SL2000 response charts in sda compendium show no spikes
candyliquor35m
Posts: 2,267
I'm looking at the response charts in the sda compendium and see no spikes on them.
Post edited by candyliquor35m on
Comments
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candyliquor35m wrote: »I'm looking at the response charts in the sda compendium and see no spikes on them.
Then why have you modified yours? -
It wasn't my idea. Someone recommended the mod on here ~2006.
The compendium also mentions that the 13khz prominence (peak) may have largely been due to the design of the crossover. -
I think it would be best to lock this thread now.
You are just stirring the pot on a subject that you like to argue about. -
Hey cl a little of topic but my RDOs arrived and set up. Initially I thought that the speakers lacked the sparkle of the 2000s. After 5 or 6 hrs I was still underwhelmed. Vocals seemed set back. Then I turn up the gain. The speakers bloomed and now I see the truth in all the recommendations. I'll run them for a few hundred hours and then gige the 2000s another chance, but I think the RDOs will stay.
Were you listening at too low volume? -
I
You have a right to your opinion but all the comments I've seen on here in the past indicated that no response charts existed so this is definitely news worthy. -
mudslinger wrote: »Hey cl a little of topic but my RDOs arrived and set up. Initially I thought that the speakers lacked the sparkle of the 2000s. After 5 or 6 hrs I was still underwhelmed. Vocals seemed set back. Then I turn up the gain. The speakers bloomed and now I see the truth in all the recommendations. I'll run them for a few hundred hours and then gige the 2000s another chance, but I think the RDOs will stay.
Were you listening at too low volume?
I have nothing against the rd0's and I'm glad you like them. I tried them for months at my normal listening level which is usually 9 o'clock and I couldn't adjust to them. I always ended up putting the sl2000 back in. If they are a tweeter that needs the volume turned up for them to shine then they still aren't the right tweeter for me. -
Have you rebuilt your crossovers yet?"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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At 9 vocals seemed a little far back, just a small nudge in gain moved them forward. There is a point where all speakers bloom. I thing the 2000s shimmer more at lower volumes, but it takes a certain amount of volume for the entire speaker to open up. Of course different strokes and all that.
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Have you rebuilt your crossovers yet?
If you're talking to me: As incredible as my 4 pair of sda's sound right now, I have no plans at this point to upgrade any x-overs. -
mudslinger, it takes 24 to 48 hours for those new tweeters to burn in, eh!?!Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
If they sounded so incredible, why are you constantly playing with them?candyliquor35m wrote: »If you're talking to me: As incredible as my 4 pair of sda's sound right now, I have no plans at this point to upgrade any x-overs.How do you tame a stock tweeter that's a little bright
but not too loud?
This has been asked on another forum but the only answer I got was to replace the tweeter which would cost me $1000 because I have 4 different models of these speakers and they all use the same tweeter (20 in all).
I've tried 2 of the replacement tweeters and they sounded completely different than the stock tweeter which is no longer available. I'm not bashing the replacement tweeter but it sounded dull and lifeless to me. I tried for months to adjust to it in the model that only uses 2 tweeters.
The stock tweeter is bright to some but others love it exactly the way it is. It didn't become a bit bright to me until I kept moving up the audio chain (better wires and cables mostly but equipment also).
All my equipment is stock (no DIY) and all tube except 2 carver amps). I'm posting in DIY because this is kind of a DIY/tweaking kind of question.
This stock tweeter is the most open and full range tweeter I've ever heard and that is a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that it produces a soundstage that is hard to match (Carver Amazings come to mind) but the curse is that huge soundstage can make it sound a little harsh with certain music.
I've thoroughly tested my method with many hours of listening and I'm about 95-99% satisfied but as a continual tweaker, I am wondering if there is a better method out there.
On 10 of the tweeters, I was able to put a single 1.0 uf/mfd 250 v radial mylar cap to block just enough of the harsh mids that were causing the brightness but still allow the upper less harsh mids to get passed to the tweeters to prevent the huge soundstage from getting diminished.
On 4 of the tweeters, I had to use a .47 uf/mfd 250 v radial mylar cap to block a fraction more of the harsh mids than the other 10.
On 6 of the tweeters, no cap was needed due to different crossover points at the crossover.
I'm not going to name the brand of the speaker because I don't think that is important. I'm looking for general and/or specific tweaks that might work better or improve upon what I've already done.
thanksI'm playing with a crossover for a tweeter and all I can find are 1.0 uf and 2.2 uf caps and I tried both already but not completely satisfied with either. I want to try something in the middle about 1.5 uf. What value caps do I need to run in parallel to get a 1.5 uf?
The 1.0 changes the crossover point too much and and 2.2 doesn't change it enough.
I have .33, .47. 50, and .68, 1.0 and 2.2's on hand to play with.
Both posts were made within the last couple of days."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
Yup thats what I hear F1.
All the rest is icing.
The tweeters with a new AT cartridge, before break in , sounding pretty damn good already. -
"I've thoroughly tested my method with many hours of listening and I'm about 95-99% satisfied but as a continual tweaker, I am wondering if there is a better method out there."
This thread is about the existance of the sl2000 response charts in the compenium not about x-over or tweeter mods.
Have a good day.
I know I am. -
Face, that was the best response I have seen in a long time.
I'm done with this thread. I might resort to that ignore button now. -
He just likes the attention....that's all.Richard? Who's your favorite Little Rascal? Alfalfa? Or is it........................Spanky?.................................Sinner.
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It's actually quite nice [the ignore button]. Now all I see is him making an a$$ out of himself, but I don't have to read all the BS to find this out. Novel idea if you ask me.Face, that was the best response I have seen in a long time.
I'm done with this thread. I might resort to that ignore button now.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
candyliquor35m wrote: »I'm looking at the response charts in the sda compendium and see no spikes on them.
Ummm......"Figure 5.2 shows the composite response of the four (SL2000) tweeters from 1 Hz to 26 kHz. Note the peak in the composite response at approximately 13.4 kHz."
Now, Figure 5.4 (using SL3000's in the SRS) also shows a peak at 13 kHz, but one needs to consider that the SL3000 was not designed to be used with the SRS crossover, so I feel safe in saying that info doesn't have much, if any, validity. No offense to the author.
So, there it is. The SL2000 spike is clearly shown.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
First, he wants to first prove it doesn't exist.
Then, later in this thread he can reveal to everyone his orgasmic solution to the problem.
Then, he can go on other forums and talk about a problem and how good his solution is to it.
But, the problem doesn't exist.
That all adds up to a trouble-maker in my book. Sorry, Carl. We've even met in person and done some business. But, this has to stop. Please.
[Edit] Have a nice day.
[Edit] I know I will.
[Edit] How imaginative is that? -
Ummm
There's nothing to debate here. Of course the tweeter peaks at 13.4. It has to peak somewhere but there is no spike on the chart whatsoever, just a smooth curve like you would expect from a tweeter.
The claim has been that there is a spike and there is none unless you want to debate the accuracy of raife's charts.
I can't post the chart without raife's permission since the compendium has a copyright.
This whole claim has been a play on words. The sl2000 peaks at 13.4 and some have interpreted that to mean a spike but there is no spike. -
Peak/Spike/Hump/Bump/Hill/Raise...........call it what the hell you want to Carl, its simply semantics, or is that simply antics, to push someones buttons. I've never ever used the ignore feature, in 10 years of internet forum patronage, but this petty **** is even getting to me............HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable
2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable -
I've said my piece and there isn't anything to debate. The charts speak for themselves.
dennis, there isn't anything there. not a Spike/Hump/Bump/Hill/Raise etc. -
Don't they make medicine for conditions like this?Richard? Who's your favorite Little Rascal? Alfalfa? Or is it........................Spanky?.................................Sinner.
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Don't they make medicine for conditions like this?
Yeah, a spike through the heart, or is that a silver bullet, I can't recall.....;)HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable
2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable -
Oh by the way Carl, my prom date - Her name was Kim. Very nice girl, we went out for several years.
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I think just about everyone, including the good folks at Polk Audio, will agree that the SL3000 was an major improvement over the SL2000. The fact that Polk developed the SL3000 to replace the SL2000 is testament to that. Furthermore, when the SL3000 could no longer be made Polk set about to replace it. Did they go back to the polymide type dome found in the SL2000? Of course not, they knew that tweeter to be inferior and who wants to make something new that is inferior to something 20 plus years old? That's just not logical. So, a new tweeter was born from superior technology and materials, the RD0 series. As I believe, most will agree that the SL3000 replacement, the RD0198-1 is at least equal to or better than the SL3000 and IMO, is much better. Therefore, it would stand to reason that the SL2000 replacement, the RD0194-1, which is based on the RD0198-1 would also be better than the SL2000. It's pure logic.
To prove that the SL3000 was superior to the the SL2000 and therefore prove that the RD0 series is also superior, I offer the following quotes from a white paper published in 1989 by Matthew Polk, which can also be found in The SDA Compendium.
"After nearly two years of effort, the research phase of the SL3000 project was complete. Our measurements showed that we had achieved our performance goals. In fact, we were confident that we had set new standards in respect to bandwidth, flatness of response (see figure G), phase linearity and power handling. But would these technical benefits translate to superior audible performance? Would the technology serve the music?
It was decided to introduce the SL3000 in our best speaker, the SRS 1.2. Immediately we heard dramatic, though expected, sonic benefits; high frequencies were smoother, extended and more detailed. What surprised us were the improvements in sound quality in frequencies below those reproduced by the tweeter. Voices and mid-range instruments were stripped of all coloration and inner detail was vastly improved.
Research showed that frequency response peaks in a tweeter draw the listener's attention, thereby masking detail in the mid-range. Additionally, by changing the harmonic structure, tweeters with resonant peaks create colorations in low and mid-frequency fundamentals."
Now, if one knows how to actually read a graph chart one can see that for the SL3000 the Peak/Spike/Hump/Bump/Hill/Raise varies by no more than 2 dB across the entire range and in fact, is pretty damn flat. Now, compare that to the 5 dB Peak/Spike/Hump/Bump/Hill/Raise in the SL2000 and one can clearly see which tweeter has the flatter response. The benefits of which can be clearly heard.
In conclusion, since the SL3000 is better than the SL2000 and the RDO198-1 is equal to or better than the SL3000, then the RD0194-1, which is based on the RD0198-1, is clearly superior to the SL2000.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
As if any further proof was needed.
From the November 1987 issue of Stereo Review,
"We noted with interest that the 5-dB tweeter resonance peak at 13,000 Hz that we found in the earlier version was again present in the SDA-1c."Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
candyliquor35m wrote: »I've said my piece and there isn't anything to debate. The charts speak for themselves.
dennis, there isn't anything there. not a Spike/Hump/Bump/Hill/Raise etc.
So, then we have this nugget from a previous post, http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=823236&postcount=202candyliquor35m wrote:I'm not trying to fix the spike which no one has probably ever heard with their ears. It's on the chart but I've never heard it so I'm not worried about it.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
candyliquor35m wrote: »I've said my piece and there isn't anything to debate. The charts speak for themselves.
dennis, there isn't anything there. not a Spike/Hump/Bump/Hill/Raise etc.
Have you read any reviews of the day of SDA's or RTA's that use the sl2000? Because they all curiously mention a +5dB resonance peak at about 13Khz for Polks that use the sl2000. I'd take their measurements as pretty accurate since they are in the business of testing all kinds of electronics.
Just wondered if you bothered to do any other research other than what supports your POV.
To give you (1) reference: pg. 42 lower right column almost at the bottom; November 1987 Stereo Review. There are others but I'll let you do the work.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
candyliquor35m wrote: »There's nothing to debate here. Of course the tweeter peaks at 13.4. It has to peak somewhere but there is no spike on the chart whatsoever, just a smooth curve like you would expect from a tweeter.
This whole claim has been a play on words. The sl2000 peaks at 13.4 and some have interpreted that to mean a spike but there is no spike.
From dictionary.com
Peak:
–noun
1. the pointed top of a mountain or ridge.
2. a mountain with a pointed summit.
3. the pointed top of anything.
4. the highest or most important point or level
5. the maximum point, degree, or volume of anything
8.Physics.
a. the maximum value of a quantity during a specified time interval: a voltage peak.
b. the maximum power consumed or produced by a unit or group of units in a stated period of time.
–adjective
17. being at the point of maximum frequency, intensity,
Spike
4. an abrupt increase or rise:
Looks to be the same to me (peak or spike mean the same thing)
Look especially at the physics and adjective definition; this is EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of what you want in sound reproduction. Peaks are not good at all and nothing will be perfectly flat.
The sound of the tweeter is grating, harsh, and it resonates a lot at certain frequencies most notably piano, some brass and some female vocals. Some of the shortcomings are not due the the peak so it's not only the spike (peak) but the nature of the tweeter that most all of us dislike.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
candyliquor35m wrote: »The compendium also mentions that the 13khz prominence (peak) may have largely been due to the design of the crossover.
I have great respect for Raife and his research because he's through, does some very technical testing, etc. But, my take on it is that he was just throwing that comment out there. If this were the case then the RD0 would have the same peak (spike), it doesn't. Again the peak isn't the only thing that makes the sl2000 sound like doo doo.
Our ears are very finely tuned instruments and the best testament to me is the fact with the RD0's after extended listening for several hours at normal listening levels I no longer get a splitting headache like I almost always used to get (20 years) listening to sl2000's. Vocals are much smoother and more natural, piano sounds like it's supposed, cymbals sound a tad more realistic and brass and string instruments sound exceptional.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
