Should we bail out Ford,GM or AMEX ?

dkg999

It's amazing that the rest of the world wants to criticize and ridicule the USA, but they've all got their yachts tied up to our economy and the purchasing power of the US consumer. Something has to give eventually as the US consumer purchasing power of the last several years was supported by easy credit, not earned and owned monetary benefits. It's going to be brutal, but it's probably a necessary chain of events to get our economy back on track.

I think I'll go ahead and stop paying my mortgage now, as I don't want to miss out on being part of the class that gets bailed out. There could be some good deals to be had!

ben62670

Bob your are right about competitiveness being key. We would still have three to choose from. Our big companies need to restructure. We have the capability. We need to fix the overpaid workers. We need to have good design teams that are not hampered by the top dogs trying to squeeze too much out of too little trying to make more profit out of what they have. The big three see that we in general are tired of crap vehicles, and fixing their rep is long term, and they wont their money now. They don't care about the future. Well they are paying now for their greed. We are now paying for their greed. America still makes good products, but you do have to weed through some junk to find the gems. Buy American while you still have a choice;)

bigaudiofanatic

One word No.
If you want more reasons for it they have had there chance to get out of the gutter and fix there mistakes and what do they do go and do the same thing they did.

megasat16

bobman1235 wrote: »

Ralph Nader, is that you?

No. I am not and I am color natural.

Our country has been running on debt for so long that we don't even remember our national debt and kept borrowing. The Government had to borrow so much for so long it seems no longer matter for most people to keep funding for most programs and to keep the dice rolling (and this fueling for the whole economy).

People are the foundations of a nation's economy but being running on debt for so long and funding everything with debts but the reality starts kicking in when the debt pot is running dry.

And most people these days cares only about a quick buck in the pocket and it's mainly coming down to the making money. Our lifestyles has changed and the greed boils down the good old fashion way. There is no quick fix to the problems of our own devise.

By all means, support our own economy by buying all American made products before the imported goods.

ben62670

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

One word No.
If you want more reasons for it they have had there chance to get out of the gutter and fix there mistakes and what do they do go and do the same thing they did.

First buy American. If you think you can't find a comparable car for the same money you have not done your research.

Second the persons responsible for the failure of the big three need to go. Let them lose their homes. $20 an hour is more than fair for trained monkey work. If you want more than that get an education, or make your own business.

I certainly am not saying give the money away with no restructure.

MikeC78

The sad thing is there isn't too much American about the "BIG 3".

rayslifecycle

I fully support buying American - but how many parts in a GM, Ford or Chrysler car are made in America?

When the "middle class" existed - my grandfather made a living as a TV repair man - owned a house with several acres - cars - camper - sailboat.....

It was a time when those who worked hard lived well.

Now, the average person, even with a college degree and debt cannot make a decent living and every household requires two working parents to pay the rent....thus the children are left to the nanny state......and the family breaks down.

Please recognize the direction things are heading - and call these crooks what they are - crooks - all these bailouts are a transfer of wealth from us - to them.....

This is - IMHO - being patriotic - defending my right to live and make decisions without someone telling me I need permission - without a government preventing innovation from happening to protect a cultural elite who owns a car manufacturer or oil company - I want the american dream - and part of achieving that is to recognize the obstacles -

I want you all to know that I appreciate the interaction in this thread. It is rare that so many people can communicate and debate without resorting to Bill O'Reilly style brow beating......everything said here is valid - some people have differing opinions on what a government's duty in society is........that role was hotly debated in the Federalist and Anti-Federalist writings which led to the creation of our constitution.......many years ago.......

that debate is in many ways forgotten.........

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

That is why the constitution limited the role of the Federal Government.......and why we tried to break from the Queen in the first place.

Sami

bobman, you're right, there isn't really much you can do as far buying American. The problem lies in the whole social structure, the cost of living and what people demand as "their right" as far as wages go are a problem. America cannot compete with manufacturing as long as the labour has priced itself way out of the competition.

I am not saying the factory worker does not have a right to make a decent living, they should get whatever they can squeeze out, but please don't complain about work moving overseas if you do so. It is called Capitalism, plain and simple, as "American" as it can get.

ben62670

MikeC78 wrote: »

The sad thing is there isn't too much American about the "BIG 3".

I agree.
I mean buy American all the way around. We don't need to by anything outside the USA except some electronics for now. The government needs to step up, and let Americans know that there will be increasing tariffs on purchasing foreign goods for say ten years to come. Every year everyone will be paying increased tariffs for being stupid. This will give time to the USA to gear up for the future. Time to build correctly. To build strong. The unions were a good thing, but have drained us. We killed our own economy, and just like mindless whiners we want to place blame. We wanted the easy buck, and the cheap goods. Well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what is going on. We have to step back and look at the events leading up to this. Stop whining about who did it. It is done. It starts with NAFTA. Our big companies got into a thing where they were comfortable with just rolling out lame products, and did not care. Now with NAFTA we were free to purchase anything we wanted. The 80's were prime examples of crap American products;)

PhantomOG

clarknova_666 wrote: »

Now, the average person, even with a college degree and debt cannot make a decent living and every household requires two working parents to pay the rent....thus the children are left to the nanny state......and the family breaks down.

Sorry, I just don't buy that. And I think the problem lies in the definition of "decent". In my opinion, the average American's definition of a "decent" living is grossly exaggerated and is precisely why we have all the credit/banking/housing problems of today.

rayslifecycle

Sami - for so long I argued the same point you just did.......until I thought of this.

Why should our wages compete with a third world country unless we want to live like a third world country?

In this case - capitalism is bad for the average american........Remember "Fair Trade Laws" - - they were removed to enable the corporate capitalists to enact "Free Trade"........which is selling us out every day - "Fair Trade" used to protect Middle Class America but the elite couldn't make as much money -

The country, however, boasted the strongest economy ever - where is the economy now?

rayslifecycle

PhantomOG

your point is valid - our greed is our downfall - the word "deserve" is thrown around way too much.....

again - Great thread -

Sami

clarknova_666 wrote: »

Why should our wages compete with a third world country unless we want to live like a third world country?

You shouldn't if you can get away with it, but the point was not to cry about it if the company moves the job overseas. Buying American, which I think is a socialist ideal, would also mean many of us would have to settle for a much lesser standard of living.

rayslifecycle

I like to think that buying American is more like supporting your neighbor..........
I looked up the definition of socialism just now - and I am definitely advocating the opposite.

I also looked up a few more.

Socialism:
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done.

Capitalism
an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market.

Fascism:
1: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Democracy
1 a: government by the people ; especially : rule of the majority
b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
Read - Mob Rule

And My Favorite

Republic
1 a: a government having a chief of state who is not a monarch and who in modern times is usually a president; a political unit (as a nation) having such a form of government
b: a government in which supreme power resides in a body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by elected officers and representatives responsible to them and governing according to law - the constitution
This is the part where government protects your rights

Sami

If I voluntarily give a little extra just because it is made here, that's ok, but the problem is it's not only a little extra. Either you pay much more or you get lesser quality. The idea that I have to buy American product to support our economy fits the socialism definition above. It sure isn't capitalism.

Tariffs on importer goods fits also socialism more than capitalism as the government is forcing us to pay more, either in tariffs or by having to buy more expensive goods made in America. My money is that way redistributed to the American worker.

ben62670

clarknova_666 wrote: »

Why should our wages compete with a third world country unless we want to live like a third world country?

Third world wages Who ever implied Americans shoud make 3rd world wages. WOW! $20 an hour with benifits is not third world wages. Dude get a grip. What I am saying is unskilled labor does not deserve big dollars. Third world labor is more like $20 a week.

Sami wrote: »

If I voluntarily give a little extra just because it is made here, that's ok, but the problem is it's not only a little extra. Either you pay much more or you get lesser quality. The idea that I have to buy American product to support our economy fits the socialism definition above. It sure isn't capitalism.

Tariffs on importer goods fits also socialism as the government is forcing us pay more, either in tariffs or by having to buy more expensive goods made in America. My money is that way redistributed to the American worker.

Socialism means you can't buy foreign goods. You still would be able to buy foreign good, but you would pay tax on it. What besides electronics can America not compete with? What does America make that is so much more expensive, and/or crappy that it isn't worth supporting your country?

Jstas

clarknova_666, does your breath stink? Cause you seem to be talking out of your ****.

Number one, I think you have misused the reference "nanny state".

From Wikipedia: Nanny state is a derogatory term that refers to state protectionism, economic interventionism, or regulatory policies, and the perception that these policies are becoming institutionalized as common practice.

It's got nothing to do with kids having a nanny or being "latchkey".


Secondly, and this goes for anyone else that decides to bring up this argument, suppliers are not what you think they are. How many parts get made over seas? Probably a bunch of them. But you know what? If you buy an AC Delco part made in China for 50 U.S. dollars, less than a dollar of that price goes to the worker in China that built it. The rest of that dollar goes to China itself in taxes. Maybe 10 of those dollars goes to the infrastructure to get it to market, 20 of those dollars goes to the AC Delco overhead costs at all levels from executive to store clerk and the last bit goes to the profit coffers. So just because the part is made in China doesn't mean that the American company of AC Delco isn't adding to the bottom line of an American company. Yeah, big deal, we employ Chinese at slave labor because we demand cheap but also want big wages. The amount that actually goes to China is minuscule compared to what comes back in to this country.

Now, flip that around. Toyota builds a car here with parts from Japan. Japan made all the parts in their factories so everything but the transportation costs goes to Japan. The parts get here in a big erector set so the American workers can assemble it. It takes a group of say 100 workers about an hour to put together a $30,000 Toyota truck. At 20 bucks an hour you have about 2000 bucks in total wages. Add 150% of that to get the total overhead cost for each worker plus wages and you come out to 5,000 bucks that goes to this country. Now, since we passed lame tariff laws, because that truck is built here, Toyota doesn't have to pay a tariff on 30K. They only pay a tariff on the value of the parts coming in to this country, which is probably around 10K. So now you have a truck that has cost Toyota about 15-16K to build and get to market, tariffs and all and they are going to sell it to you for 30K. That means that aside from the 5K in wages and the 2500 in tariffs and transportation to market costs, every other red cent goes back to Toyota and Japan and in the pockets of Japanese people.

Where is the greater benefit? The $20 in the worker's pocket that barely pays for 5 gallons of gas or the $15K in profit margin that gets reinvested in the company and economy to grow the company and economy and create a few more jobs? Yeah, eff Japan and Europe and Korea and their cars and trucks. Cars and trucks are just one example of how that works.

So take you "How much of a Ford, GM or Chrysler is still American?" argument and shove it where the sun don't shine. As long as Ford, GM and Chrysler are American owned and contribute to the American GDP, the WHOLE GODDAMN THING IS AMERICAN! I don't care who built it where.

megasat16

Sami wrote: »

You shouldn't if you can get away with it, but the point was not to cry about it if the company moves the job overseas. Buying American, which I think is a socialist ideal, would also mean many of us would have to settle for a much lesser standard of living.

Care to enlighten me why is it socialism to buy American? Is the support one's own economy by buying the domestics products before the imported stuff is socialism? :eek:

Sami

megasat16 wrote: »

Care to enlighten me why is it socialism to buy American? Is the support one's own economy by buying the domestics products before the imported stuff is socialism? :eek:

Do you know how socialism "works"? Lets take the communism as the extreme example here. A brain surgeon and a bus driver in ideal communist state would get the same exact salary because everyone is equal, right? Now why would I go through all that hard work and stress if I could just drive a bus all day? That's the reason why it never works.

Now, if I make $100 an hour on a job that still profits very much from my expertise and experience. A worker in country X manufacturers goods for $5 an hour, while the worker in the USA demands $50 for the same exact job. If I am forced to pay the extra money it takes to use domestic labour, just to buy American, would that not be at least getting close to the socialist model?

You might not agree with me on this, but that's ok, at least I have explained my point. Some might say the job going to overseas makes this apples to oranges but as a capitalist consumer it would be my right to buy a competent product. You hear the same in every country, buy domestic, support your economy, it's not just the USA. In Europe, buy domestic, or at least buy something made in European Union (if the country is part of EU). It only goes so far and it's the same problem there, the workforce is cheaper elsewhere.

Jstas

Sami wrote: »

You might not agree with me on this, but that's ok, at least I have explained my point.

No, you haven't really because it seems that your analogy is false and your logic is broken. Care to try again?

rayslifecycle

Jstas
I did use "nanny state" incorrectly - and I apologize - sometimes I do reinterpret words because they sound like what I mean to say........

Your openning statement though is just wrong - and it makes it harder for me to see where you are coming from - each of us has our own experience and knowledge - if everyone's was the same - there would be no need to debate........

The body of your arguement makes a good point - and it pushes toward the validity of a bailout - which will save jobs - and will help many people.

Where I am having trouble is - with these comapnies - and this government so wildly out of control - is saving them protecting us, or is it protecting the corruption that put us all in this mess in the first place.

It is scary to think that giants like this could fall.....and what negative results may occur.......but the void left would be an opportunity to do right.....to make a competitive product......to try again.......

if we, our kids, and now our grandkids bail them out - then we are protecting a horribly corrupt system, and my experience has shown me that "change" will not happen.........

sucks2beme

Don't worry. The dollar is going to turn to toilet paper. When they
won't accept it in China, we'll have to make it here or do without.
It's sad it's come to this with no way out. No factories=3rd world economy.
And GM unions and management are both equally useless. They
might have a chance with only one problem, but together they spell doom.
Look at all the non-union companies out there. That's all going to China,too.
After there's no factories, goods are trucked by Mexican truck drivers,
tech support and white collar jobs are sent to India, and contruction is being
done by illegals, there's not much left but a greeter at Walmart.
Sound extreme? Am I a bad person for thinking like this? And I hope I am
wrong.

Jstas

For those who are seemingly incapable of understanding the depth of the problems from the housing market to the plight of the "Big 3", I will offer another source stating things "matter of factly" for your perusal and hopefully understanding.

First off, an Autoblog article:

Many analysts and commentators have seemingly been cheering for the imminent demise of the Detroit-based automakers. Something that needs to be realized amidst all this talk of low-interest loans and bailout money is how interconnected the auto industry is and how it affects our economy as a whole. Just like the global economy where the health of one country impacts all others, the same is true of the auto industry. It's been estimated that if General Motors fails, it will quickly cost the United States anywhere from 2.5-3 million jobs. Beyond the people directly employed by the automakers are direct suppliers and their sub-suppliers, many of which have been on the brink for years already. In addition, there are the tens of thousands of small and large businesses in Michigan communities and elsewhere whose existence depends on patronage from the people working in auto factories.

Even foreign automakers will feel the pain of Detroit's demise in a big way. Toyota, Nissan and Honda have all been hammered by the credit crunch in the last couple of months and their sales will likely drop further if people lose their jobs due to the failure of one or more of the Detroit automakers. The suppliers that will surely fail also supply Japanese-, German- and South Korean-owned factories in the U.S., so their collapse will have a huge impact on companies not based in Detroit.

Yes, the Detroit 3 have made a lot of stupid product decisions over the years and wasted a lot of money, but allowing the free market to pull them under will create a ripple effect that reaches more than just the shores of the Detroit River.

The article that Autoblog references.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081112/AUTO01/811120396/1148/&source=nletter-business

If neither of these puts things in perspective for you, then I don't know how else to help you understand.

NotaSuv

PhantomOG wrote: »

Call me crazy, but I think its this "can't do" frame of mind that's a big part of the problem. All of my life experience has been the opposite. The USA is the best place in the world for someone who wants to work hard and make something of themselves in my opinion.

I do know one thing, most people who think they "can't" usually "don't".

Totally agree here....and if you think that AmeriKa is not all that great there is nothing stopping you from moving to what you feel might be a better country that gives you the chance to better yoursel there are no chains keeping you here....you are free to leave at anytime...no locked doors...BS about not being able to change your status....I have spent a good part of my life just breaking even....maybe mid middle class at best...enough to live ok and from check to check...I went back to school got 2 degrees working days and going to school at night and I am now the Cheif Operating Officer of a company that will do at 25 million in sales and projected to do 35M next year......its all in the attitude and mindset....Yes you can better yourself...and yes I think this country is one of the better places where this can happen....yes you can sit on your **** and complain or get off your **** and make change...as the "change fairy isnt going to do it for you"

Sami

Jstas wrote: »

No, you haven't really because it seems that your analogy is false and your logic is broken. Care to try again?

I have but I wouldn't expect any different response from you, you are...well, you. Even if the analogy is false and logic broken buying American product at non-competitive price is anti-capitalist.

Sherardp

Lasareath wrote: »

Amex too?, those **** never gave me a card, so I have to say NO.

Their employees can go work for all the other credit card companies.

Well said, however I did have their card, just didnt like the services. Not to mention its not widely accepted in Asia Pacific Region.

Jstas

Sami wrote: »

I have but I wouldn't expect any different response from you, you are...well, you. Even if the analogy is false and logic broken buying American product at non-competitive price is anti-capitalist.

See, the other thing you are doing is called a straw-man argument. You are making assumptions about others points of view just to bust down those assumptions to discredit arguments already made. It leads to exactly what you have already purported, false analogies and broken/circular logic.

On top of that you are committing another fallacy by deliberately attacking me personally to attempt to discredit me. You, and quite a few others here, do this consistently to many people, not just me. This is why these threads turn out the way they do.

You should restate what you are trying to say and this time, use examples based in reality and backed by actual fact and not your misguided and ill-informed opinions.

PhantomOG

How will a bailout solve the problems of the Big 3? That's what I want to know. A one time payout will keep the paychecks rolling for a few more years, but what fundamental change will happen at the Big 3 that will turn them into profitable businesses? If there is no change than the whole automotive industry and sub-industries will need a continual taxpayer payout system.

megasat16

Sami wrote: »

Do you know how socialism "works"? Lets take the communism as the extreme example here. A brain surgeon and a bus driver in ideal communist state would get the same exact salary because everyone is equal, right? Now why would I go through all that hard work and stress if I could just drive a bus all day? That's the reason why it never works.

Now, if I make $100 an hour on a job that still profits very much from my expertise and experience. A worker in country X manufacturers goods for $5 an hour, while the worker in the USA demands $50 for the same exact job. If I am forced to pay the extra money it takes to use domestic labour, just to buy American, would that not be at least getting close to the socialist model?

You might not agree with me on this, but that's ok, at least I have explained my point. Some might say the job going to overseas makes this apples to oranges but as a capitalist consumer it would be my right to buy a competent product. You hear the same in every country, buy domestic, support your economy, it's not just the USA. In Europe, buy domestic, or at least buy something made in European Union (if the country is part of EU). It only goes so far and it's the same problem there, the workforce is cheaper elsewhere.

In fact, I know quite well about socialism because I was born in one of these countries. Socialism goes a lot deeper than what you have said and it doesn't work for many reason which has to do with the people living there. But that not being the point and not about discussion of socialism, I think I somewhat agree with you. The idea is to support our own economy while still supporting the competitiveness in the open market will allow you to have a choice if you want to. That is essentially the theme of the Democracy.

We should keep the competition in the domestic market by making sure that GM, Chrysler and Ford exists in the business while still allowing the global makers such as Toyota, Hyundai and BMW to have some leverages in our market.

I think supporting our own economy by choosing our products is a good thing because by choosing products manufactured in USA ensures that the funds we have spend are keeping in the loops here in the U.S.A and doesn't go offshore from where we will be burrowing again to feed our family. Please keep in mind that the investors overseas use the same money to lend us with interest.

But anyhow, I fully support the idea of whole Global Economy but we need to be wise where we spend our money on the products. But mostly, all parts are made overseas these days and got assembled here so supporting our own name brand products may not be so disadvantages to Global Economy.

ND13

jdhdiggs wrote: »

ClarkNova- I'd love to agree with you but heavy industry is the core of our standing in the world. If there was a true world war, it would be companies like Ford, GM, etc.. that would be building our war machine (even though they currently have very little involvement). Aircraft, Automotive, Steel, and Shipmaking infrastructures should never leave our shores. Sure, we can allow competition, but we still need the domestic factories.

Letting them fail and the factories to empty would destroy that infrastructure and put 2.5Million people in the unemployment lines... Not good...

We have a winner!!!