How to tune the SR's

MacLeod

Also, dont be afraid to play with different crossover settings. Xover settings can be more important than EQ settings. Ive sat in my car for HOURS tuning trying to make something work with no luck then mess around with some different x-over points and BOOM! Things fall into place.

The last couple nights Ive been playing around with staggered x-over points. I tried it a while back setting the mid at 2 KHz and the tweet at 4 KHz and some other variations but couldnt get it to work so I gave up. But since I havent been to a competition since finals in November Ive had plenty of time to play around and decided to give it another whack.

I figure that since the passive crossover that comes with speakers uses different x-over points for the mid and tweet, why shouldnt I? Besides, there was always a "brassy" sound in female voices I could never quite get out. So up til now Ive been having pretty good luck with the mids at 3.2 KHZ @ 18 db/oct and the tweeters at 5 KHZ @ 18 db/oct. The "brassiness" is gone and there is a lot more warmth to the female vocals. I still havent got the male vocal just right yet but Im still working on it.

Im planning on hitting my first show of the year next Sunday (4/8) and Im 99% sure Im going to take this new approach to the show and get it in front of some judges and see how it goes.

arun1963

Go to Radio Shack and buy one of their SPL meters

No RS here yet. Govt yet to open this sector to foreign players. Stand alone brands can operate here but chainstores have to be domestic. So while we have a gap and a benetton no Macys, JCP or RS.

Checked with a couple of companies that sell this stuff to companies for noise level compliance. One quoted $ 2,600 and the other was at 3K. One guy asked what I wanted the spl meter for and when I explained he burst out laughing. Will have to figure out another way to get the meter and disc. Till then its about sticking to the basics and tuning around the basics.

Also, dont be afraid to play with different crossover settings

Gold. While my set up does not allow me to seperate the mids and tweets (Stock momo passive xover, pa amp and hu) I seperated the sub and mids a bit. Sub now LPF at 50 and mids at 63. WOW the blending is so much better and the bass is so much cleaner. Have kept 50hz slightly higher than 80, as raising 80 gives the mid location. I wish I could do the same for the mids and tweets. It would clear up the 3-5 range. Going active is another project. Have been listening to it like this for the past couple of days.

The thing about 'stage' is its beauty and fragility. There is only so much bass that it can handle, before it comes crashing down to my knees. (The mids are at knee level stock location). It seems to me that to really enjoy the stage your sub bass has to be really good and tight and I think this is going to be my next project.

My sub setup is a momo 12" svc, in a ported 1.3 cuft box amped to pa 400.1. The sub is rated at 300rms and the amp is 200rms. I assume that the ported needs to change to sealed, first, before looking at the power aspect. True?

Another linked issue could be that both amps (pa500.4 and 400.1) aren't getting enough volts. The battery is connected to a 1 farad cap. The cap shows 13.4-13.6 when the engine is running and 12.8v when the engine is off. I raise this point cause with most frequencies heavily attenuated, my normal listening volume has gone up to 48-50 on max of 62. Even this, at times is not enough. Hence I'm either going deaf :eek: or the amps arent getting enough juice. True?

I am 'tweaking' much less now, but still enough that I have to re-set the stage frequently. This typically happens becoz I overload the 50-315hz range, while tweaking :rolleyes:

To re-set the stage, I cut the sub and attenuate the mid bass, fade to hearing the mids only and set the TA. I then tune the mids, next I add the sub and do the blending. This causes the stage to fall a bit and I go back and set the TA (add delay to the mids) once the stage height is set, I add the tweets, TA tweets and then tune tweets from the eq. I also fade forwards so that I'm hearing much more of the tweets and then do the final touch up on the 3khz+ frequencies. Is this process correct?

Besides, there was always a "brassy" sound in female voices

Is this like a breathy sound on the female vocals?

Im planning on hitting my first show of the year next Sunday (4/8)

Here's hoping and wishing that this is your year. Do you approach the initial rounds as testing ground for 2-3 new ideas that you have, in order to shortlist and tweak the one you carry to finals?

MacLeod

Yeah, I dont worry about individual shows much anymore - I look at it as an entire season. Im working toward a few key events. Hi-Fi Buys Nationals in July, Elite Summer Nationals in August, TN and AL State Finals in September then World Finals in October. The local shows in between are simply practice runs.

The "brassy" sound is in the upper midrange most noticeable in the female voice. The Rebecca Pigeon and Sarah Kay tracks on the Chesky disck (the MECA SQ disc) are the ones this is most prominent on.

arun1963

Im planning on hitting my first show of the year next Sunday (4/8) and Im 99% sure Im going to take this new approach to the show and get it in front of some judges and see how it goes.

Good luck with the show. Would be interested to know the judges response to seperating the mids and tweets, if you do present that.

donkeypunch22

Hey MacLeod,
Do you know what the impedance is of the tweeter and the 6.5 mid individually (I'm speaking of the SR series of course - but if you happen to know the MM6501 impedance numbers I'd like to know that, too)? I'm going active and want to know the load the amps are going to see. Thanks!

MacLeod

I dont know the exact loads per driver but if youre going to be bi-amping it wont matter. Theyre not below 4 ohms for sure.

donkeypunch22

Thanks for your response.

cliff257

Can you guys tell me what you are using as far as x-overs and eq's for an active setup.

MacLeod

Alpine H700

cliff257

With the h700 you are capable of tuning a low pass and high pass crossover for the midrange? What others have these capabilities or is that common?
Thanks

MacLeod

Thats pretty common in higher end gear. The Alpine 9887 has an excellent 3 way crossover as well as time alignment and a 5 band parametric EQ.

The upper end Eclipse and Pioneer head units have these features as well.

The only thing they dont have that high end processors have is a 6 channel, 31 band EQ.

cliff257

I would be pming you macleod but not enough posts.This is your thread so i am going to continue to ask.

I plan on purchasing the new top end pioneer head unit and i believe it has all the crossover points and a 16 band eq. Do you know anything about this unit? Will it do everything i need it to do to run these speakers active?

I dont compete, I would just like to have the system tuned properly with the knowledge I have gained recently. Do i really need an eq with 31 bands vs 16?

Thanks for the help!!

cliff257

In the line of processors the h700 and h701 are not available any more. Is there anything new that you would purchase besides the bit one(assuming you would purchase this unit)?

Toxis

Rockford 360.2 v2... love it... Great flexibility and sounds great.

cadenceclipse

audiocontrol

MacLeod

If youre not competing, a 16 band eq will be plenty for you to play with and you should be able to dial in some pretty good sound quality.

cliff257

Macleod I am from South Carolina. The only local shop in my area is Elite Audio. I talked to one of the guys there and he competes and says he knows you. He says you sound comp guys are a close knit group and once you get in this group you find all kinds of things from help to hardware.

Wondering if you guys can find me a h701. I was told they're out there I just need to talk to the right people.

Also what are you guys using to control these processors? Presently I am using a dva-9861 for one vehicle and just got the deh-p800 for another. I want the h701 for the alpine headunit. Does anyone know if the headunit will control all the functions on the h701?

Again thanks for help
Cliff

MacLeod

Big guy with a 2 foot long bear? That would be Matt Roberts. He is one of the best SQ competitors in the world! Took best of show at finals last year. His truck is awesome!

I also use the 9861 and while its a great head unit for competition with its optical out, it wont control the 700 or 701. The best way is to get the remote controller for them. Makes it 10 times easier to tune.

cliff257

I didnt mention his name because wasnt sure about you guys relationship. But yes ole matt schooled me today!!! Talked with him for about 3 hours. Told me to go to the show this weekend and meet as many people as I can to get advise and see the setups. I mean he got 10 grand in two pieces of equipment!!!

What are you guys using for power. I told matt i was using jl he laughed at me. Hurt my feelings:( So it sounds like time to upgrade power and was leaning toward audison. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

MacLeod

LOL! He is the man! His truck is one of maybe 5 systems in the WORLD that has reached that most coveted point to where it sounds closer to a home audio system than a car audio system. Listen when he talks.

Im of a different mind set on amps than Matt I reckon. To me, a watt is a watt. A JL Audio watt will sound just like a Zapco watt. So long as the amps are well built, free of noise and make the power you need cleanly (which JL's do) thats all that matters.

I ran Crossfire amps my fist 2 years of competition and Im running the Polk PA amps now and have been getting good results.

Now there is nothing wrong with going with an Audison, Zapco or Genesis setup if you can afford it but if you cant, you can get just as far with a JL setup.

cliff257

Yes thanks for the advise on the amps. I figured there was power and there was clean power and the jl's are about the bottom of the clean power chart.

Oh i listened to him like i listen to you guys!! What PA amps are you running for the front stage? I believe I will always have the jl sub with the jl amp I think its as good as I want. But thinking about upgrading for the door speakers. No to bring down the pa amps down but i believe i wont be moving up to much if i get those vs jl. With that is the audison, zapco and genesis what you would recommend?

Macleod will you be a this show in SC tomorrow? I believe I am gonna go from car to car asking 50 questions!!

MacLeod

No. Ive been to the last 2 Elite Summer Nationals and had a blast but me and the wife just had a kid a few weeks ago so money and time are a little tight right now. It sucks too cause I love this show!

Look for Kirk Proffitt and ask to listen to his Acura. Its another one thats closer to a home system than car system.

Im running the PA500.4 bi-amped to my SR6500's up front then running the PA1200.1 to a single SR124DVC.

arun1963

me and the wife just had a kid a few weeks ago

Congrats Mac!! My little girl who read the post with me is asking me if its a baby boy or a baby girl.

MacLeod

Baby boy! Which if fine with me cause it means in 5 years or so, I wont have to do yard work anymore!

arun1963

Nah!! U'll be a tough on the outside and a softie inside, kinda dad. The best kind.

Greg Peters

cliff257 wrote: »

Wondering if you guys can find me a h701. I was told they're out there I just need to talk to the right people.

Also what are you guys using to control these processors? Presently I am using a dva-9861 for one vehicle and just got the deh-p800 for another. I want the h701 for the alpine headunit. Does anyone know if the headunit will control all the functions on the h701?

Again thanks for help
Cliff

If you want a new one, they're officially discontinued but there may still be select Alpine distributors with one sitting on the shelf. They show up NIB and used on eBay from time to time, and there were a few examples here:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/classifieds/

The RUX-c701 controller is what you'll need to run it from the dash, unless you happen have select Alpine double-DIN head units or one of a few more rare single DIN DVD units...they might even be worth tracking down if you want to run your signal via optical to the H701 processor.

pushkanak

This thread has been most helpful for me, considering that I'm about to install the SR6500 into a Jeep Liberty, and the Venezuelan car audio installers are very pathetic.. they only know how to throw in some kicker subs and some low end 5-way speakers without regards to how and where they install it. There are no SQ car audio shows whatsoever either. So I'm really needing a lot of help regarding quality SQ installation of this set of comps:

1) I'm still not sure what is on-axis tweeter placement. I understood from this thread that it means to place the tweeters on the A-Pillars facing to the center of the car. But where exactly is such center? See, I uploaded a picture (see attached) of the vehicle's interior, to help you help me find an on-axis placement. In the picture, I found two locations, labeled as 1 and 2. In 1, it would be on the car tweeters' stock location, firing towards the windshield, while in 2 it would be in a pod on the A-Pillars, firing to [**please indicate here where exactly should it point to**]. However, this location would not be above the dash level since there is an obstruction in the A-Pillars (signaled by the red arrow), unless I install it above such obstruction, but I think it would be too high then. Please help me find a good on-axis install for the tweeters in the picture, defining also where should the tweeters face.

2) Should the mids be on-axis too? I ask since it was mentioned in this thread that the mids should be on-axis. I'm thinking on installing them in the Jeep's front door 6.5'' stock location, but it is under knee level, and it would not be firing towards the driver's seat, but to my lower legs.

3) It was also mentioned that the drivers should not be enclosed, since they work better on free air. But how can I do this? I'm thinking that if I install the tweeters in some pods on the A-Pillars, it would then be enclosed. How could they be on free air?

4) My head unit will be the Pioneer PRS800, having TA capabilities, as well as xovers and 32 band equalizer for the right and left sides separately (right?). It was mentioned that if someone has TA, then out of phase setup for tweeters would not be necessary. But it was also mentioned that if the tweeters are installed distantly from the mids, then out of phase is necessary. So I don't know if I should do this. If I should, then please link me to some web that explains this since I can't find any info about this.

5) According to post #65, McLeod has (or had) this crossover setup:

Tweeter:
highpass= 4KHz@24db(most common) to 5KHz@12db
attenuation= -4 to -8db
phase= 0 to 180 degrees pending driver separation and use of time alignment

Midrange:
lowpass= 4KHz@24bd(most common) to 5KHz@24db
highpass= 40Hz to 63Hz (pending volume tastes) @24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

Now, would that be active of passive crossover? The amp I will use to power the SR6500 is the pa500.4, and I don't know whether if I should achieve that crossover setup with the amp's crossovers, the SR6500's crossover, or with the head unit crossover. Or should that be done with them altogether? (I don't think I will try to do the tweeter highpass at 5khz since it was said that it's harder)

6) You also suggested this crossover setup so as to achieve more octaves from a single driver:

Crossover:
Tweeter:
highpass= 6.3KHz@12db
attenuation= -8db
phase= 0

Midrange:
lowpass= 6.3KHz@12db
highpass= 40Hz@24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

TA settings:
Left Tweeter -6 Right Tweeter -7
Left mid -4.65 Right Mid -3.50
Sub -0

Would that sound better than the crossover setup described in the previous point? Is it as easy to achieve this one as it was with the previous one?

I'm sorry if this post was long, but its longitude is a mere reflection of the amount of knowledge I still got to learn about this topic.

MacLeod

pushkanak wrote: »

1) I'm still not sure what is on-axis tweeter placement. I understood from this thread that it means to place the tweeters on the A-Pillars facing to the center of the car. But where exactly is such center? See, I uploaded a picture (see attached) of the vehicle's interior, to help you help me find an on-axis placement. In the picture, I found two locations, labeled as 1 and 2. In 1, it would be on the car tweeters' stock location, firing towards the windshield, while in 2 it would be in a pod on the A-Pillars, firing to [**please indicate here where exactly should it point to**]. However, this location would not be above the dash level since there is an obstruction in the A-Pillars (signaled by the red arrow), unless I install it above such obstruction, but I think it would be too high then. Please help me find a good on-axis install for the tweeters in the picture, defining also where should the tweeters face.

On axis means facing you. Say if youre sitting in the driver seat looking at the windshield and the tweeters is in the A pillar pointing at the opposite A pillar then its 90 degress off axis.

I wouldnt use #1 as theyre too far inside. #2 would be the better spot esepcially if you could aim them towards the opposite side head rest.

2) Should the mids be on-axis too? I ask since it was mentioned in this thread that the mids should be on-axis. I'm thinking on installing them in the Jeep's front door 6.5'' stock location, but it is under knee level, and it would not be firing towards the driver's seat, but to my lower legs.

If possible, it is best to have the mids firing in as much as possible however the more you turn them towards you, the more narrow your stage becomes. If you can angle them in some that would be best. If not, dont sweat it as the SR mids have outstanding off axis performance.

3) It was also mentioned that the drivers should not be enclosed, since they work better on free air. But how can I do this? I'm thinking that if I install the tweeters in some pods on the A-Pillars, it would then be enclosed. How could they be on free air?

The tweeters are already enclosed. Its the mids that you want to keep free air.

4) My head unit will be the Pioneer PRS800, having TA capabilities, as well as xovers and 32 band equalizer for the right and left sides separately (right?). It was mentioned that if someone has TA, then out of phase setup for tweeters would not be necessary. But it was also mentioned that if the tweeters are installed distantly from the mids, then out of phase is necessary. So I don't know if I should do this. If I should, then please link me to some web that explains this since I can't find any info about this.

Play with them and see what sounds best. Try tuning the time alignment first and then play with them out of phase and see if they sound better.

5) According to post #65, McLeod has (or had) this crossover setup:

Tweeter:
highpass= 4KHz@24db(most common) to 5KHz@12db
attenuation= -4 to -8db
phase= 0 to 180 degrees pending driver separation and use of time alignment

Midrange:
lowpass= 4KHz@24bd(most common) to 5KHz@24db
highpass= 40Hz to 63Hz (pending volume tastes) @24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

Now, would that be active of passive crossover? The amp I will use to power the SR6500 is the pa500.4, and I don't know whether if I should achieve that crossover setup with the amp's crossovers, the SR6500's crossover, or with the head unit crossover. Or should that be done with them altogether? (I don't think I will try to do the tweeter highpass at 5khz since it was said that it's harder)

That is with an Alpine H700 processor. Neither the SR passive crossovers or the PA amp has the crossover to get those numbers.

6) You also suggested this crossover setup so as to achieve more octaves from a single driver:

Crossover:
Tweeter:
highpass= 6.3KHz@12db
attenuation= -8db
phase= 0

Midrange:
lowpass= 6.3KHz@12db
highpass= 40Hz@24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

TA settings:
Left Tweeter -6 Right Tweeter -7
Left mid -4.65 Right Mid -3.50
Sub -0

Would that sound better than the crossover setup described in the previous point? Is it as easy to achieve this one as it was with the previous one?

6.3 is really too high for the SR6500 mid. It will play that high even off axis (the more off axis you get, the less intense higher frequencies become) but rolls off sharply after that point so it wont blend well at all with the tweeters. 4 KHz is the sweet spot to start with. Not saying its the ultimate crossover point, but its the best one to begin your tuning with.

pushkanak

Thanks a lot MacLeod, for your valuable insights. Now:

MacLeod wrote: »

The tweeters are already enclosed. Its the mids that you want to keep free air.

And how exactly can I keep the mids on free air? If I install them on the 6.5'' stock location from the car's front doors, would the be enclosed or free air? If enclosed is the case, then how can I go free air?

MacLeod wrote: »

That is with an Alpine H700 processor. Neither the SR passive crossovers or the PA amp has the crossover to get those numbers.

And does the Pioneer 800PRS has the capacity to get those numbers, as the Alpine H700 does?

MacLeod

pushkanak wrote: »

And how exactly can I keep the mids on free air? If I install them on the 6.5'' stock location from the car's front doors, would the be enclosed or free air? If enclosed is the case, then how can I go free air?

The inside of a door is free air.

And does the Pioneer 800PRS has the capacity to get those numbers, as the Alpine H700 does?

Honestly Im not familiar with that CD player so I cant say for sure.