Buying a GM, what will happen.....

madmax

My cousin was making $65K a year for assembling a wire harness. Although this seems like a lot when you first look at it, it is a tedious job which much be performed time after time no matter how much it makes you puke. I'm just thinking it is questionable whether you want to do "this" job for $65K or if you wouldn't be happier doing a normal type non-production type job for 5-10K less per year. Something with variation that doesn't make you consider suicide every evening of your life. Sure, on the outside it looks a little cushy and overpaid. I Just have to wonder.
madmax

bobman1235

madmax wrote: »

GM offers a decent living to their employees.

Arguably at the expense of the profitability of their business. I'm glad a company wants to do right by their employees (although they don't really, the unions just strongarm them into it), but at the same time, how much is the job worth when you could have anyone with a third grade education do it? (gross generalization, of course, many jobs require a skilled technician; many don't.)

Usually jobs are highly paid because not many people CAN do them, or not many people WANT to do them. Maybe working an assembly line is really that horrible that no one wants to do it and it warrants that kind of pay; one would think the solution would be to make teh job more palatable than to go bankrupt trying to pay people to do it.

sucks2beme

Once again, although the union workers may be overpaid/cushy benifits,
the real issue is the vehicle. Not up to par. DESIGN, DESIGN, DESIGN.
The quest for better MPG has them trying unproven design changes.
Remember the 8/6/4 Caddies? Junk! The first 4 or 5 years of overdrive
trannies were very bad. The 2.5 motors in Gran Ams would crack heads at
about 90-110k just like a ticking time bomb. The list goes on and on.
How about some stress testing of stuff before rolling it out to
production? How about maybe a racing program that results in better
production products? NASCAR used to have some benifit. Now it's just
an exercise in frame/fiberglass fab. Use dealer service info as real time
product feedback, like Toyota does. A couple of years of real effort would
turn it around. All it takes is a little leadership. And that's seems to be a
stretch for modern U.S. management.

tonyb

What will happen if you buy a GM ? ......HMMM.....for starters,your head will blow up like a balloon,your throat will slowly close,testicles will shrink forcing your other half to promptly hit the road,your toes will curl up,your neighbors,the global warming freaks,will give you dirty looks where ever you go,and your mother will stop making you home cooked meals........yeah man,go ahead and get it!:p:)

Jstas

sucks2beme wrote: »

Once again, although the union workers may be overpaid/cushy benifits,
the real issue is the vehicle. Not up to par. DESIGN, DESIGN, DESIGN.
The quest for better MPG has them trying unproven design changes.
Remember the 8/6/4 Caddies? Junk! The first 4 or 5 years of overdrive
trannies were very bad. The 2.5 motors in Gran Ams would crack heads at
about 90-110k just like a ticking time bomb. The list goes on and on.
How about some stress testing of stuff before rolling it out to
production? How about maybe a racing program that results in better
production products? NASCAR used to have some benifit. Now it's just
an exercise in frame/fiberglass fab. Use dealer service info as real time
product feedback, like Toyota does. A couple of years of real effort would
turn it around. All it takes is a little leadership. And that's seems to be a
stretch for modern U.S. management.

Dude, those examples are 20 years old or more. How is it even remotely relevant to today?

daniel_paul_

I never understood the Toyota following. Sure their stuff doesn't break, but my parents Camery sucks. The suspension is the bounciest most out of control I have ever felt. The rear seats are the most uncomfortable seats ever made. The fabric is cheap. It seem like the finishes are just so cheap.

I think Nissan and Subaru are the best bang for the buck.

VW's even suck now with windows and sensors failing.

bobman1235

daniel_paul_ wrote: »

I think Nissan and Subaru are the best bang for the buck.

VW's even suck now with windows and sensors failing.

Now? Have VWs ever NOT sucked? At least they used to be really cheap (price-wise) so the fact that they sucked was balanced out by the fact that they only cost a bunch of bananas. Now they're overpriced and all you get for all your money is a bunch of clever advertising and an over-engineered thing that will break down at 20k miles.

PS I love my Subaru. Not the greatest styling but the thing has been rock solid, and I drive a lot.

Jstas

Subarus, in my experience, are stone cold reliable. They actually have the reliability that everybody thinks Honda and Toyota have. Maybe that is why Toyota keeps increasing it's stake in Fuji Heavy Industries, the parent company to Subaru.

sucks2beme

Jstas wrote: »

Dude, those examples are 20 years old or more. How is it even remotely relevant to today?

I stopped buying GM after those episodes. I have had nothing but Ford
stuff here for a while. Not much better. It's relevant because nothing has
changed much. Some products, like the Cobalt, seem to be much better.
Caddies are still a heap of steaming crap.
I just used examples I had pesonal experience with.
I've already covered the Ford problems in other threads.
I'm about to add them to the "avoid list". I am somewhat handy
under the hood, or my vehcles would be eating my lunch in maintenace
costs. Believe me, I'd go American if I could. I have never owned a Japanese
car. But that will change with my next one.

Jstas

:rolleyes:

MikeC78

I always get a good chuckle when I hear people state "I always buy American cars".

sucks2beme

Jstas wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I have no intention of forgetting.
Most all the problems I've had with these brands are
very common. You seem to overlook them. I can't.
Bottom line- A Nissan or Toyota truck will be a lot cheaper
to own in the long run. Unless the price is a lot lower on the GM,
I would go with the winner in quality.

PS, I used to own a couple of VW Rabbits. Pile of crap, too.
Most of what I know about modern VW's tells me to stay away, too.

[Deleted User]

I may step on some toes but... Unions are a huge problem. They had their place and time, but $28/hr for line work... sure it's tedious. I think they have brought this on themselves. Fire them all, cut the crazy pensions, learn from past mistakes, hire people that know it's BORING for a reasonable salary, see what happens?????????? Just my $.02

suprafantx

Talking about quality. I started with Olds (GM), then Mercury (Ford), then Nissan, then Toyota. Guess what I have now: TOYOTA and LEXUS.

dkg999

MikeC78 wrote: »

I always get a good chuckle when I hear people state "I always buy American cars".

That's why I own a Honda Accord. It's one of the few vehicles that to a high degree is American designed, built, and parts made here. I believe that when I checked in 2006 it had a higher US based content and manufacture than my Harley Davidson motorcycle.

With the outsourcing and consolidation in the automotive industry, the differentiation in vehicle design and engineering is getting smaller and smaller all the time. I believe that Yamaha is one of the premier engineering and component design sources for all vehicle manufacturers, with their engineering services producing more revenue than the other parts of their business.

So I wouldn't hesitate to buy a GM vehicle if that's what you want. We didn't let Chrysler go bankrupt, the Fed's didn't want the big brokerage houses going bankrupt, so with GM being a leading symbol of American manufacturing do you think we're going to let them go out of business?

petrym

dkg999 wrote: »

We didn't let Chrysler go bankrupt, the Fed's didn't want the big brokerage houses going bankrupt, so with GM being a leading symbol of American manufacturing do you think we're going to let them go out of business?

That's why the current auto industry business models of GM, Ford, and Chrysler are irrelevant today and overlly burdened by the past. They weren't allowed to fail (same with the huge airline industry) and rebuild/fix from the ground up, there was always an external influx of cash to bail them out.

tonyb

Len wrote: »

I may step on some toes but... Unions are a huge problem. They had their place and time, but $28/hr for line work... sure it's tedious. I think they have brought this on themselves. Fire them all, cut the crazy pensions, learn from past mistakes, hire people that know it's BORING for a reasonable salary, see what happens?????????? Just my $.02

So you think 50-60k is alot of money eh? May I ask what you do for a living? Maybe we can knock off 20 g off your salary and save the consumer in the end.

bobman1235

tonyb wrote: »

So you think 50-60k is alot of money eh? May I ask what you do for a living? Maybe we can knock off 20 g off your salary and save the consumer in the end.

The average individual income for non-college grads in the US is something like $26k. So yes, I'd say for unskilled labor, 50-60k is a lot of money. Twice the average is a lot.

Not everyone can make a great salary just because it's nice to.

Jstas

tonyb wrote: »

So you think 50-60k is alot of money eh? May I ask what you do for a living? Maybe we can knock off 20 g off your salary and save the consumer in the end.

Um, Len is one of Polk's enguhneers.

tonyb

bobman1235 wrote: »

The average individual income for non-college grads in the US is something like $26k. So yes, I'd say for unskilled labor, 50-60k is a lot of money. Twice the average is a lot.

Not everyone can make a great salary just because it's nice to.

Find that hard to believe at 26k, So lets assume your correct,should this person never get a raise? Do you think his salary might double over 20 years of service? Interesting....people's view of "unskilled" labor.

tonyb

Jstas wrote: »

Um, Len is one of Polk's enguhneers.

Yeah,me being a stupid unskilled person missed that.Damn,if I only graduated and got that piece of paper...Kind of like the scarecrow in the wiz.of oz.

Regardless,if he took a cut in pay by 20k,Polk could make their upper end speakers more affordable to everyone.Is this not what he is advocating??

bobman1235

tonyb wrote: »

Find that hard to believe at 26k, So lets assume your correct,should this person never get a raise? Do you think his salary might double over 20 years of service? Interesting....people's view of "unskilled" labor.

I would hope after 20 years of service, you would develop some skills that not anyone could do, and move onto jobs that required your experience and therefore earned your pay. It has nothing to do with college or getting a piece of paper, it has to do with being a valuable commodity. There are many jobs at an assembly plant that literally any able-bodied person in America could do. I'm sorry. There are many jobs there that only a select few could handle, and those people should be paid more.

Think of it from the other side of things. Should someone who is very skilled at their craft, or who does something that only a few other people can do, get paid the same as someone who is much more easily replaceable? Of course not. It's not fair to the person who is skilled. A good plumber, for example, may not have gone to college and gotten a piece of paper, but he's worth the 75 bucks an hour he charges for his skilled labor. A kid who mows my lawn may work hard but nearly anyone can mow my lawn and he's not getting the same rate.

It's harsh, but that's life.

daniel_paul_

tonyb wrote: »

Find that hard to believe at 26k, So lets assume your correct,should this person never get a raise? Do you think his salary might double over 20 years of service? Interesting....people's view of "unskilled" labor.

All my friends and I are engineers in one form or another. All of us make about $45-$60k and that is after 4-6 years of college, work internships and state licensing exams. So I would say $50-60 for a job anyone can do right out of high school is pretty damb good. Some of the jobs may be skilled but many are not.

sucks2beme

Lorthos wrote: »

Hello

I've been looking at buying a Chevy Colorado/GMC canyon, extended cab 4x4, I5. I really like the looks of the pickup and have test drove them a couple of times now. I've never been a big truck guy and have a Dakota right now, its an 02 and am getting some pretty crappy mileage with it lately and its time to trade it off anyway.

I like to shop locally in our one horse town, we have a Dodge, Ford and GM dealer here.

I guess I'm a little scared that GM might go under or declare bankruptcy, or should I not worry about it.....

So, before we finish kicking the dead horse around, you gonna buy
it or what? Support for GM stuff is going to be around awhile, even
if it does file. The problem as I see it that you live too far away from
other brands to make it work. Just go do your homework between the big
three in small trucks. Good luck with your hunt.

tonyb

bobman1235 wrote: »

I would hope after 20 years of service, you would develop some skills that not anyone could do, and move onto jobs that required your experience and therefore earned your pay. It has nothing to do with college or getting a piece of paper, it has to do with being a valuable commodity. There are many jobs at an assembly plant that literally any able-bodied person in America could do. I'm sorry. There are many jobs there that only a select few could handle, and those people should be paid more.

Think of it from the other side of things. Should someone who is very skilled at their craft, or who does something that only a few other people can do, get paid the same as someone who is much more easily replaceable? Of course not. It's not fair to the person who is skilled. A good plumber, for example, may not have gone to college and gotten a piece of paper, but he's worth the 75 bucks an hour he charges for his skilled labor. A kid who mows my lawn may work hard but nearly anyone can mow my lawn and he's not getting the same rate.

It's harsh, but that's life.

Yes and no.......sure their are jobs that any monkey can do and not just in the auto industry.And I agree that they should not be paid the same as a 20 year veteran who may have some skills to justify his worth.These skills must be taught,over time,just like you are taught in school,over time,to be an engineer,lawyer,whatever.The problem with the auto industry is not the pay,but the lifetimers collecting benefits.Unions need to have a tiered plan for pay and experience.Mine does...wasn't always that way but they saw the writing on the wall.Funny,because I liken the auto industries benefits to what universal healthcare would do to us as a nation.Imagine everyone with lifetime benefits and what that would do to our economy.Off Track here a bit,but if the unions can't negotiate with auto companies to the point of salvaging their own industry,they all deserve to go down the tubes then.

Jstas

Hey man, if I had a direct influence on a final product and that final product was a direct result of my designs that I made for that company, I would seem to think that I was a vital and instrumental part in the company's success and entitled to a level of compensation commensurate with the level of my contributions.

tonyb

Just for **** and giggles Bobman......

Me,being a member of a union,in the costruction field,can go to the plumbers union pay a fee upfront,pay my monthly dues and get a plumbers card.Does that mean I am a good plumber? Hell no!! Does it mean I can charge 75 $ an hour? Hell yes!! Is that fair? Hell no! To who? You the consumer,or the experienced plumber? Both.That is why a tiered plan,along with a tiered plan on benefits is needed for unions to survive.When unions and their leaders get too greedy,things like the auto industry happen.

sucks2beme

Gee guys. It's a free country. If the grunts are making more money than you, change careers. Pulling them down isn't going to get you more money.
At some point, the big hand of fate is going to take care of it, anyway.
Those jobs on the line are gonna dry up, and go offshore. Or drop
pay and bennies like a rock.
Any more, if an engineer makes over $40k, some management goon is
replacing him with a guy from India. This is why real wages for
engineering has dropped to technician levels.
Dropping pay still isn't gonna fix quality. Period. If they take it to
Mexico and pay $10 a day, the stuff is cheaper. Not better.

tonyb

Jstas wrote: »

Hey man, if I had a direct influence on a final product and that final product was a direct result of my designs that I made for that company, I would seem to think that I was a vital and instrumental part in the company's success and entitled to a level of compensation commensurate with the level of my contributions.

Not necessarily so,after all,they are paying you to come up with those designs in the first place.Anything you design while being in their employ becomes their property.Sure,you solidify your worth,maybe get a subscription to the jelly of the month club at christmas,but thats all they owe you.A decent company would throw a big fat bonus at you,but those companies are getting harder to come by.

tonyb

Come on guys,look around.Is it not safe to say the majority of the working class did not graduate college? And if so,then we need jobs that can be taught to these people,over time,to afford a certain standard of living.Is that so wrong?