I have a 2 channel challenge.

mantis
mantis Posts: 17,194
edited February 2009 in 2 Channel Audio
I want a system that can play every kind of music with no limitations. I want one that can play 20hz or lower and 20khz and higher with no problems. I want the ability to listen to LP , CD , SACD 2 ch ,and maybe a hard drive loseless.

Who hear can build this sytem is money is no object to a point? I would like a full system detail and why.

Thanks up front,

Dan
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Post edited by mantis on
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  • ShinAce
    ShinAce Posts: 1,194
    edited February 2009
    Are we agreed this system will involve heavy modification of the room itself? Or is it outside on flat grass?
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  • obieone
    obieone Posts: 5,077
    edited February 2009
    From what LITTLE I know, to get beyond the 20-20khz range you'll probably be looking at TUBES?!

    I just find this query a little odd, seeing as how you WORK at a hi-fi shop?!
    Couldn't you set up an evaluation room, and give us feedback?

    NOT trying to be a smart a$$, just confused.
    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited February 2009
    The Bryston/ PMC MB2 or BB5 active system will get you what you want.http://www.specifinder.com/pdfs/22339_pdf5.pdf Though you could get 20hz-20k coverage for far less.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
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  • rallyshark
    rallyshark Posts: 417
    edited February 2009
    Dear God:eek::eek::eek: I need some of those!:D
    Sony 40" LCD
    Sony DVPCX995V
    Sony PS3(games/media server)
    Sony PS2
    WD TV Live with 3TB
    Sanyo VCR
    Marantz SR6003
    Polk 11T(xover/RDO)
    RM20 5 pack
    OWM 5
    DUAL Micro Pro 1000
    Combastard Cable
    Harmony One
    When rapture comes, can I have your car?
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,029
    edited February 2009
    mantis wrote: »
    I want a system that can play every kind of music with no limitations. I want one that can play 20hz or lower and 20khz and higher with no problems.
    Good luck!
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • analog97
    analog97 Posts: 328
    edited February 2009
    1. Add two Townshend Super Tweeters to any large Polk SDA's. (up to 40KHz)
    2. Add a Paradigm Reference Sub. (down to 12 Hz)
    3. Make sure source components are good for the extremes in frequency you seek (most good ones are)

    About $4,000 (retail) will answer your quest. Good luck!

    IMHO, adding a really good sub will do more. But I'd like to to hear the Super Tweeters (can I??). Human hearing beyond 20KHz is limited at best.
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  • Systems
    Systems Posts: 14,873
    edited February 2009
    rallyshark wrote: »
    Dear God:eek::eek::eek: I need some of those!:D
    Me too.:DI'll take mine in Oak veneer.
    Testing
    Testing
    Testing
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,194
    edited February 2009
    obieone wrote: »
    From what LITTLE I know, to get beyond the 20-20khz range you'll probably be looking at TUBES?!

    I just find this query a little odd, seeing as how you WORK at a hi-fi shop?!
    Couldn't you set up an evaluation room, and give us feedback?

    NOT trying to be a smart a$$, just confused.
    Don't be confused. I have all my own opinions but wanted to hear some from other 2 channel guys. We have all kinds of badass gear to build a badass system but as any shop, we are limited to what we have. I have a few things I got my eyes on.

    I was really looking at what you guys are digging these days. Even the "PRO'S" can take some advise or suggestions...LOL.

    Dan
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited February 2009
    Dan,
    Are you going all out on a new system or something? To get below 20, you can always find a killer sub and a high quality super tweeter can be added to some speakers.
    If money was not an issue, I'd get me a complete MBL set up.

    Have you heard single driver speakers? I'd have to say they're my favorite now. A pair of single drivers won't do 20-20 but worth a listen.
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  • jm1
    jm1 Posts: 618
    edited February 2009
    Siriusly, the room's the thing!

    He hasn't fully updated the initial page listing; he's now using a Playback Designs MPS-5 digital source instead of EMM Labs stuff.
    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident.
    Arthur Schopenhauer
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  • Dennis Gardner
    Dennis Gardner Posts: 4,861
    edited February 2009
    20hz to 20khz is great for dogs and bats, I'd be more worried about how it replicates the female voice and piano. Specs are for geeks...........;)
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,646
    edited February 2009
    My system would be pretty cliche for me ;)

    Mains - Tyler Acoustics Woodmeres (Tri-Wire Option, external Crossovers)
    Main Amps - 6 Odyssey Stratos/Kismet Boards Extreme Mono Blocks
    CD Player - Symphonic Line CD Player
    Preamp - Odyssey Candela


    Should do the trick.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited February 2009
    mantis wrote: »
    I want a system that can play every kind of music with no limitations. I want one that can play 20hz or lower and 20khz and higher with no problems. I want the ability to listen to LP , CD , SACD 2 ch ,and maybe a hard drive loseless.

    Subscribe to "stereophile". They are always in that zone. I find it amazing there are so many high-end manufacturers of all types of equipment around.
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited February 2009
    Dennis Gardner wrote: »
    20hz to 20khz is great for dogs and bats, I'd be more worried about how it replicates the female voice and piano. Specs are for geeks...........;)

    Thank you. I hear 30-12K. Am I saying that the rest doesn't matter. Well I don't know, but I am in full agreement that the absolute 20-20 is BS...
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • ShinAce
    ShinAce Posts: 1,194
    edited February 2009
    Remember: it's -3dB below 20Hz and above 20 KHz.

    It's not a hard cut-off. Without the slope and your actual hearing losses known, you cannot guess as to whether you would notice a tone in that range.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited February 2009
    A live band in the living room?
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • SolidSqual
    SolidSqual Posts: 5,218
    edited February 2009
    Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »
    My system would be pretty cliche for me ;)

    Mains - Tyler Acoustics Woodmeres (Tri-Wire Option, external Crossovers)
    Main Amps - 6 Odyssey Stratos/Kismet Boards Extreme Mono Blocks
    CD Player - Symphonic Line CD Player
    Preamp - Odyssey Candela


    Should do the trick.

    I'd like to see you do that with no transformer hums.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited February 2009
    For starters,I would pick up those tube mono's that Ted,has up for sale.Doesn't get much better than that for quality tube power.Maybe a Raysonic or Mf KW SACD player,the Dodd passive pre,for LP's,no expert on that ,but a Linn Sonadeck,VPI,might be up your alley,speakers are too numerous,depending on the obvious,how much room you have,blah,blah,blah,....but some that do all kinds of music well,Legacy Focus HD,Montana Kas,Wilson Sophia,Vons VR5,SP Tech...and we could go on for days,and not even cover the monitor/subwoofer thing.Like you,I try and get an ear on as much as I can,and that being said,the legacy's I have,never dissapoint with anything I throw at them,classical,rock,blues,and they put a grin on my face whenever I sit down for a listen,and thats with mediocre sources,an avr and a universal player,so I can imagine the bump in SQ I could have with a Raysonic or a Dodd passive in the chain.Thing is Dan,at some point,you have to stop and just enjoy the music,there will always be something bigger,better,newer,out there,find what pleases your ears and stick to it.Yeah,easier said than done,I know,given your job and all,but you get my drift.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • ShinAce
    ShinAce Posts: 1,194
    edited February 2009
    steveinaz wrote: »
    A live band in the living room?

    That's what I was thinking.

    It's cheaper than the speakers suggested, and has zero noise.
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited February 2009
    Ok, how about something different? Stax SR-007MKII headphones
    with a Headamp Blue Hawaii amp. That will far exceed your specs.
    But beleive it or not, the amp/headphone combo will set you back
    about $7K. Drop in your favorite source and I/C set for say about
    $10k total. There, done!:D
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • ShinAce
    ShinAce Posts: 1,194
    edited February 2009
    I wonder if there is a headphone that truly has flat response over the range required.

    Don't tell me Shure E2C, I don't want to hear it(pun intended).
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited February 2009
    Music lives in the mids, with occasional visits to the extremes.

    That is all.

    RT1
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited February 2009
    mantis wrote: »
    I want a system that can play every kind of music with no limitations. I want one that can play 20hz or lower and 20khz and higher with no problems. I want the ability to listen to LP , CD , SACD 2 ch ,and maybe a hard drive loseless.

    Who hear can build this sytem is money is no object to a point? I would like a full system detail and why.

    Thanks up front,

    Dan

    Can't realistically or reasonably go much below 20 Hz with LP due to fundamental signal transduction resonance issues.

    RIAA EQ will also limit practical HF extension; but it's certainly possible to track and reproduce signals from vinyl up to ca. 50 kHz (the "compatible, discrete" CD-4 quadrophonic record standard required it).


    The EICO HF-85 preamp,e.g., was essentially flat to 100 kHz, and a well-implemented Williamson power amplifier circuit can be flat to 50 kHz or beyond at reasonable power levels. They were doing this in the 1950s.

    EDIT: P.S. reeltrouble1 is right (IMNSHO); if you don't get the midrange right, the rest really doesn't much matter.
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  • ShinAce
    ShinAce Posts: 1,194
    edited February 2009
    To ReelTrouble:

    Yes, but existence includes all information, including that beyond the range of human hearing.
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited February 2009
    Yeah, but we evolved senses that are particularly and peculiarly well-adapted to respond best to the most critical stimuli (e.g., visual spectral acuity that peaks in the "green" region of the visible spectrum; auditory acuity with a ca. 12 order of magnitude dynamic range, and peak sensitivity in the "midrange" -- i.e., the frequencies associated with the human voice).

    Evolutionarily speaking, there is no better test of the quality of artificial (electro-mechanical) reproduction of sound than the human voice.

    Western Electric/Bell Laboratories knew and understood this a century ago, and even their very early efforts were stunningly effective at delivering on this goal -- check the going prices on even ancient WE tubes, horns, drivers, and amplifiers if you have any questions about this :-)
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  • markmarc
    markmarc Posts: 2,309
    edited February 2009
    It takes all three ranges (bass, mids, highs) to make a quality recording. Limiting the range of any of the three takes a large chunk out of the listening experience.
    Review Site_ (((AudioPursuit)))
    Founder/Publisher Affordable$$Audio 2006-13.
    Former Staff Member TONEAudio
    2 Ch. System
    Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
    Digital: SimAudio HAD230 DAC, iMac 20in/Amarra,
    Speakers: Paradigm Performa F75, Magnepan .7, Totem Model 1's, ACI Emerald XL, Celestion Si Stands. Totem Dreamcatcher sub
    Analog: Technics SL-J2 w/Pickering 3000D, SimAudio LP5.3 phono pre
    Cable/Wires: Cardas, AudioArt, Shunyata Venom 3
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  • obieone
    obieone Posts: 5,077
    edited February 2009
    Wow. What a bunch of BUZZKILLS!!! Obviously, Mantis is just having some FUN, so....

    Here's what I came up with, based pretty much ONLY on wanting to get the widest freq responses:

    Pass Labs XP20, 2-60khz
    Manley Labs Neo Classic 500 Watt monoblocks, 10-30khz
    Cayin Phono One Pre, 10-25khz
    Polk Audio SDA SRS 1.2TL, 2.3, or 3.1
    Definitive Technologies ST, STS Super towers 14,16-30Khz, BP7000-70006SC's 11,13,15,17-30Khz

    As far as CDP & TT's, CDP's freq resp. was limited to 20-20khz so that's up to the OP to decide.
    No subwoofers listed due to the '2 Channel' in the thread title. NOT '2.1', '2'

    These choices were based SOLELY on the Manufacturers CLAIMS. Whether they're real or not is...???
    I refuse to argue with idiots, because people can't tell the DIFFERENCE!
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited February 2009
    Did someone say it did not?

    Music lives in mids, never be confused about this.

    That is all.

    RT1
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  • mhardy6647
    mhardy6647 Posts: 33,804
    edited February 2009
    obieone wrote: »
    No subwoofers listed due to the '2 Channel' in the thread title.

    umm... what's incompatible about subwoofers and 2-channel? I am now using a subwoofer with my Valencias in a decidedly two-channel milieu. Hell, when listening to FM, the living room hifi is mono (that'd be one channel, for those keeping score at home).

    If you can get desired FR output in a single speaker system, that's cool... if not (e.g., in the case of the Valencias, which have marvy midrange but really don't make any bass)... nothing wrong with adding a subwoofer.

    Heck, many vintage stereo pieces (e.g., the Scott LK-72 I have languishing in the basement) have "center channel" outputs which -- although not generally originally intended to support a subwoofer -- make a fine way to get signal to a powered subwoofer.

    The mixed-channel "subwoofer" approach was not uncommon in (typically inexpensive) console hi-fis in the early 1960s. At the other end of the spectrum, the Heathkit SS-1/SS-1B was a combination of a (rather nice, actually) small two-way bookshelf speaker system augmented with a large floorstanding box containing a massive Jensen (sub) woofer and (interestingly) a fine Jensen (super) tweeter. These were more or less popular in the 1950s (and the SS-1Bs go for pretty significant bucks on certain on-line auction venues).

    I'm just sayin'...
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited February 2009
    I have pretty much decided, at least for now the best way to do it is with a single panel that can dig, sans that a woofer with in-line transmission with a panel, personally I say bupkus to subs but have mellowed a bit and can at least forgive those who use subs in 2-channel rigs, afterall, only after forgiveness can their be hope for redemption.

    RT1
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