its Really not so bad in here though, I am pretty sure the place scares Justin.....

DarqueKnight

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I sent an email to my power company asking for a "ballpark" figure for the cost of a dedicated transformer at my residence. They replied the next day and asked me to call and set up an appointment for an engineer to come out to my house.

When I called, I asked why they couldn't just pull up the distribution plan for my neighborhood and provide an estimate from that. I was told that company policy requires an on site inspection. There is no charge for the on site inspection. The engineer is coming out this Friday.

I-SIG wrote: »

FYI-Unless you live on a larger plot of land (read one service on one transformer), for what it will cost to get you a dedicated transformer, you can get some serious acoustic treats and some serious gear.

The practicality of a dedicated transformer, like any other tweak, is relative to the investment in audio/video gear and the resolution of that gear. If you have a substantial investment in moderate to high resolution gear and the cost of a dedicated transformer would only be a small fraction of your total equipment cost, then it makes sense.

The power company engineer arrived at my house at the appointed time last Friday. I thought he was coming to do the site survey, but he had completed the site survey on Wednesday. He arrived with a detailed quote to discuss. He also provided a diagram showing the other seven houses that were served by the transformer my house is connected to. I asked the engineer to quantify the amount of harmonic and noise reduction I could expect with the dedicated transformer. He said that the transformer would "significantly reduce" line noise and harmonics, but I would need to consult with a power quality engineer for a numerical estimate. After he left, I sent this email to the power quality engineer I had previously corresponded with concerning the noise abnormalities I experienced in January:

---

Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:56 PM
To: m@entergy.com
Subject: Power Quality Improvement Estimation

Mr. M,

Mr. B prepared a detailed estimate of the cost to provide a dedicated transformer at my current residence.

I am interested in reducing the amount of harmonic noise on my power lines. Can you give me a quantitative estimate of the amount of noise reduction I can expect with a dedicated transformer?

It would be most helpful if I could have an estimate of the amount of dB that the 3rd, 5th, and 7th harmonics would be reduced and an estimate of the resulting total harmonic distortion (percentage) I could expect after the installation of the transformer.

---

Sent: Mon 3/2/2009 9:29 AM
Subject: RE: Power Quality Improvement Estimation

Dr. S,

Unfortunately we cannot provide the information you’ve requested without intensive monitoring.

We’ve done some research about the fluctuations you’ve experienced during the month of January 09. We were making upgrades to the substation that normally feeds your area and we had the circuit switched to an alternate source. The alternate source was further away than your normal substation source which may have caused these fluctuations. The substation work is now complete and we don’t expect you to see any further fluctuations under our normal operating conditions.

Please note that you would still have experienced these abnormalities even with a dedicated transformer.

Let me know if you have any questions or concerns..

---

I-SIG wrote: »

I design this stuff for living and unless your power company has an unusually friendly upgrade policy, you'll be looking at an easy $5-10 (George) grand.

My subdivision is served by underground facilities. The cost, inclusive of digging and trenching, to provide a dedicated transformer at my residence would be $5,635 ($3,968 for equipment, $1,667 for labor). This figure is much less than my total expenditures for inside power infrastructure upgrades: dedicated 20 amp AC circuits, audio grade power cords, AC regenerators, passive power conditioners, and audio grade AC receptacles. It is a very reasonable expense considering my investment in high resolution audio and video equipment. If I planned to be in my current house for a long time, and if the amount of noise reduction would be in the range of 5 to 10 times, I wouldn't hesitate to have the dedicated transformer installed. Averaged over 10 years, the transformer cost would be the equivalent of an additional $47 on my monthly power bill. This is less than my cost would be for a monthly subscription to a digital cable premium channel package ($67) or premium high speed Internet service ($57). I will definitely consider a dedicated transformer or a commercial grade AC regenerator (or both ) for my next house.

I asked the power company engineer if my dedicated transformer request was unusual. His reply:

"No. We often get requests for custom power configurations from customers who want lower harmonic power for their electronics. We also get custom configuration requests from farmers who need to have their power delivery configured so that electric fields don't affect their livestock. The chief complaints being chickens that stop laying eggs and cows that stop producing milk."

hearingimpared

I guess those farmers have high end chickens and cows.:D

I-SIG

hearingimpared wrote: »

I guess those farmers have high end chickens and cows.:D

You laugh but cows and chickens producing milk and eggs is big business, especially to electric cooperatives, depending on where you live. Everyone benefits by happy cows and happy chickens.

Wes

I-SIG

Looks like I was spot on concerning adding a dedicated transformer for your house. Not bragging, just saying.

If/when I have the opportunity to do so, I'll likely try to upgrade my underground primary back to the source if I can, at least on a 200A system.

So Raife....are you gonna add the transformer??? If so, then I recommend spending a little extra and getting a 37.5kVA padmount over the 25.

Wes