How to tune the SR's

Greg Peters

MacLeod wrote: »

Im a firm believer in having as many octaves as possible coming from a single source and if you can get the mids to play up to 5 KHz, then that leaves only 2 octaves coming from the tweeters and 6-8 coming from the mids (depending how low you play them). So I recommend at least starting with that setting and then tweak from there according to your own personal taste. Even now with my ST6500's Ive got them up to 5 KHz. They dont play that high as easy as the 5250's so I had to do a little tweaking to get them to work. I also have the mids rolling off at 24 db but the tweets at 12 db like before.

I also had good results with both crossed over at 4 KHz. 12 db slopes worked ok but I liked 24 db slopes on both when set at 4 K. Just seemed to focus up better.

Thanks, Mac...when the PXA H701 comes in (hopefully this week) I'll start planning going active. Appreciate the guidelines and insight.

donkeypunch22

I am so glad I was directed to this site from dirthog, I've learned so much so thanks to MacLeod and to dirthog!

MacLeod, so far I see these crossover points, slopes, attenuation, and phase settings from you:

Tweeter:
highpass= 4KHz @24db
attenuation= -8db
phase= 180 degrees

Midrange:
lowpass= 4KHz @24bd
highpass= 40Hz to 63Hz (pending volume tastes) @????
attenuation= ????
phase= 0

MacLeod, would you please fill in the "????" areas? Thanks for your time!
PS-Actually, anyone please feel free to answer the question also, especially if you run these in an Audi S4!

MacLeod

I leave my mids at -0 db. They carry the bulk of the frequency so I tune everything to match up with them.

The slopes for the high pass on my mids is usually 24 db/octacve.

Just so ya know - these arent meant to be the perfect settings. Ive actually since moved my crossover up to 5 KHz with the tweets at 12 db/octave and the mids at 24 db/octave. But this setting took a little tweaking to get it to work just right. The 4 @ 24db/octave I feel is the best "plug and play" setting which is best for somebody that doesnt have that extensive an EQ.

Same goes for the level settings. I had mine at -8. With my current tune, theyre at -4 because Im using the tweeters to carry some upper midrange - but again this took some work to get it together. The tweeter attenuation will depend on your musical tastes, where theyre mounted and the interior of your car. Regardless of all that tho, I feel pretty safe in saying youll have them at least -3.

Also, wiring the tweeters out of phase works if you dont have time alignement. I found that in my car 1.15 ms delay was spot on in blending the mids and tweets and it was no longer necessary for me to run them out of phase. So if you have TA, work with it some and see if you cant get things to blend without changing the polarity.

donkeypunch22

For all those wanting to know what MacLeod's settings are without reading through every post, here you go. Thanks MacLeod!

So far I he's given these crossover points, slopes, attenuation, and phase settings:

Tweeter:
highpass= 4KHz@24db(most common) to 5KHz@12db
attenuation= -4 to -8db
phase= 0 to 180 degrees pending driver separation and use of time alignment

Midrange:
lowpass= 4KHz@24bd(most common) to 5KHz@24db
highpass= 40Hz to 63Hz (pending volume tastes) @24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

Note: MacLeod uses extensive EQ to dial these settings in.

Hey perhaps, MacLeod, you could give us some of the common EQ settings you have used on the SR6500 given that you had them in two different cars and at many different cross settings ect. Again, thanks!

dirthog

donkeypunch22 wrote: »

Hey perhaps, MacLeod, you could give us some of the common EQ settings you have used on the SR6500 given that you had them in two different cars and at many different cross settings ect. Again, thanks!

Didn't he do that in the first post?

General eq settings are good to know but ultimately you need to find out what works for your car and your taste.

MacLeod

Let me say again - the 5 KHz cut off for the tweeters probably wont work very well unless you have a 31 band EQ per channel to crank on things. The 4 KHz cutoff point is the best. It offers the best tonality and imaging with the least amount of work.

The reason Im using 5 instead of 4 is simply because of imaging. Using 5 and the shallow slope gave a little more "air-iness" to the vocal and created a slightly more 3 dimensional image. Again, this took some time to dial in so if you dont have the processing power, youre probably not going to get it to work hence - 4 KHz @ 24 db/oct

shawnberry45

so run then in out of phase if you are using them as componants?

MacLeod

Run them out of phase if you have them mounted away from the mid's. This helps blend the tweeters and mids together so theyre working together and hitting your ears at the same time.

dirthog

shawnberry45 wrote: »

so run then in out of phase if you are using them as componants?

Try both to see what sounds better and also try just one or the other out of phase. Use a recording without a lot of bass and isn't too busy so you can hear the crossover point better.

Greg Peters

Spam has been reported- spammer feel free to go now .

MacLeod

Was working on my car last night getting ready for the 09 season and wanted to see how high I could run the SR6500 mids and still sound good. 6.3 KHz. Yup. A 6.5" driver capable of playing 40 Hz with authority can play up to 6.3 KHz before rolling off.

If I remember right, 3.2 was 91 db, 4 was 89 db, 5 was 90 db, 6.3 was 90 db then 8 was 84 and then it started rolling off at about 6 db per frequency which came to about an 18 db slope.

At first I couldnt get them to blend well with the tweeters cut off that high and was about to think 5 was as high as they would go but managed to get it by using a 12 db slope on the tweeters and 12 db slope on the mids. I also bumped up 5-8 on the tweeters a couple db's and it seems to be working.

Its hard to tell for sure because I dont have another car to compare to and when you sit and tune for hours, you can easily convince yourself youve struck gold only to get your **** handed to you at the next show.

The benefits of this is that you can have essentially a coaxial speaker from a single speaker. Having the mid play this high helps cut down on a lot of phase and other issues. The more octaves youve got coming from a single driver the better it will sound so Ive got 7 octaves coming from the mids and only 2 coming from the tweeters.

Granted there will be a point where you can go too high and your stage will be down in the floor but 6.3 is high enough that you can keep your imaging cues up above the dash. Thats where the 12 db slope came in and I added some more delay to the tweeters. Im up to 2.5 ms now and 95% of my stage is halfway up the windshield.

These SR's never stop impressing.

donkeypunch22

Thanks for the added input, MacLeod!

sgesang

So your setting will be:

Crossover:
Tweeter:
highpass= 6.3KHz@12db
attenuation= -8db
phase= 0

Midrange:
lowpass= 6.3KHz@12db
highpass= 40Hz@24db
attenuation= 0
phase= 0

TA settings:
Left Tweeter -7.15 Right Tweeter -6
Left mid -4.65 Right Mid -3.50
Sub -0

Kinetic

thanks a lot, i already try it, and sounds better, the only difference is that i didnt attenuate the tweets, since i already attenuate them on the amp

MacLeod

Actually I think my tweeter level is only -6 on the left and -7 on the right.

arun1963

Also, wiring the tweeters out of phase works if you dont have time alignement

Run them out of phase if you have them mounted away from the mid's. This helps blend the tweeters and mids together so theyre working together and hitting your ears at the same time.

Try both to see what sounds better and also try just one or the other out of phase. Use a recording without a lot of bass and isn't too busy so you can hear the crossover point better.

Does this mean reversing the polarity of the tweets at the amp? If so is it as simple as;

1. Unscrew and remove amp cover
2. Reverse polarity on the tweets
3. Replace amp cover.

While I do the above, the HU would be off and the front channels (where the tweets are connected) would be disabled. But the cap would still be connected to the amp. Basically want to ensure I dont get a nasty shock!!

Actual distance between mids and tweeters is 14" I am currently using TA I'm assuming the TA settings would also have to be rejigged.

Dan, as a first step if I only reverse polarity on one tweet, whcih one should I do first, the near side or far side?

How much sweeter will David Grey sound?

MacLeod

You can either flip the wires at the amp or the tweeter itself. Whichever is easiest for you. Just turn the car off and do it - no need to disconnect anything else.

If you only switch the phase on one, it wont matter which side.

If you have time alignment, you wont need to flip the polarity most of the time. Time alignment affects phase so you can fix the blending issue with TA instead. Using TA will also be a more accurate fix.

cadenceclipse

sounds like one of the points of this thread is that "preference" in tuning is a bunch of bs and each speaker is made to be tuned to a certain setting rather than differences in hearing(ear), car acoustics, music genre, etc...no?

MacLeod

Umm. No.

Its absolutely about preference and the style of music you listen to.

Jazz needs a more realistic sound in the bass and midbass or else any stand up bass guitar is going to be horribly loud.

Rock and metal have very little sub bass and midbass and due to the screeching guitars you cant turn them up loud enough to get the good bass so you need to tune your system bass heavy.

For rap you may want more sparkle or sizzle in your high end.

For rock and metal too much heat in the high end will sound very shrill and harsh.

My intent in making this thread was NOT to be saying "this is the only way to tune the SR's". My intent was to share what has worked best for me, in my car, for my music and what I am wanting out of it and for everybody else to use a kind of a jumping off point for their own sound.

arun1963

If you have time alignment, you wont need to flip the polarity most of the time.

Simple logic, if it ain't broken dont fix it. If TA is giving me better results will stick with that.

Umm. No.

Its absolutely about preference and the style of music you listen to.

Jazz needs a more realistic sound in the bass and midbass or else any stand up bass guitar is going to be horribly loud.

Rock and metal have very little sub bass and midbass and due to the screeching guitars you cant turn them up loud enough to get the good bass so you need to tune your system bass heavy.

For rap you may want more sparkle or sizzle in your high end.

For rock and metal too much heat in the high end will sound very shrill and harsh.

My intent in making this thread was NOT to be saying "this is the only way to tune the SR's". My intent was to share what has worked best for me, in my car, for my music and what I am wanting out of it and for everybody else to use a kind of a jumping off point for their own sound.

Each genre of music requires a different setting as explained by mac. Further within a genre, different cd are recorded differently and it is possible to tweak the setting for each CD to make it sound "best". For me tuning is THE ESSENCE.

When I tune, I divide the sound into five sections,

Subsonic bass : You dont hear this you feel it typically 15-30hz (approx)
Sub Bass : 30-60 hz
Mid bass : 60-200
Mids: 200-3khz
Highs: 3khz-20khz (as a stand alone you can barely hear 12.5 and 20khz is beyond audible reach. however in conjunction with the other high frequencies you can hear the effects of 12.5 and 20khz)

I try to hear each section seperately. I also try and build visual cues. I will typically try to visualise the outline of a man and divide this outline into 4-5 sections. So from the top the head to the nose would be the highs, from the nose to the chest would be the mids, from the chest to the waist is the bid bass and so on. By tuning I want these sections perfectly aligned and the outline itself should be sharp. I believe candence is a glass painter. When I can see the outline done in a medium-fine brush and all the sections aligned, my soundstage and imaging are right. I hope this made some sense.


My objectives while tuning are

1. The mid bass should start at the top of the dash and the highs should go up to the top of the windscreen.

2. The width of the stage should be centred at half the width of the windscreen. All all mid bass upwards frequencies should come from this area. You dont want the stage getting to close to either side speaker. If you close your eyes you should not be able to tell where the speakers are. The sound should come in one channel from front and each frequency should have its own identity and all the frequencies should blend well to form the sharp outline.




I find that using both auditory and visual cues to tune the sound works best for me. This is what works for me

sgesang

arun1963 wrote: »

Does this mean reversing the polarity of the tweets at the amp? If so is it as simple as;

1. Unscrew and remove amp cover
2. Reverse polarity on the tweets
3. Replace amp cover.

While I do the above, the HU would be off and the front channels (where the tweets are connected) would be disabled. But the cap would still be connected to the amp. Basically want to ensure I dont get a nasty shock!!

Actual distance between mids and tweeters is 14" I am currently using TA I'm assuming the TA settings would also have to be rejigged.

Dan, as a first step if I only reverse polarity on one tweet, whcih one should I do first, the near side or far side?

How much sweeter will David Grey sound?

After setting TA, try to listen L & R channels separately (adjust the balance control from your HU all the way back to L or R). Start with either L or R channel, while listen to it, pay attention to where is the sound coming from. if you hear the sound is "barking" directly from the speaker, flip the tweeter phase. If you hear the illusion of soundstage is wider / higher and the sound seems not coming from the speaker, keep the setting and adjust the other side as well. After you have adjusted both tweeter phases, put both channels back in center and listen carefully if soundstage is much better. If you hear the sound shift off center, you need to do minor adjustment of your TA only from the driver's side. I hope this help about adjusting the tweeter phase.

arun1963

Tks sgesang. Yes I do what you mention as pat of my tuning routine.

Need to appologise to candence and mac for my last post. Content and context out of line. Just got my knickers twisted by the suggestion that tuning was pointless. Jeez that is my reason for existance.

With that out of the way, I have two questions, the first is directed at Mac and the second is for all who read this thread:

1. How would the sr's sound bi-amped thru two 2 ch tube amps?

2. What % of listening time to your car rigs is devoted to tweaking and % devoted to pure listening and enjoying the sound?

MacLeod

arun1963 wrote: »

1. How would the sr's sound bi-amped thru two 2 ch tube amps?

Tubes? Yeck. I dont use tubes for the same reason I dont use wagon wheels. Radials are so much better. But if you wanted to spend $4000 on a tube amp then they would sound warmer......because tubes dont have a flat frequency response. They roll off at the top end. So you could spend $4000 on a tube amp or you could spend $200 on a solid state amp, tune the high end down and have the same sound.

2. What % of listening time to your car rigs is devoted to tweaking and % devoted to pure listening and enjoying the sound?

In the height of competition season and especially a couple months out from finals I easily spend 10-12 hours a week sitting in my car tuning.

arun1963

The more I mess with this, the more I think its a simple phasing issue as its smearing only to the right side. When I play with time alignment I can get things to focus up pretty good but the center image is over the steering wheel instead of the middle of the dash. So Im coming to the conclusion that the fix for this could be in speaker placement by getting them both on axis to the listener.

I have sacrificed a bit of stage width and tiny amt on focus to get the centre image in the middle of the windscreen. I looked at the image centre as the outline of a man. I needed to move this outline to the left ie from over the wheel to the centre of the windshield. So I divided the outline into sections and then moved each section to the left. For each frequency that I can tune, I first recorded an equal level from my tuning cd and then boosted most on the left a bit. That moved the image to the left. We have right hand drive here.


So now I have the centre image dead centre on the windshield but I traded a bit of focus and width. Currently I'm tuning to increase the width and chisel down the xover freq 50-80hz. Mids are crossed at 6hz. Prob would not work from a competitive standpoint, but for a general listener like me its working..........so far :-)

arun1963

Last post was not about trying to tell you something you didnt know (may be dumb but am not stupid ).....would really appreciate if you could validate the below:

I think the reason the above works for me is that I sit on the right side. Hence the frequencies that are brighter on the left are now less so because of greater distance. Simmilarly the frequencies that are brighter on the right are now much brighter becoz I'm nearer. The right side mid is at 32" and the left at 46". Could this be the reason? I don't have a meter to check, but using the tuning cd also gives more or less the same result. If this is correct then playing the tuning cd and measuring left and right side should give different results sitting in the left seat vs right seat. Is this true?

200-400 which is supposed to be much brighter on the left works this way for me:

200: -5 L / -4 R.
315: -2 L / -2 R

2khz : -2 L / -5 R

3.15khz : -5 L / -3 or -4 R

8, 12.5 and 20khz are just as you mention. 8 brighter on the right, 12.5 on the left and 20 brighter on the right.

This focuses the sound at the centre of the windshield, with the female vocalist just to the left of the male vocalist. The music starts and fades out from the centre of the sound image.

Good luck with the competition season.

MacLeod

Nothing to validate bro. First off, each car, speaker system and amp power is going to be different so I what is whacked in my car may be perfectly fine in yours.

Second, its yo' world my brother. If you like the center image slapped all the way to the passenger side, thats fine and dandy. Youre the one paying for it and youre the one listening to it so as long as youre not worried about impressing a SQ judge, your opinion is all that matters.

arun1963

Its not that I prefer the sound image

slapped all the way to the passenger side

Based on my understanding from the various threads, (an oxymoron for sure ), the image centre needs to be centre of windshield (center of the windshield width) at eye level. That point, is to my left as I sit.

If on the other hand centre of windshield means half way up the windscreen but directly in front of me, then obviously what I'm doing is technically wrong

Want to know what is technically correct from an SQ standpoint.

Cant help being a PITA noob.

MacLeod

First off, there is no set point for where the center should be. Not like at your mirror or whatever. The center image should be in the center of your sound stage. so if your stage goes from just inside the left a pillar to outside the right a pillar then the center should be to the right of the rear view mirror.

The stage height should be just above eye level You should feel like youre slightly looking up at it. All of the stage should be at least above the dash. Lower frequency stuff should not drop down to the doors at all.

Depth should be as deep as possible but youre not going to get it beyond the windhsield really without moving the speakers out there.

Width should be outside the a pillars in a perfect world. You will likely be able to achieve this on the drivers side with some frequencies but not all and itll be a lot harder to do on the passenger side.

arun1963

Took me about 8hrs over two days, to finally get close to what you described. My sound stage at this point is like a large air cushion of sound that floats over the dash and goes to the top of the windshield. What I love about it, is the palpable depth. It feels 3d. It stretches from about 10" inside the right a pillar to about the left a pillar (right hand drive). This needs tweaking.

To get here, I had to first understand what you were saying, then follow the tuning basics that you mention here and as well as the general trends from your competition sheets that you posted on the sq thread.

The challenge I'm struggling with now, is to focus up the different elements on the stage. The bass, the percussions, the vocals are better off than the instruments, but they could also use some sharpening. Accoustic guitars are a big problem. The pluck is fine but middle and top drift sharply to the right side. Some other instruments also do this. Dirthog had sent me a sheet that gives key frequencies for various instruments, I finally understand its relevance and am going to use it.

The eq settings I have now are as under.

20hz : 0 L&R
31.5 : -1 L&R
50hz : -3 L&R
80hz : -5 L / -4 R mid xover is at 63 but I cant control 63 from hu.
125hz : -4 L / -3 R
200hz : -6 L / -5 R
315hz : -3 L / -1 R
500hz : -3 L / -4 R candaddy was right that the momo mids have a spike here
800hz : -1 L&R
1.25khz : -3 L & R. I havent figured this one out fully.
2khz : -5 L / -4 R
3.15khz : -4 L / -3 R
5khz: -3 L / -3 R
8khz : -3 L / -5 R
12.5khz : -5 L / -4 R
20khz : 0 L / -1 R

Thanks bro.

MacLeod

Go to Radio Shack and buy one of their SPL meters. Its about $50 and worth every penny if youre wanting to get the best out of your system. Walmart has one for a little over $20 but its not as good.

Next get some filtered pink noise test tones at 1/3 octave. Dont use test tones use filtered pink noise. Test tones are ok up to about 800 Hz then they start bouncing around everywhere and not only will be hard to tune but will also make you see stars. The Autosound 2000 disc #3 has this.

Now play the tracks and fade left to right reading the output on the SPL meter. Adjust til theyre even. Let your ears be the final judge. If the SPL meter sayd 1000 Hz is hotter on the left side but you obviously hear it hotter on the right, believe your ears.