Violence problem

reeltrouble1

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/ngic/violent_gangs.htm

The problem with gangs continues to increase, these people want to hurt you. We all need to do our part despite the danger, I encourage everyone to work with there local LEO's. Here is a link to information.

RT1

Face

There is also the problem of many local governments and the press not willing to admit that there is a problem in their own backyard.

ND13

IIRC, during FEB 08, Indy already surpassed it's murder rate of the previous year.

Early B.

I worked on a gang project this past year. Gang activity is much bigger than most people realize. The biggest problem, in my opinion, is that gang culture has become a major part of youth culture, regardless of background, ethnicity, income, etc. Check out how kids talk, dress, and act today. They are mimicking music videos. MTV and such is the devil's playground. Children are growing up in dysfunctional households and they look for a sense of belonging elsewhere. If the family won't provide it, gangs will. A downturn in the economy doesn't help, either.

Keep in mind that most gang members aren't violent -- they're wannabes who are trying to survive and feel protected. We have to be careful not to indict every child involved in a gang. Not every kid in a gang is a criminal. They're just misguided. And once you get in, it's very difficult to get out.

Also keep in mind that gangs function on all levels. You'll find some of the most ruthless gang members on Wall Street or in the White House. Cheney is straight up gangster!!

bobman1235

Early B. wrote: »

Children are growing up in dysfunctional households and they look for a sense of belonging elsewhere. If the family won't provide it, gangs will. A downturn in the economy doesn't help, either.

Ding ding. There are a million factors, but IMHO this is the biggest. Kids lack a strong family environment at home so they find a substitute.

NotaSuv

bobman1235 wrote: »

Ding ding. There are a million factors, but IMHO this is the biggest. Kids lack a strong family environment at home so they find a substitute.

So true............ I do alot of pro bono work with lower income families and sadly most are single parent households,parent is working 6-7 days a week just to break even at best.......there is no supervision or guidence for these kids. Mom or Dad is never around and they turn to gang life because they want to be a part of a family...and gangs do offer that illusion to them, especially the younger ones. Gang bonds are much stronger than the family bonds they have and the gang becomes their family.....this is based upon my own 15 years plus experince working as a mentor...

reeltrouble1

No doubt the community needs desperately to get involved at all levels and some are trying but like anything it takes money and our money needs to be well spent with effective oversight. Some of the best programs I have seen involve LEO's and community based programs, one goes after the gangs the other try to cut the supply line of the young people. Unfortunately, by the time they get to me its too late for most of them. We are very definetly beginning to see an increase in criminal families who are gang involved, going to prison is just part of life and to be expected, almost wanted as a badge status within the gang, so whether in prison or out the support of the gang is paramount in the individual's life. This is taking a toll on our society on so many levels.

zingo

Seattle's gang problem is also growing and our lovely mayor doesn't/won't notice. The latest local story is that a street musician who was at every Seattle sporting and music event was killed last week in a random gang beating as he waited for a bus. It's becoming a problem...

RIP Ed McMichael

Early B.

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

No doubt the community needs desperately to get involved at all levels and some are trying but like anything it takes money and our money needs to be well spent with effective oversight.

There will never be enough money set aside by the feds and private foundations to curb this problem, so we have to work with what we have. This may sound very sappy, but what these children need is for someone to love and care about them. Mentor programs, especially by ex-gang members, work well. But, as we said, the problem stems primarily from broken families. So how do we fix the family? Well, that's the million dollar question. IMO, it's gonna require a huge cultural paradigm shift. There needs to be a stigma associated with babies having babies, unwed moms, and single parent homes. That'll take a couple of decades to instill and religious institutions will need to assume a greater responsibility for making it happen.

reeltrouble1

we spend our money based upon where we place our priorities, however, I think just throwing money in some "war on gangs" would be futile. These gangs are much better organized, smarter and wealthier than many folks think or possibly they just do not want to know, the gangs have networked across the country, they work in different ways but are every bit as much of a threat as international terrorist activity to our nation.

Look at the proliferation of gang activity into professional sports, where do you think that is headed? what sector of youth looks towards that? how have gangs have adopted sports team like paraphanalia? what do athletes and gang members have in common? just one example in one area, the assault of gang activity on society has many prongs at different levels. Schools are finally starting to admit to having a problem with "bullying" which links to early gang type activity. I agree the paradigm needs to shift. So then the binds must be put into place to cause the shift, we can choose the binds or let them occur naturally, I would rather manipulate them.

As some have said its an issue easy to turn a blind eye to by the power players. Sure the parent(s) bear the responsiblity or bulk of it, but just identifying that does nothing except give everyone a place to put some blame, we need a real effort after putting the responsiblities in place.

I certainly do not have the answers only suggestions, most who know me recoginze I will meet violence with the same, thank goodness others folks are around with a different answer before I blow everybody including myself up.

RT1

bobman1235

Early B. wrote: »

There needs to be a stigma associated with babies having babies, unwed moms, and single parent homes. That'll take a couple of decades to instill and religious institutions will need to assume a greater responsibility for making it happen.

That's a tough sell to the same religions that tell you contraception is a sin. A lot of these problems would be lessened if there were just fewer of these families with 19 kids they can't afford or keep track of.

ben62670

bobman1235 wrote: »

That's a tough sell to the same religions that tell you contraception is a sin. A lot of these problems would be lessened if there were just fewer of these families with 19 kids they can't afford or keep track of.

Bob this one gets twisted all the time. It is not the contraceptive that is a sin it is the premarital sex that is a sin. The problem is giving away condoms in places like public schools is saying sex is OK for kids. The problem is bad parenting. Can we change the parents? No. These kids need to be educated to the real facts of gang life at a real young age. What it is like to sit in jail for many years, to be disabled because you were shot... The messages need not be all doom, and gloom. They also need to know if they aspire to do well they can make it out of the ghetto. The sad thing is the gangs are spreading into the suburbs.

bobman1235

I grew up Catholic, so I only know their crazy rules and not those of other Christian sects. But for Catholics, using contraception is a sin. Even if you're married.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

But the rest of what you said is absolutely right. Education is the key. Unfortunately that education really needs to come from the parents or some parental figure, and that's where most of it is lacking.

megasat16

Early B. wrote: »

Also keep in mind that gangs function on all levels. You'll find some of the most ruthless gang members on Wall Street or in the White House. Cheney is straight up gangster!!

For this part, I concur! Evil exists in all levels of society and in part of me too.

Bwa hahahahahaha:D::p

ben62670

bobman1235 wrote: »

I grew up Catholic, so I only know their crazy rules and not those of other Christian sects. But for Catholics, using contraception is a sin. Even if you're married.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Birth_Control.asp

But the rest of what you said is absolutely right. Education is the key. Unfortunately that education really needs to come from the parents or some parental figure, and that's where most of it is lacking.

I did not know that the Catholics had that rule Thats ****. That to me would be like saying to a surgeon don't where gloves

I have spent some time with inner city kids, and they start off sweet, out a big smile on your face, and then just turn. It really sucks that the parents of a lot of these kids are not doing their job. Yes I do understand that even good parents re losing their kids to gangs:(

NotaSuv

zingo wrote: »

Seattle's gang problem is also growing and our lovely mayor doesn't/won't notice. The latest local story is that a street musician who was at every Seattle sporting and music event was killed last week in a random gang beating as he waited for a bus. It's becoming a problem...

RIP Ed McMichael

WOW the tuba funny hat guy... have had the pleasure of seeing this guy a few times during my short stay in Seattle......and these **** random beatings ARE a problem nationwide.

dkg999

Not an easy problem to solve, that's for sure! So far the feel good measures that our elected leaders have used, ie gun control laws, youth detention/counseling, subsidized housing, spray paint control laws, etc. have been less than effective. Why, because they attack the symptoms and not the problems, and help the politicians more than solve the problems. I'm not sure what can be done to stem the increase in gang participation/violence, but I do know that it seems like our society is less willing than ever before to stand up and make it known we are not willing to be victims.

DarqueKnight

Money, or lack thereof, is not the problem. Basic bad character and making bad decisions is the problem. Would most of these financially struggling single mothers be better mothers if their financial situation improved? I don't think so. The reason I say that is that there are many wealthy Beverly Hills housewives who just "delegate" their parental responsibilities to nannies and other domestic staff. That way, they have the required amount of time to devote to truly important activities like going to the spa and attending social and civic club meetings. Their kids grow up to be societal problems because mommy and daddy never had time for them, despite having more money than they could spend in 50 lifetimes.

If a person's basic character is bad, they are going to make bad choices no matter what their social and economic status is. With bad choices come bad consequences.

ben62670

We have gun control laws. You want to not be able to protect your family when the criminals have the guns. Do you really believe that the criminals won't be able to come up with guns? Even if there are no guns period do you want to be home when 2 or more people come into your house knowing that you can not defend yourself? It is getting real bad. What do you think is going to happen if we can not take care of basic needs like food. People will start breaking into homes for food. Where I grew up nearly every house had 3 or more guns. You d not want to bust into a home that is protected. You want easy targets. Would you rob a store that was armed, or would you rob a store that was unable to protect itself?

ben62670

DarqueKnight wrote: »

If a person's basic character is bad, they are going to make bad choices no matter what their social and economic status is. With bad choices come bad consequences.

Very true. This topic isn't covered too much. A lot of middle/upper class kids are neglected by parents who are focused on money, and not family. A kid in a beaten down home with good parents is going to be better off than a rich kid who is neglected.

Early B.

ben62670 wrote: »

Very true. This topic isn't covered too much. A lot of middle/upper class kids are neglected by parents who are focused on money, and not family. A kid in a beaten down home with good parents is going to be better off than a rich kid who is neglected.

True. There's a significant and growing gang problem in my neck of the woods and I live in the suburbs. There are homes in the area worth $500K (nope, not mine) and this is where many of the gang members come from.

BTW -- with regard to "street gangs," many kids are "recruited" into gangs at 7 or 8 years old, sometimes even younger. At that age, they are incapable of understanding the consequences. And literally half of the parents don't even realize that their child is in a street gang or is gang affiliated. They don't find out until it's too late. By then, even if a child wants to break away from a gang, he risks being beaten severely or killed for doing it.

reeltrouble1

I would keep it Reel, the vast majority of serious gang members come from poor and low income households. The middle class kids who are wannabe (often misconstrued Goths) would pee in their jeans and be out of them in no time if dropped into say East LA, you hear me holmes? Yes, if you want to call it bad charachter OK, how does bad charachter develop? is it innate? a learned product of environment? both? if you truly believe gang behavior occurs throughout the classes this would suggest the behavior is innate.

T1

ben62670

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I would keep it Reel, the vast majority of serious gang members come from poor and low income households. The middle class kids who are wannabe (often misconstrued Goths) would pee in their jeans and be out of them in no time if dropped into say East LA, you hear me holmes? Yes, if you want to call it bad charachter OK, how does bad charachter develop? is it innate? a learned product of environment? both? if you truly believe gang behavior occurs throughout the classes this would suggest the behavior is innate.

T1

Absolutely, but people need to be aware of the fact that gangs are spreading out more, and more. It is getting more serious, and these little wannabe kids are getting sucked into the real stuff. It is an increasing problem, and parents need to know where their kids are. I think the two biggest contributors are Lack of parenting, and environment.

DarqueKnight

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

if you truly believe gang behavior occurs throughout the classes this would suggest the behavior is innate.

Nope. Not suggesting that at all. The only thing innate is the ability to make choices in life. "Gang behavior" or any other sociopathic behavior is not confined to class or any other artificial social stratification or classification. Gang behavior is not just confined to the stereotypical lower socio-economic status youth.

A. A group of crooked cops is a gang.
B. A group of greedy crooked corporate executives is a gang.
C. A group of crooked politicians is a gang.
D. A group of illegal immigrants who enter this country solely for criminal purposes is a gang.

A, B, C, and D all have the common characteristics of:

1. No regard for the welfare of human beings who are not members of their gang.
2. No regard for the law or appropriate social behavior.
3. Their activities have far reaching harmful consequences for greater society.
4. They have no social value whatsoever.
5. They are violent - physically, psychologically or both. The gang of corporate thugs at Enron who callously robbed thousands of people of their investment savings is no different than John Dillinger and his gang of armed robbers. Dillinger and his crew used crude guns. The Enron thugs used pens, pencils, computers, and falsified balance sheets. Which gang stole more money? Which gang ruined more lives?

[Deleted User]

I believe, that most "gangsters" are nothing more then wannabe's. What I mean by wannabe's is, by nature they are good people that does not want to hurt anyone. However, regardless of the family situation or social status, it seems that being gangster is cool. I believe it is what they refer to as now a days as the coolness factor. Its almost like a popularity contest. The majority of gang bangers are quite different when they are isolated and not among their fellow gangster friends. When grouped together, they put up a front among one another. Its amazing, how television these days mix sex and violence. Hmmm, is there a correlation?

The cool factor and the peer pressure that goes with it almost give them a split personality. The truth is truth, I just hope they grow out of that stage and escape that life. Trying to be cool and hurt someone else. Sometimes, that coolness will cost them their lives. I can not recall the last time that living a good life was promoted. Televsion, radio, any form of public transmission. I believe values are beyond families these days. The internal factor and the external factor, unfortunately the latter does not help.

hockeyboy

One thing to keep in mind is that no matter your opinion on abortion, is that it is statistically effective in reducing crime. Unwanted children= likely criminal in 20 years. We can count on Roe v Wade being overturned in the coming 8 years most likely which will add to the challenge if something doesn't change. How can society and more particularly (we) help these kids grow up with more purpose?

Audio NUT

anyone can be blamed but much has to do with so many factors that not one can be pinned down, Money and some silly community center is not the answer. the constant parent blaming also is just banter and never solved anything. the SAD truth is that WE as honest hard working US citizens need to once again FORM the minute men brigade like in the early american days,

We as honest citizens (including the police) are OUT numbered, OUT gunned and NOT as coordinated as the gangs, ONE UPRISING with percision and the riots in CALIFORNIA many years ago which reeked havoc from UNORGANIZED people who just went on a rampage will seem trivial and CIVIL if gangs decided to attack..GANGS can do far worse with much fewer and they will be armed...the Police will say HECK with this and they will probably take off there uniforms and run with the others to safety. ME I own a nice home in a nice area and I still see scouters looking to steal a brass mail box or see if there is someone to rob BUT our neighborhood has pulled together and if some truck or car is lurking many approach it ask if to say you lost or do you need directions? like a good neighbor.

We also make a point that by acting like they may be looking for a home to buy that this area is SAFE and that every car or truck it videotaped when they enter or leave this community, ONE van with two DUDES said really? our license plate and truck was photographed? I said YES so if you move here YOU too will know that your safe, they quickly drove away...My home is alarmed, I have a carry permit and never arms length from my federal 5 shooter S&W. I have a shot gun, a M1 carbine semi automatic ( I highly recommend this for the home) and a fence. its not like fort knox and im NOT paranoid... I also am installing a second floor door that is actually an old jail cell door that swings open and at night closes the stairwell to the second floor, It can be opened by a special latch in case of fire BUT someone coming up cant open it.

This is due to the many home invasions here in NY. if someone invades my home then runs upstairs to rob or harm us, they will be faced with a steel vintage jail cell door preventing them from getting in our rooms (which by the way will be the last thing they see as they say OH CRAP! as the barrel of that M1 bids them a fond adoooo.

It sounds sick BUT the government is not helping, the parents are not, the police are not SO you all best take steps to protect yourselves, because there is a storm coming...

reeltrouble1

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Gang behavior is not just confined to the stereotypical lower socio-economic status youth.

Demographics of the make-up of violent gangs suggest otherwise. There is nothing stereotypical about it. The intellegence is based on solid information, the make up of the gang simply is what it is. The violence is extreme, the training is terroristic in nature and para military in structure.

I agree that there are many types of "gangs", although I am not sure exactly what the point is beyond stating the obvious. People from Enron went to jail, people in violent gangs go to jail. They may go to different prisons, are indeedv fined different amounts for punishment, were given different scentences allowed by US Title codes for punishment, each assigned an individual Financial Responsiblity Program based on their case and appropriate guidelines, nonetheless they went to prison like any felon should under the law. One flaw in the system is how violent gang members no longer view prison as punishment but simply as part of life, in fact older gang members have found prison as a viable means to stay alive and maintain control of the gang.

I am saying that as a society of individual citizens we each need to address the issue of gang violence. There are 800,000 gang members to be addressed across this country, everyday they murder, destroy property, steal, intimidate with violence, sell drugs, run prostitution and promote their agenda. They are not simply going to go away, in fact unlike Enron they are thriving.

RT1

Early B.

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Demographics of the make-up of violent gangs suggest otherwise. There is nothing stereotypical about it. The intellegence is based on solid information, the make up of the gang simply is what it is. The violence is extreme, the training is terroristic in nature and para military in structure.

I agree that there are many types of "gangs", although I am not sure exactly what the point is beyond stating the obvious. People from Enron went to jail, people in violent gangs go to jail. They may go to different prisons, are indeedv fined different amounts for punishment, were given different scentences allowed by US Title codes for punishment, each assigned an individual Financial Responsiblity Program based on their case and appropriate guidelines, nonetheless they went to prison like any felon should under the law. One flaw in the system is how violent gang members no longer view prison as punishment but simply as part of life, in fact older gang members have found prison as a viable means to stay alive and maintain control of the gang.

I am saying that as a society of individual citizens we each need to address the issue of gang violence. There are 800,000 gang members to be addressed across this country, everyday they murder, destroy property, steal, intimidate with violence, sell drugs, run prostitution and promote their agenda. They are not simply going to go away, in fact unlike Enron they are thriving.

RT1

RT1 -- you can't really address the street gang problem without dealing with other forms of gangs -- namely those involved in the sale and distributon of large scale illegal substances. Many "low level" street gangs are organized to control territory for the sale of crack cocaine and other drugs. But they are buying their drugs from more organized gangs. That's why it's important to view gangs from a larger perspective; otherwise, we won't see the bigger picture.

As long the supply of drugs remains relatively unimpeded, people will find a way to market it. I haven't researched it, but I'd bet illegal drug use is just as prevalent in middle and high income neighborhoods as it is in impoverished communities where street gang activity is rampant. So if we focus exclusively on eliminating street gangs and not on the gangs that feed them, the problems will persist.

reeltrouble1

Early,

The drugs are just one way they make money, I would suggest everyone just be aware and do what they can to stop the onslaught of violence. Yes, another important trend is the linking of violent gangs to Al Qaida, particularily with regrad to illegal narcotic introduction and sale. These are not some simple street gang with a four block radius, they are organzied on a national basis, MS-13 is spreading like wildfire. I suppose I am sounding a bit like a fanatical nutcase, but the fact is the problem huge and as several members have noted not something local or even national politicians want to address.

RT1

DarqueKnight

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I am not sure exactly what the point is beyond stating the obvious.

My point was that in order to effectively deal with this problem, we, as a society, must attack gangs, in all their myriad forms, at their root cause. We can continue to spend billions on prisons and law enforcement or we can provide parental counseling and societal intervention before a sociopathic mindset is formed.

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I am saying that as a society of individual citizens we each need to address the issue of gang violence.

I agree 1 trillion %. However, gangs are just a symptom of a larger societal problem, which is the pathological breakdown in basic family/home structure and the resulting sociopathic behavior it generates. We can lock up all the gang members tomorrow and the problem would still persist because the basic pathological conditions that created those monsters is still breeding replacement monsters.

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

There are 800,000 gang members to be addressed across this country, everyday they murder, destroy property, steal, intimidate with violence, sell drugs, run prostitution and promote their agenda. They are not simply going to go away, in fact unlike Enron they are thriving.

Yes they are thriving...at all levels of society and in far greater numbers than 800,000. Law enforcement is not adequately equipped to effectively deal with this problem because the root cause is not a law enforcement issue, it is an societal intervention issue. If a home is infested with rats, setting traps is one way of "dealing" with the problem. However, as long as the rats have a safe breeding haven, the problem will persist.

Early B. wrote: »

RT1 -- you can't really address the street gang problem without dealing with other forms of gangs -- namely those involved in the sale and distributon of large scale illegal substances. Many "low level" street gangs are organized to control territory for the sale of crack cocaine and other drugs. But they are buying their drugs from more organized gangs. That's why it's important to view gangs from a larger perspective; otherwise, we won't see the bigger picture.

The street level gang, which is really only the tip of the iceberg, is the gang manifestation that is the easiest to deal with. The shadowy figures who ship tons of drugs into this country, are not so easy to deal with because they are not operating in plain sight.

Early B. wrote: »

As long the supply of drugs remains relatively unimpeded, people will find a way to market it.

Again, root cause analysis provides some insight. Why are the drugs coming here in the first place? Because there is a demand for them. Why is there such a great demand for illicit dangerous drugs? Because people have a pathological need, an illness, for these types of "medications". Once the demand issue is appropriately addressed, the trafficking issue will be addressed by default.

It is not possible to completely eradicate deviant behavior because some people are going to make wrong choices no matter how much parental and societal care they are given. However, adequately addressing the root causes of a problem is always more efficient and effective than treating symptoms.