How to tune the SR's

arun1963

4) My head unit will be the Pioneer PRS800, having TA capabilities, as well as xovers and 32 band equalizer for the right and left sides separately (right?). It was mentioned that if someone has TA, then out of phase setup for tweeters would not be necessary. But it was also mentioned that if the tweeters are installed distantly from the mids, then out of phase is necessary. So I don't know if I should do this. If I should, then please link me to some web that explains this since I can't find any info about this.

And does the Pioneer 800PRS has the capacity to get those numbers, as the Alpine H700 does?

I run the p-880. I like the hu, because in a 1din unit I get both a decent hu and a mini processor. The 800 has the same features but has an all copper chassis, I believe. Normally, to get this kind of tuning features, one would have to buy a hu and a seperate processor. HU + good processor would always give better sound. A 30 band eq gives you an additional 10-15frequencies that you can tune. The other difference is in the way these frequencies are adjusted. On the 800/880, you can tune each frequency for +/- 6. Each step (+/-1) is a 2db (in terms of loudness) adjustment. So +/-6 gives you +/- 12db adjustment. On a processor the +/- 6 steps could be 12. Hence each step would correct for +/- 1db thereby giveving better accuracy. So you control more frequencies and you control each frequency more accurately. Ofcourse this option would be more expensive.

The 800/880 gives independent l/r control over 16 frequencies. 32 frequencies is marketing jargon (16x2).

I reverse the tweeter phase to raise my stage height. I lose a bit of coherence and sweetness in the highs when I do this. I am forced to do this as my tweets are mounted in the sail panels, firing at each other with tons of dash features that act as obstructions and reflection points. Don't get too fussed with distances and numbers for reversing the tweet phase.

It's relevant to know that the higher frequencies are more linear / directional and these frequencies set your stage height. That is why its recomended to mount the tweets on the a pillars so that they are 4-5" higher than the highest obstruction point. You would set them in xfiring mode (near side tweet aimed at passenger headrest and vice versa), like Mac mentioned. When the tweets are mounted higher, it will pull the entire sound stage higher. Thats the way your brain processes sound.

I use Mac's numbers as a guideline rather than for absolute value. Mac's numbers are based on his cars interiors, the location and way his drivers are mounted, his equipment etc. So e.g. if in Mac's car, 315hz is louder on the left side by 6db, it would be louder on the left in your car and my car as well. But maybe in your car its hotter by 5db and in mine by 4db. The same would apply to all tuning features like TA, xover points etc. I'm just trying to illustrate a point. At the end of the day you will have to tune your setup based on your install/cars accoustics.

With the pio HU yes you can set the mid/high xover at 6.3khz if you so wish. Again, like mac said this may be too high. Normal passive xovers split the signal at between 2-3khz. By crossing higher, the sound is cleaner and has a bit more 'airy' feel to it, however if you set this too high you would hit the physical limitation of your driver.

pushkanak

Thanks arun1963! Let me see if I understood you well. If the 800PRS can give me a max of +/- 12db, then does that mean that I can't achieve the tweeter highpass MacLeod recommends of 4KHz@24db? Because that's 24db of adjustment.. If I can't get to 24db, can I at least get to the 4khz signal split with this head unit?

The same goes with the midrange area. I see I would not be able to achieve the lowpass of 4KHz@24db, I'm thinking the closest I could do with the 800PRS is 4KHz@12db, is this correct? Would this make much difference?

Thanks for comparing sail panel mount vs. a-pillar mount, I was about to ask this too. So A-Pillar seems to be the best location for me! at xfiring mode like was explained.

Lastly, If I do the mid/high xover at 6.3khz, I'm guessing that since the mids would be managing more higher frequencies here, then the off-axis install that I will do would with the mids would interfere with the sound quality. I'm thinking I would better do the xover at 4khz so the tweeters would do the rest, and since they would be in-axis, those higher frequencies would sound better than if managed by the off-axis mids. Is this logic correct?

dirthog

pushkanak wrote: »

Thanks arun1963! Let me see if I understood you well. If the 800PRS can give me a max of +/- 12db, then does that mean that I can't achieve the tweeter highpass MacLeod recommends of 4KHz@24db? Because that's 24db of adjustment.. If I can't get to 24db, can I at least get to the 4khz signal split with this head unit?

You can highpass the tweeter at 4khz/24 slope.

The same goes with the midrange area. I see I would not be able to achieve the lowpass of 4KHz@24db, I'm thinking the closest I could do with the 800PRS is 4KHz@12db, is this correct? Would this make much difference?

You can lowpass the mid at 4khz/24 slope.

Thanks for comparing sail panel mount vs. a-pillar mount, I was about to ask this too. So A-Pillar seems to be the best location for me! at xfiring mode like was explained.

Lastly, If I do the mid/high xover at 6.3khz, I'm guessing that since the mids would be managing more higher frequencies here, then the off-axis install that I will do would with the mids would interfere with the sound quality. I'm thinking I would better do the xover at 4khz so the tweeters would do the rest, and since they would be in-axis, those higher frequencies would sound better than if managed by the off-axis mids. Is this logic correct?

For the most part you are correct, but like every car install you have to experiment with different install options to see what yields the best results.

I hope this helps

pushkanak

Yes it helped, it's good to know that with the 800PRS head unit I can highpass and lowpass at the 24db adjustment. So, since I would tune my system with all those crossover settings suggested by MacLeod, I should only be using the crossovers from the headunits in an active way, right?

In other words, the crossovers that come with the Sr6500 and the pa500.4 amp would be without use right? (sorry if this was too newbie, this is too new for me)

arun1963

...I had a feeling that my earlier post would over load you. I should have taken smaller steps.

1. When I mentioned +/- 12db I was talking about the equaliser. This is where a single frequency can be adjusted for +/- 12db. With the hu you can adjust 16 frequencies.

2. Mac's comment of 24db at xover point, means a slope of 24db/octave. The audible range of 20-20khz is roughly divided into 10 octaves. From any frequency say 200hz, 1 octave up is double i.e. 400hz and one octave down is half of 200 i.e. 100hz. Hence, If you select 4khz as your xover point for the mid and select a slope of 24db/octave, your mid will play 8khz, 24db lower than 4khz. If on the other hand you selected 4khz at a 6db slope, 8khz would play 6db's lower than 4 on your mid. So a range of frequencies between 4-8khz is getting attenuated. The higher the slope# the steeper is the slope.

1 & 2 are two different things. Your hu has seperate controls for both. For the xover slopes, your hu will allow you to select from 6db-36db/oct for the sub and 6db-24db for your mids and tweets.

One last thing. Sound is processed on the right side of the brain. This half processes backwards i.e. from the 'whole' downwards to the smallest bit. It does this intuitively. Numbers are a left brain strength. The left brain processes from the small bit up to try and complete the whole. The bits are built up based on logic, pattern, etc.

Numbers are important to start with, while you're building, bit upwards. Btw, It's also important to know which number are relevent. If your try and surf to learn more, you will come across tons of information and numbers. Very few are really relevent. So, numbers will take you to a certain point, thereafter you will have to transfer the listening / tuning process to the right side, to take you the least few miles. The right side does'nt need the numbers.

The only numbers you should always remember are those that define your equipments limits and to stay well within that range.

pushkanak

Good explanation regarding the functioning of both brain hemispheres. I will certainly commence my setup with the numbers recommended from MacLeod, and from there I would tune with my right brain side as my commander, since as was said, every car has different acoustics.

Considering that the PRS800 has enough capabilities for achieving MacLeod's recommendations and further tuning with my ears, does this mean that the SR6500's and pa500.4's crossovers would be left without use? Or do they provide functions other than achieving those crossover numbers? (for instance, maybe if I also connect the tweeters to the SR6500's crossovers it would avoid them damaging because of high gains or something? But I don't know if I can connect to HU's crossovers and SR6500's crossovers at the same time?)

TakeTheTime

MacLeod wrote: »

If youre going to separate the tweeter from the mid, wire them out of phase. In both my truck and my car, they blended in and the image pulled up higher a ton with them out of phase. Having them wired in phase with each other also caused some cancellation at the crossover point

Hey Mac, nice tuning advices! A question about this,
to "wire out of phase" means switch the tweeters + and - ?
Should I do this? I think they sound pretty darn good with correct though...

MacLeod

Yes, wiring the tweeters out of phase would mean switching the + and -. Its worth trying. You may not notice a difference but you wont know til you try.

TakeTheTime

I did it today, and yes, I THINK I can hear a difference. It's slightly better!
Now I've got my Alpine 9855r, so I'm gonna follow the 1st post to tune the SR's.
Or should I wait 'til the speakers are fully broken in. They've gotten around 50 hours...

TakeTheTime

MacLeod wrote: »

I would go steeper than 12 db on the mids. At that shallow a slope, 40 Hz is only cut by 4 db.

Hey, I respond to this one here to avoid more OT in the other thread. What about 18db/octave?

TakeTheTime

About the tuning, you say I should wire them out of phase? I did it today, and it works very well!
But I have to ask: What do you mean when you say that it helps them "blend" better?
(Btw I'm from Norwegian and don't speak Norway very well :D)

MacLeod

Blending means both drivers working together so you don't hear stuff coming from 2 different locations. Ideally you'll hear everything coming from the tweeters general area instead of some stuff up high and some stuff down low.

TakeTheTime

MacLeod wrote: »

Blending means both drivers working together so you don't hear stuff coming from 2 different locations. Ideally you'll hear everything coming from the tweeters general area instead of some stuff up high and some stuff down low.

I see. Yeah, I've reconnected to active crossover now by the way. Oh, should the tweeters be out of phase only with the passive!?

Gonna meet some car-audio people tomorrow and get some help with tuning and setting TA from my new headunit. It's gonna be great! I've tried a couple of different crossover's with the SR5250"-woofers and 1"-tweeters, the one's I remember trying was at 4khz with 24db/octave (both) and 5khz with 12db/octave (both) - I definately like the 5khz-cross the most! I'll try 6.3khz later on I think.

And HPF on the midbass is set to 50hz with 24db/octave - you've said this is the absolute lowest, right? I tried 40hz too but I didn't hear any different. As for the sub, it's set to 40hz with 24db's steep slope (I'm an SQ-guy and I definately like this the most in order to get everything upfront, I could even go with 31.5hz if my midbass could go lower! ). And speaking of which, in my ears, the bass and midbass sounds great now...

MacLeod

The passive SR crossover actually cuts the tweeters off pretty high, something like 6K but within 18 db slope.

arun1963

That is high!!! Like Skip, even I thought it was around 3khz. It puts paid to my idea of running the momo's, with the sr xovers, in the yet to be bought car. No I'm not replacing the Ford . Wifes car needs a change.

For some reason I could never make reversed phases work. Every time I tried it, I came back to normal phase. For the benefit it gives, I could never tune back the balance and tonality. But yes, reversing one tweet lifts the stage and doing it to the sub pushes the the stage further away from you and gives the perception of greater depth.

Your tweets and the frequencies they play, are lifting about 80% of your stage height. So for a start, the tweets need to be at dash level or higher. If you're running the sr's, the tweets need to be more on axis than normal. Since its the tweets doing the lifting, there is a limit to the mass they can lift. Hence there is a cap on how heavy you make the sound. Read sub bass and lower mid bass. If you break up sound into five ranges, sub, mid bass, midrange, upper mids and highs, each range needs to be connected securely to to the ones before and after it. Level matching and balance.

Think of a chain that has five links of equal length. The link at one end is thick and heavy and the mass of the links reduce as you move to the other end. The last link being delicate and light. You have to lift the chain from the delicate end without snapping it.

So its good to start with the first couple of links a little lighter and once you have it lifted, then add proportionately to the mass of each chain. Stopping short of the breaking point.

Running a 50hz low end at a 36db slope is one way of filling in the lower end. A crossover of 50hz actually pushes up the stage from 40hz. If you dont have the slopes its not going to work. Increasing the delay between your sub and mids also pushes the sub presentation higher. So you get the pull from the tweet and a bit of a push from the sub. This works well too.

Somewhat subjective post, but this is how I see it.

TakeTheTime

Ey, thanks for great replies (especially yours Arun).
Today I did some tuning, got some help to do the TA too.
We tried different crossovers, and also used the Parametric EQ.

After this, I got HUGE improvement in my car. Competed in EMMA (European Mobile Media Association) today.
My first time ever, and was in a class called "Experienced". I achieved second place with install 79 and sound 208 points.
The guy who won got 211 points in the sound-part, but he had much better 'install' than me (90 points...)

The sound of the SR's were;

23/30 points for the midbass,
26/30 points for midrange
22/30 points for tweeters.

Also, the "width" was good the judge said, it was a little 'outside' of the car,
high were pretty good too (could be higher, he said up to his shoulders),
but the 'focus' or 'position' of the stage were a little too close...

This was before a guy (he was also a judge in EMMA) helped me with more tuning.
He set the TA correctly for me, and we agreed that there was some better crossovers.
Sub/low were set to 50hz (24db/o), midbass set down to 40hz (18db/o), mids high up to
3.1khz (24db/o) and the highs set down to 3.1khz with 12 db's pr octave. I know it's a little
low for the SR's, but this worked great - got better 'punchy' bass and greater midbass response.
And also a little low for the tweeters maybe? But this gave higher stage and more stuff were pulled up high...

As for the EQ's, we did some adjusting with this too,
but I don't remember excactly now. Can check later...

arun1963

TakeTheTime wrote: »

but the 'focus' or 'position' of the stage were a little too close...

Pinch down a bit at 5khz.

TakeTheTime wrote: »

highs set down to 3.1khz with 12 db's pr octave.... But this gave higher stage and more stuff were pulled up high...

Bring the tweets more on axis and cross higher around 4-5khz. Height cues are 2khz and upwards and you don't want the tweets playing much lower than this. You should hear 2-4khz from both the tweets and the mids and 5khz and above from the tweets.

Your upper mids are the transition from your mid to tweet. At 5khz on a 12db slope, 1.25khz is 24db lower. At 3.15 khz, 24db lower is at 750hz. That's low for the ring radiator. While the ring radiators have great extension in the higher frequencies and play 5-30khz ruler flat, they struggle more than normal soft domes below 2khz.

That said, boosting a bit at 800hz will give you the perception of a slightly higher stage. Thats because 800 will impact 1.5 & 2khz and that is what is bumping up the stage height.

TakeTheTime

Thanks for the reply. But do you think 3.1khz with 12db/octave is too low for the tweeters,
like it will struggle with it when I crank the volume? I think it sounds great, and the guy that
did it said it was no problem at all to cross that 'low'. But I'll try those frequencies you talked about...

TakeTheTime

Remember how I've mounted these babies.
I know the woofers are great off-axis, but...




Especially the drivers woofer is very off-axis.
Maybe I should angle them a little upwards?

arun1963

The far side tweet looks fine. If the near one is also angled like that, get it a bit more on axis to you. Although, doing this would make the car a single seater for the best sound.

The mid bass is fine where it is. You actually have a good location. You don't need to bring them on axis and angle them upwards. The frequencies that the mids play are more prone to phase issues and they don't carry height cues except at the top. Here your tweets are taking over in any case.

I've tried 3.15khz in my car and it didn't work for me. the 500-5khz range just got too bright, the sound got really tight and lost its openness and balance. The stage height actually fell a bit.

With the tweet at 3.15 on a 12db slope you'd hear like 800hz, 24 db lower than you'd hear 3 khz from your tweet. Of course this range would be louder from your mid-bass but you'd start to get the tweets presence from around 1.25 khz. The sr tweets are made to play 25-30khz well. They will struggle around the 800-2khz mark. You don't want to hear this in your sound.

TakeTheTime

^ Yeah, the tweeter are placed like this on my side too. I think I'll just leave it like this right now,
I think the tweeter on my side is on-axis "enough" - I hear it pretty much as much as the other...

TakeTheTime

Oh by the way, it's 3.2khz that is the crossover now, with 24db/octave and 12db/octave.