Amp Question Pioneer Elite/Polk

PioneerElite

Ok I am looking at Outlaw Audio amps, Which is the brand I want. What I need to know is what model I should get. So could someone please help me find the model that would work best with my 7.1 set up. I will be hooking the amp up to my Pioneer Elite VSX-91TXH receiver and the speakers are 2 Polk Monitor40 front, 2 Polk Monitor 30 Side, 1 Polk CS2 Center, 2 Polk FXIA4 Back. Please let me know what ya think. Thanks ahead of time.

wingnut4772

I think any of the Outlaw multichannel amps
would suit you. It just depends on your budget and how much headroom you want.

PioneerElite

Ok I think I have figured out which amp I am going to get. But I have another question. I think I may wait on getting the amp and get a pair of LSi9's instead, Would I have any problems (like power wise) hooking them up to my Pioneer elite VSX-91TXH receiver. Please let me know. Thanx

mantis

PioneerElite wrote: »

Ok I think I have figured out which amp I am going to get. But I have another question. I think I may wait on getting the amp and get a pair of LSi9's instead, Would I have any problems (like power wise) hooking them up to my Pioneer elite VSX-91TXH receiver. Please let me know. Thanx

They will suck the life out of the elite amps. Buy amps before you buy Lsi speakers. Your Monitors do not need any amps. The Elite amps will power them just fine.

Dan

zingo

mantis wrote: »

They will suck the life out of the elite amps. Buy amps before you buy Lsi speakers. Your Monitors do not need any amps. The Elite amps will power them just fine.

+1; LSis like to eat receivers for breakfast. You would be able to power them OK for a little bit, but they like a lot of current and your receiver just can't provide that.

McLoki

You would probably be fine with LSi7's as they are pretty close to a 6 ohm load. If you are planning on 9's or 15's though, expect to send your reciever into protection every once in awhile (and maybe more often than that) until you get an amp. You do not have to spend alot of money to get a nice amp as they stay good for a long time so purchasing an older used amp is a great way to save some coin.

Michael

tugboat

Not all receivers will have trouble running the LSi series and send it into protection mode. I took my Denon to a friend's house and we connected it to his LSi15s. We cranked it well into, and past, reference level in 2ch pure direct for well over an hour and the amp never strained or went into protection mode ( ran warm, but no fans kicked in). We then connected all his speakers for HT and did the same. All was well. Of course YMMV. The Denon I used has a 1.4kVA transformer and 60 amperes peak reserve (66,000uf capacitance). Not seperate amp capabilities, but not weak by any means. The key is making sure the receiver has the means to supply the needed current to keep up with the demand.

PioneerElite

First off thanx to everyone for there input. Now what I would like to know is can I buy the pioneer elite amp 200x2, and run a pair of lsi9's with my 7.1 set up by hooking the lsi9's up to the amp, and still leave everything else hooked up to the receiver.

A polk tec told me that the reason I can not hook the lsi9's up to my receiver is because they will drop below 2ohms.

The pioneer amp is stable at 2ohms, So will I run into the same problem as I will with my receiver.
Please let me know what ya think Thanx


P.S. Do the same rules apply to home as in car audio, in the case of ohm loads and wattage.

adclark

I would also look at the ROTEL amps

megasat16

tugboat wrote: »

Not all receivers will have trouble running the LSi series and send it into protection mode. I took my Denon to a friend's house and we connected it to his LSi15s. We cranked it well into, and past, reference level in 2ch pure direct for well over an hour and the amp never strained or went into protection mode ( ran warm, but no fans kicked in). We then connected all his speakers for HT and did the same. All was well. Of course YMMV. The Denon I used has a 1.4kVA transformer and 60 amperes peak reserve (66,000uf capacitance). Not seperate amp capabilities, but not weak by any means. The key is making sure the receiver has the means to supply the needed current to keep up with the demand.

That's your lucky day! Don't try again too often or you'll end up losing a tweeter (or part of XO) in the LSi15 if the Denon doesn't go into protected mode and starts sending pure DC even for a fraction of second (due to integrated amp clipping) to the speaker. Bad idea to use Denon or any AVR at above reference level for too long. There will be little headroom left if you push the AVR hard and the amp will start clipping which is a bad thing for most speakers.

megasat16

PioneerElite wrote: »

First off thanx to everyone for there input. Now what I would like to know is can I buy the pioneer elite amp 200x2, and run a pair of lsi9's with my 7.1 set up by hooking the lsi9's up to the amp, and still leave everything else hooked up to the receiver.

A polk tec told me that the reason I can not hook the lsi9's up to my receiver is because they will drop below 2ohms.

The pioneer amp is stable at 2ohms, So will I run into the same problem as I will with my receiver.
Please let me know what ya think Thanx


P.S. Do the same rules apply to home as in car audio, in the case of ohm loads and wattage.

Ok! Here is the thing - If the Elite Receiver can drive 4 ohms load, it can driver 4 ohms stable load but may not be able to drive the speaker which drops impedance as low as 2 ohms (at certain frequency). The integrated amp in the Elite Receiver will not able to supply enough current to the speaker and attenuate the output which cause an amp clipping. That has to do with the current damping factor of most AVR under loads which most AVR is not designed to do. Besides, most AVR's has rated output mostly for 2 speakers for a certain amount of time only and the output rating changes as the AVR is used from 2 channel (front mains) to multi-channel (5.1 or 7.1, etc) for surround use.

If you get a separate Amplifier, just make sure they can drive 4 ohms in their SPECs and you'll be OK. Separate Amplifiers are designed as such that they can supply ample current to speakers under load when a speaker impedance fell below its normal rated impedance at certain frequency.

You can get a high current amplifier with 150W-200W minimum power handling at 8 ohms (makes sure the spec claims 4 ohms capable). A lot of polkie here seems to have Adcom and other amps to go with Lsi so I am sure more people will chime in for you.

But please get an amp ASAP before or after your LSi purchase. Also, keep in mind that the amp is a deciding factor how your LSi will sound (as with any other good speakers) so don't go skimpy on your amp purchase.

cfrizz

You had the right idea the first time around. Get an Outlaw 7 channel amp FIRST! Enjoy it with the speakers you have now, and then start planning to get the LSI's.

That way you will have the power in place already and just have to focus on the speakers.

tugboat

megasat16 wrote: »

That's your lucky day! Don't try again too often or you'll end up losing a tweeter (or part of XO) in the LSi15 if the Denon doesn't go into protected mode and starts sending pure DC even for a fraction of second (due to integrated amp clipping) to the speaker. Bad idea to use Denon or any AVR at above reference level for too long. There will be little headroom left if you push the AVR hard and the amp will start clipping which is a bad thing for most speakers.

Exactly what part of the XO will I lose? :rolleyes:

I know what my Denon can do. It is stable down to 2 ohms for short periods, so running a 4 ohm speaker isn't an issue. Maybe you should read up on what the Denon 5803 can do before talk about it's limitations, headroom and clipping.

wutadumsn23

Uh oh, and were off!!!!

megasat16

A Resistor can burn and a cap may smoke. Who knows what will go first before actually it happened and there is no exact equation of what always burn first. I hope you know that you shouldn't put a high strain on the Denon AVR no matter what the ratings said. I know quite well about what Denon amp you are talking about and I've seem better ones that goes smoke because someone think very highly of their high priced AVR.

And you can spare Sarcasm for those who has good intent for you. I know about LSi and you can see from my signature.

tugboat

megasat16 wrote: »

A Resistor can burn and a cap may smoke. Who knows what will go first before actually it happened and there is no exact equation of what always burn first. I hope you know that you shouldn't put a high strain on the Denon AVR no matter what the ratings said. I know quite well about what Denon amp you are talking about and I've seem better ones that goes smoke because someone think very highly of their high priced AVR.

And you can spare Sarcasm for those who has good intent for you. I know about LSi and you can see from my signature.

Well if I can "burn" a Mills 12w or "smoke" a Sonicap, then I must be doing something right. I've had this unit for over 4 years now and I know how hard it can be pushed before trouble (clipping). So far it's run like a champ running my 1.2TLs (6 ohm) and the LSi/15s.

I have spoken with an engineer from Denon and was told that the receiver can easily run all 7 channels at full power into 6 ohms nominal and run two channel into 4 ohms nominal / 2 ohm for short periods (with over 600 WPC headroom).

Kex

tugboat wrote: »

Exactly what part of the XO will I lose? :rolleyes:

I know what my Denon can do. It is stable down to 2 ohms for short periods, so running a 4 ohm speaker isn't an issue. Maybe you should read up on what the Denon 5803 can do before talk about it's limitations, headroom and clipping.

Tugboat, calm down a little! The 5803 is very impressive, and it's true that the usual wisdoms about the limitations of receivers may not hold true in this case. From the Audioholics review:

Notice the massive 1.2kVA Torroidal Power Transformer.

With over 66,000uF of power supply capacitance, the Denon AVR-5803 has enough reserves for the most needy power demands.

All channels employ discrete large high power complimentary BJT's. The power supply is centrally located in the chassis for the best isolation and structural stability.

It is easy to see that this receiver passes the 3.2 ohm all channels driven high current torture test mandated for THX Ultra2 Certification.

Caution would be advisable nonetheless, since LSi speakers will notoriously dip down to 2 ohms. You are right, however, that not all receivers will not drive 4 ohm loads, in fact I have had more success with my NAD receiver than with an entry level amplifier from Emotiva (the NAD is actually rated for both 4 and 2 ohm loads).

In the case of the OP, the advice already given about his choice of amplifier still makes a lot of sense IMO.

tugboat

Kex wrote: »

Tugboat, calm down a little! The 5803 is very impressive, and it's true that the usual wisdoms about the limitations of receivers may not hold true in this case. From the Audioholics review:


Caution would be advisable nonetheless, since LSi speakers will notoriously dip down to 2 ohms. You are right, however, that not all receivers will not drive 4 ohm loads, in fact I have had more success with my NAD receiver than with an entry level amplifier from Emotiva (the NAD is actually rated for both 4 and 2 ohm loads).

In the case of the OP, the advice already given about his choice of amplifier still makes a lot of sense IMO.

I just get a little tired of the blanket statements made regularly about receivers. It is true that a large number of them are not up to the task of running 4 ohm loads or running all channels to rated specs (which usually are individual channel ratings so the wattage numbers are higher for marketing), but those are usually the low end of the line units. I'd put this unit up against the TOTL HK that many like to recommend or the TOTL Onkyo.


I've run this receiver at reference level more times than I can count over the past 4 years and it has never failed or destroyed my speakers/XOs, but if I mention this someone has to come up with a reply about how I've been lucky and to be careful because it's a receiver and I should upgrade to separates, blah, blah, blah. It seems a bit irresponsible to post doom and gloom warnings about receivers every time someone mentions having or wanting to purchase a receiver.

megasat16

I thought I wouldn't post anymore in this thread but you are saying that you are annoyed to see someone's been caring for your own good not to get your gears destroyed?

You need to know one more thing - the Denon Engineer said you can drive all 7 channels at full rated power but does he tell you that Denon guarantees that nothing bad will happen? I am not being irrational here. It's just that the way electronics goes, if you over driven it many times, it'll give up sometimes. Most people has told you that you shouldn't do it because it's bad for you but you don't like it, right? I also didn't tell you to upgrade you to components, did I? All I said is not to drive your AVR too hard. Read above again. You just took it a bit harsh on my own good will so be it.

By the way, I have a mint Denon amps (2 channel amp) that has bigger transformer and more capacitance than yours but I don't even pair with my LSis. In fact, I have about 15+ amps (need proof? I can send photos) lying around and all of them surpass the Denon AVR you mentioned but not a good match to my LSis.

cfrizz

Tugboat, we are simply passing along knowledge that we have learned over the years to most newbies that don't have a clue, because we care about the gear they have invested in. In other words, WE ARE TRYING TO HELP!

99.9% of the time that info is useful & correct. Are there exceptions to gear that can handle LSI's sometimes but not usually.

However, the person can take or leave the info. It is their gear/money they can enjoy it or wreck it as they choose.

tugboat

megasat16 wrote: »

I thought I wouldn't post anymore in this thread but you are saying that you are annoyed to see someone's been caring for your own good not to get your gears destroyed?

You need to know one more thing - the Denon Engineer said you can drive all 7 channels at full rated power but does he tell you that Denon guarantees that nothing bad will happen? I am not being irrational here. It's just that the way electronics goes, if you over driven it many times, it'll give up sometimes. Most people has told you that you shouldn't do it because it's bad for you but you don't like it, right? I also didn't tell you to upgrade you to components, did I? All I said is not to drive your AVR too hard. Read above again. You just took it a bit harsh on my own good will so be it.

By the way, I have a mint Denon amps (2 channel amp) that has bigger transformer and more capacitance than yours but I don't even pair with my LSis. In fact, I have about 15+ amps (need proof? I can send photos) lying around and all of them surpass the Denon AVR you mentioned but not a good match to my LSis.

The engineer stated that the receiver has enough power to run all the channels at the rated power. Many receivers only give those numbers for a single or a couple channels. When you try to run them all, they can't reach the rated output. This Denon doesn't drop its ratings when you try to drive all the channels.

Okay, so you're an LSi "expert." I have a friend with a Ferrari, but that doesn't make him an expert on race cars. I really don't need to see pics of your amps. The only proof I need is from my own experience. I've run LSis with my receiver with good results and that's all the proof I need.

We're done here.

megasat16

Well, I am not LSi Expert and I don't claim to be one. Most of us are in searching about what is a good sound. Nonetheless, I know about what Engineers say because I happen to be one.

tugboat wrote: »

We're done here.

Agreed!

Pepi28

And to "pioneer elite", get the outlaw amp.

mantis

tugboat wrote: »

The engineer stated that the receiver has enough power to run all the channels at the rated power. Many receivers only give those numbers for a single or a couple channels. When you try to run them all, they can't reach the rated output. This Denon doesn't drop its ratings when you try to drive all the channels.

Okay, so you're an LSi "expert." I have a friend with a Ferrari, but that doesn't make him an expert on race cars. I really don't need to see pics of your amps. The only proof I need is from my own experience. I've run LSis with my receiver with good results and that's all the proof I need.

We're done here.

Ok lets take a step back, first off it's not your system. 2nd you can do whatever you want with yours. If you ask for advise or read advise thats not directed to you, why do you even care?? Why are you taking offense ? I don't get it man, I don't.

Receivers from B&K, Rotel and Mcintosh all will hold a Lsi load and do it just fine. NAD and Outlaw also come to mind. these are all fine products.

I will give you real world results that I experienced myself with my system with a receiver a Denon avr3801 which was a mid level to higher end back then receiver and a full 5 channel Lsi speaker package. Lsi15 fronts , LsiC center and a pair of lsi/Fx rears. Running at reference the receiver went into protection after about 20 minutes of use. Under that it was fine. But it didn't have the dynamic range that I had when I was running 8 ohm load speakers in the Polk rt series.
Another system , same speakers with 7 channels adding Lsi7's for surround back with a higher end Denon avr4806. This receiver went into Protection at reference after about 30 minutes of play. Customer of mine called and wanted someone to trouble shoot the system as it keeps turning off. We added a 7 channel amps and it never had a problem again.
Yet another Lsi system . Lsi25's Center and 4 Lsi7's for rears Running off a Pioneer ELite vsx84tx. This receiver went into protection at reference volume after about 10 minutes. My customer didn't want to spend the extra money on a amp and he likes to listen to Iron Maiden in 7 channel stereo at reference. It goes into Protection every time. he now owns a B&K ref200.7 and loves every minute of his system.

I am a professional Audio video Installer for 9 years now and have Installed Polk products with receivers and separates or even a receiver with separate amps. I don't know everything nor ever claim to but I have experienced problems with Lsi and receivers and don't want other to. If you want good speakers then buy good electronics. Most receivers will not even hold a 4 ohm load for very long or at all.
Please don't come in here and mouth off to other polk forum member if you don't have experience with the topic at hand. Like I said before, do what ever you want to with your own system. Take advise in here for what it is. Your not helping anyone by being offensive about receivers vs separates. if you knew anything you would know Synergy is the most important thing to building a system. Think about that before you reply.

So my last question to you would be this. if you are buying higher end speakers which have a difficult ohm load like the Lsi's in 4 ohm load and not to mention a 88db sensitivity rating, why would you not want to use a seperate power amp to drive them?

cfrizz

Bravo Dan!!!

PioneerElite

Thanx everyone for your input. I am still working on getting my amp. I have decided on a few different brands, Just have to narrow it down to one. I do know that I want a 5ch. Oh go check out my ebay auction I am selling my pioneer elite BDP-05FD blu-ray player. Here is the link- http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=220321645888