Should we bail out Ford,GM or AMEX ?

NotaSuv

ben62670 wrote: »

Example
You make $40,000 a year, and you buy a $350,000 home your credit sucks... Just because someone is willing to give you money doesn't mean you should take it if you can't pay it back. Tons of people with bad credit, and job history went out and bought nice homes beyond their means. Do you really think they should be bailed out?

hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm a tough question to have a blanket answer to, as the BANK was at fault for the original loan..why did they make the loan..GREED

The companies who bought these bundled loans are also at fault...but they bought them because of GREED

did some buyers know going in they were over their head? you bet they did

but there are also as many UNEDUCATED buyers who didnt really understand what they were getting into....

the root of this finanical meltdown all boils down to one thing

GREED

obieone

I say NO!!! Everyones to blame, but I have a REAL problem enabling unskilled union labor making $78/ hr. I make less than 25% of that amt. and I have an actual skill, not just picking up bench seats, and placing them in a roving chassis!
If those union people don't like their jobs, they can QUIT!!!

megasat16

NotaSuv wrote: »

hhhhhhhhmmmmmmmm a tough question to have a blanket answer to, as the BANK was at fault for the original loan..why did they make the loan..GREED

The companies who bought these bundled loans are also at fault...but they bought them because of GREED

did some buyers know going in they were over their head? you bet they did

but there are also as many UNEDUCATED buyers who didnt really understand what they were getting into....

the root of this finanical meltdown all boils down to one thing

GREED

+1 and let me add - the greed of the few paid back by many hand working individuals and families tax dollars. Damn these suckers!

4406bbl

I am pretty sure the Toyota Sequoia suv got the worst mileage of any common suv made last year,so it is not all about who builds what how or when. People were standing in line to buy pickups and suvs until gas went up last year,an automaker cannot change production that fast. I say get rid of the unions,retirement plans,overpaid ceos and then help them out. The thing that pisses me off the most is my neighbors,all union workers,all driving Hondas and Toyotas,then they **** that their 401k is going down, benefits are cut, less hours, no overtime, I tell them go look in the mirror and you have found the problem. PLEASE tell me how a union member can not support a fellow union member with their own dollars, yet have the balls to want me the non union taxpayer to bail them out? We are finding out what happens when you send money by the shovelful to foriegn countries,we screw ourselves. We HAVE to fix the autos as without them the outside suppliers dry up and then the defense of our country is at stake,problem is once you start where does it stop.

Danny Tse

I'd agree to a government bail out for the Big 3....but only with the strictest set of conditions (such as agreeing to MUCH tougher CAFE fuel economy standards), a timetable for guarantee repayment for the loans, and approved business plans. I'm not well-informed enough to give specific opinions but some of the top management needs to be fired and without any "golden parachute" (this should be one of the conditions for any bailout). I'd even suggest that the gov't should broker loans from foreign automakers, such as Toyota, Honda or Hyundai, to the Big 3 if there're takers. I also think the UAW need to make more concession about payments to retirees as a condition for the bailout. I've heard that the collapse of GM alone may impact about 3.5 million people, and with the dire situation of certain state's unemployment insurance (California's unemployment insurance will run out of cash early next year), a collapse of any of the Big 3 will impact more than just those connected to the auto industry, directly or indirectly.

jdhdiggs

Something should be done because keeping the automobile industry is a national security issue (IMHO). That said, they shouldn't receive a dime until they eliminate the practices/contracts/etc... that got them into this mess... Yeah, I'm looking at you UAW...

I'd have to go read up on the bankruptcy rules but from my understanding, that would be the better option at this point as it would make the companies smaller and stronger and release the stranglehold the UAW contracts have on them.

ben62670

Buy American!

bobman1235

megasat16 wrote: »

But if you consider, a Government is a governing body who cares the social welfare of it's citizen including the living conditions such as housing and job security and health care.

Talk like this assumes :
1) That the government has unlimited resources to help everyone; they do not. The money comes from somewhere, namely you and I. Considering that before any of these problems the government already couldn't make due with the amount of money they had, I don't see where all this new money will come from.

2) That social programs where the government gives certain parts of society money actually work. We've been doing it for years and years, and the problem has continued to get WORSE, not better. What makes this situation different?

sucks2beme

Even Toyota screwed up. They opened a new "BIG TRUCK" factory
in San Antonio right at the peak of the gas hikes. That factory just
came of shutdown.http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/6105787.html
It amazes me that all these guys were still pushing SUVs and trucks(including
the Japanese) after it was obvious that fuel prices were killing us.
The big three have never taken small cars seriously. The only GM small
car worth crap is the Cobalt.

disneyjoe7

Bail out only if it's stock in the company.

Then if such a high bail out is needed then "We" have say what the top brass should get for pay.

rayslifecycle

All bailouts are unconstitutional - and there is good reason for this - our government is supposed to be restrained to prevent corruption. Over the past 100 years we have had a massive amount of unrestrained federal involvment - which has led to unrestrained corruption.

These companies have done nothing but rip off the american public for over half a century and stiffled all innovation and competition leading us to this point: bailing out companies who don't perform to make a few CEOs more rich and powerful.

Let them die and the average american will have a better chance at creating innovative solutions and starting new companies without getting pooped on by an oversized corrupt federal government and monopolistic corporate interests.

Restore the Republic - Restore the American Dream - educate yourselves about what is really happening here - take responsibility for your life and your government.........or accept what you're fed and eat it.

disneyjoe7

sucks2beme wrote: »

Even Toyota screwed up. They opened a new "BIG TRUCK" factory
in San Antonio right at the peak of the gas hikes. That factory just
came of shutdown.http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/6105787.html
It amazes me that all these guys were still pushing SUVs and trucks(including
the Japanese) after it was obvious that fuel prices were killing us.
The big three have never taken small cars seriously. The only GM small
car worth crap is the Cobalt.

And as gas prices have lowered some what's selling the small Eco cars or the big trucks? Its the trucks, Big Trucks is what America wants now make then more efficient and we are all happy.

4406bbl

sucks2beme wrote: »

Even Toyota screwed up. They opened a new "BIG TRUCK" factory
in San Antonio right at the peak of the gas hikes. That factory just
came of shutdown.http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/business/6105787.html
It amazes me that all these guys were still pushing SUVs and trucks(including
the Japanese) after it was obvious that fuel prices were killing us.
The big three have never taken small cars seriously. The only GM small
car worth crap is the Cobalt.

Because americans were buying them hand over fist,they wanted big cars,thats what I want too.

jdhdiggs

ClarkNova- I'd love to agree with you but heavy industry is the core of our standing in the world. If there was a true world war, it would be companies like Ford, GM, etc.. that would be building our war machine (even though they currently have very little involvement). Aircraft, Automotive, Steel, and Shipmaking infrastructures should never leave our shores. Sure, we can allow competition, but we still need the domestic factories.

Letting them fail and the factories to empty would destroy that infrastructure and put 2.5Million people in the unemployment lines... Not good...

BigMac

ben62670 wrote: »

Example
You make $40,000 a year, and you buy a $350,000 home your credit sucks... Just because someone is willing to give you money doesn't mean you should take it if you can't pay it back. Tons of people with bad credit, and job history went out and bought nice homes beyond their means. Do you really think they should be bailed out?

I think that everyone who borrowed or spent beyond their means should be held accountable for their own bad decisions 100%. The way our society works now and its spending habits remind me of the ol' Popeye cartoon.........I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. Imo it ought to be the other way around. If you have the money then buy it but if you don't have the money then do not borrow to get it. Save your money.............then you will have more time to think things through. You will have time to see if it is a wise expenditure and in the end you will appreciate whatever you bought even more. Way to easy to whip out the ol' plastic and put the purchase on there with no thought going to how much debt you are actually accumulating. Now if you are financing a home or other large purchase then it is your and the lenders responsibility to make sure the debt can be repaid. Until this HUGE financial crisis made the news every other second people could get huge amounts of cash for almost nothing. Now everyone is running around like a chicken with its head cut off looking for a way out. Guess what, those of you that took the easy way in are going to have to take the hard road out. You made your damn bed now lie in it.

I for one am tired of wondering about my economic future and where all my money is going and if I will have any in the future. I will not bail out the idiots/morons/tards/dumbasses that made these poor decisions. Just how many are we the American people going to actually bail out.....where will it stop??? I don't see it stopping anytime soon because the majority of people are in this situation. If we continue to do it ALL of us will suffer in the long run. Accountability I say, Accountability!! Let the chips fall where they may.

Danny Tse

4406bbl wrote: »

I am pretty sure the Toyota Sequoia suv got the worst mileage of any common suv made last year,so it is not all about who builds what how or when. People were standing in line to buy pickups and suvs until gas went up last year,an automaker cannot change production that fast. I say get rid of the unions,retirement plans,overpaid ceos and then help them out. The thing that pisses me off the most is my neighbors,all union workers,all driving Hondas and Toyotas,then they **** that their 401k is going down, benefits are cut, less hours, no overtime, I tell them go look in the mirror and you have found the problem. PLEASE tell me how a union member can not support a fellow union member with their own dollars, yet have the balls to want me the non union taxpayer to bail them out? We are finding out what happens when you send money by the shovelful to foriegn countries,we screw ourselves. We HAVE to fix the autos as without them the outside suppliers dry up and then the defense of our country is at stake,problem is once you start where does it stop.

I think it's easy to blame the foreign brands, but it's companies like Toyota and Hyundai which are building new auto plants in the US and employing Americans. However, these companies' overheads are much lower than any of the Big 3 because the lack of "legacy cost". Obviously, if the foreign brands can make a profit building highly reliable and affordable cars in the US, while paying their employees a more-than-reasonable wage, so can the Big 3.

Btw, did you guys realize Toyota squeezed every vowel into "Sequoia"? That's efficiency!

4406bbl

Danny Tse wrote: »

I think it's easy to blame the foreign brands, but it's companies like Toyota and Hyundai which are building new auto plants in the US and employing Americans. However, these companies' overheads are much lower than any of the Big 3 because the lack of "legacy cost". Obviously, if the foreign brands can make a profit building highly reliable and affordable cars in the US, which paying their employees a more-than-reasonable wage, so can the Big 3.

Btw, did you guys realize Toyota squeezed every vowel into "Sequoia"? That's efficiency!

Toyota took the name of a tree and now they are smarter than the american car makers? Ok I guess so.

bobman1235

4406bbl wrote: »

Toyota took the name of a tree and now they are smarter than the american car makers? Ok I guess so.

Id' say they're smarter because they're making a good profit, and the American automakers need government assistance to even stay in the game. But that's just a thought.

dholmes

Why not,we want to make sure those non-educated workers get there 30-40 $ an hr.

rayslifecycle

If we are in a world war - it is our fault - it is our greed as a country that will/is putting us in that situation..........and right now that greed is propagated unto us by Madison Ave with federal encouragement because it is good for them - the ones it isn't good for is We The People..........

I know I am in a minority here - but most just spew what they read in the paper/ see on TV - and all that BS is spewed by a very small and focused group of people - I don't know that my solutions are right - but I know what's propagated by the largest propaganda machine the world has ever seen is not good for me or my neighbor.....

4406bbl

clarknova_666 wrote: »

If we are in a world war - it is our fault - it is our greed as a country that will/is putting us in that situation..........and right now that greed is propagated unto us by Madison Ave with federal encouragement because it is good for them - the ones it isn't good for is We The People..........

I know I am in a minority here - but most just spew what they read in the paper/ see on TV - and all that BS is spewed by a very small and focused group of people - I don't know that my solutions are right - but I know what's propagated by the largest propaganda machine the world has ever seen is not good for me or my neighbor.....

YES the rich run the world and we are allowed to live and pay taxes in it.

rayslifecycle

4406bbl - you've got it right -

Does it matter if we like it or not?

Is it worth doing something about?

I find it depressing that we were taught we can do anything we want because this is "America" and then I find out that "Amerika" is one of the hardest places in the world to change your "status".

I find it even more depressing that everyone's american dream has been enlivened by the recent election of the Council on Foreign Relations candidate who is going to ensure that we continue to be allowed to live and pay taxes.

megasat16

bobman1235 wrote: »

Talk like this assumes :
1) That the government has unlimited resources to help everyone; they do not. The money comes from somewhere, namely you and I. Considering that before any of these problems the government already couldn't make due with the amount of money they had, I don't see where all this new money will come from.

2) That social programs where the government gives certain parts of society money actually work. We've been doing it for years and years, and the problem has continued to get WORSE, not better. What makes this situation different?

1. Yes! That's being the point. The Government is supported by it's citizen by means of tax dollar. Therefore, it should spend wisely on the welfare of it's common citizen such as I've already discussed. It's not supposed to give away the tax dollar to the morons and CEO who is going to bust on the 5 Stars Hotel and Mega-Yatch. And everyone including our own Government has limited resources, and that's why the Government should select and rescue the hard working and good earnest people in this crisis. Yes, I know the Government is running in Red Inks for many years and will be in many more years to come. No new money will come from anywhere unless the taxes has been increased. No one likes that idea so it's almost out of the picture. So, the other thing left is to get re-organize and re-structure and spend wisely. And the good people deserves a good rescue more than the stupid morons who are living beyond their means and treating their credit history and houses as ATM or advance paychecks.

2. The most programs backed by Government for so many years has been getting worse because the demoralization of the people who are driven by greed and wanting more $ for their service. Wanting more the service is not a bad thing considering the services or facilities are improved as well. And guess what, there is an inflation for all the basic necessities. If the price for services and goods are adjusted to inflation, the greedy CEOs also included a very small fractions added to cushion the further inflation and that's how the most gigantic companies are making their billions in profits. The government does not regulate these things and all back to the Free Market. One thing adds to another and we are on the verge of the deep recession now. It's now for the massive market correction by nature.

bobman1235

Ralph Nader, is that you?

PhantomOG

clarknova_666 wrote: »

I find it depressing that we were taught we can do anything we want because this is "America" and then I find out that "Amerika" is one of the hardest places in the world to change your "status".

Call me crazy, but I think its this "can't do" frame of mind that's a big part of the problem. All of my life experience has been the opposite. The USA is the best place in the world for someone who wants to work hard and make something of themselves in my opinion.

I do know one thing, most people who think they "can't" usually "don't".

Jstas

I think that there are too many people in this country that have no 'efffing clue how their country works and it affects everything from opinions they have to how they vote. THAT is the real travesty because then things like reverse amortization loans can be made to "look good" to someone who lacks a clue.

Buy American is not an antiquated and outdated sentiment. It's God's honest truth. Buying American supports American business which contributes to the American GDP which in turn strengthens our economy and provides growth. Providing growth provides NEW jobs and retains old jobs.

The "global market" is a myth. If there was a global market, we wouldn't have the NYSE or the NASDAQ, or the Tokyo Stock Exchange or the London Stock Exchange or Euronext. We'd have a global stock exchange and a global bank instead of a U.S. Federal Reserve or a World Bank.

Buy an American made product, keep an American made job. People drive economies, not banks and investors. Banks and investors don't exist without the common bank account because then there is no capital to borrow or lend against. You employ the common man, he has money to put in those common bank accounts. An unemployed man does not increase in value. Buying American gives Americans jobs which drives the economy. Bottom line.



As far as the strategic advantage of the Big 3, that is honestly the BEST reason to bail them out. I don't care how big Toyota is or Hyundai or Fuji Heavy Industries or what have you. No other place in the world has the ability to grind the gears of industry like the United State and a good 50-60% of that ability is in the hands of the Big 3. No Big 3, no war machine. We'd have to expend 3 times as much money to build factories, tool them up, train people to work in them and then, finally, produce something. It is much cheaper in the long run to just temporarily federalize Ford and tell they you're building jeeps, GM, you're building tanks and Chrysler, you're building airplanes and you're all gonna like it.

On top of that, the biggest reason to bail them out is that $50 billion in bail out is vastly cheaper than dealing with the social services benefits that would be claimed if 20-30% of the nation's workforce was put out of work.

ben62670

PhantomOG wrote: »

Call me crazy, but I think its this "can't do" frame of mind that's a big part of the problem. All of my life experience has been the opposite. The USA is the best place in the world for someone who wants to work hard and make something of themselves in my opinion.

I do know one thing, most people who think they "can't" usually "don't".

Yep. If you think you are hopelessly held down by the man get out of one of the best countries in the whole freaken world.

Jstas wrote: »

I think that there are too many people in this country that have no 'efffing clue how their country works and it affects everything from opinions they have to how they vote. THAT is the real travesty because then things like reverse amortization loans can be made to "look good" to someone who lacks a clue.

People should have a clue before voting:( The average American has no idea what they are talking about, and people praise them for going out and voting blindly

markmarc

I look at this from a National Security Issue as much as an economic one. If the big three disappear who will build the vehicles needed for the military? Thinking deeper, would you want a company from another country in charge of massive military contracts during a large war?

A powerful country (economically/politically) needs a strong manufacturing base in order to grow. Losing the big three would mark a huge shift to auto construction in China and India. We need to depend on our own factories and workers.

We've bailed out foolish white shirted gamblers in the financial quarter, so why not help the hard-working blue collar workers by propping up their companies? In addition, what are the costs of unemployment for 3-5 million american workers who will lose their jobs. On top of that is the fact that the gov't will have to step in to rescue the pension fund. Then the states that get hit the hardest.

I'd rather loan out money to businesses for job creation than to start something new thru public works projects. But the unions are going to have to step up and accept another round of paycuts in return for profit sharing down the line.

In return, all permanently closed factories will be given to the gov't, but any epa-mandated cleanup will be paid by the companies. The gov't should also replace their fleet vehicles with new models.

We've opened up Pandora's box with bailouts, the way forward is to figure out the best path both short and long term for the country. IMHO, the more done on the front end by supporting/loaning businesses , the less that is spent on gov't works projects.

bobman1235

So at what point do you STOP buying American? In some cases the non-American product is half the price and better made. It's a shame, it shouldn't be that way, but if Americans can't create a competitive product (in WHATEVER marketplace, I'm not talking about GM specifically here) at a competitive price, how long do you keep paying more for the inferior product just to buy American? It's idiocy.

At some point almost every system will right itself. If American car companies, for example, cannot produce a competitive product at a competitive price while still making a profit, they will fold. And yes it will be a very bad thing for the economy, but at some point someone will create an American car company that IS competitive. Falsely keeping these things alive when they don't work isn't helping anything, it's prolonging the inevitable. They have to adapt to the marketplace or die, not be kept on life support while continuing the actions that got them to this point in the first place, whatever those actions may be.

rayslifecycle

A positive frame of mind is a great place to start - but recognizing the matrix in which you live will allow you to break out of it - I'm not Nero - but the analogy is sound......

Ignorance is bliss......has never been more true -

However, we are getting to the point where surviving, if not flourishing, is going to require more self-sufficiency, effort, and education then before. Our populace is becoming more enslaved to "the man" through debt and obligation.....and they're complaining about it without knowing what to do about it - just that someone needs to "save them".

I am coming across negative and I apologize - I am one who "does" and am doing quite well - but a lot of what I read on this thread is people saying that government "takes care" of the people - the corporation......and I felt it necessary to offer another suggestion...... that to take care is to take control.......