Whole-house audio system?

candyliquor35m

I want whatever they have in the White House.

Serendipity

candyliquor35m wrote: »

I want whatever they have in the White House.

It's probably a Crestron system

amulford

You have no idea how much gear you can get for "free" these days.

Oh yes, I do.

I thought you were serious, obviously you aren't. Sorry I don't have what you want to hear...

That's enough for me...

Serendipity

amulford wrote: »

Oh yes, I do.

I thought you were serious, obviously you aren't. Sorry I don't have what you want to hear...

That's enough for me...

Well, I'm being serious. You can pick up a used Denon or Onkyo multi-room receiver for very little $$, that would be a starting point for a whole house system. 3 zones is enough for 4-6 rooms, in this kind of setup I'd have to live with listening to the same source in more than one room, but every grouping of 2 rooms can listen to a different source.

I'm pretty sure when you were 18 or so you didn't have a $10k budget either...

Serendipity

Since this stuff is so expensive, it looks like I'll have to stick with the volume control method and use a RF remote for source switching. I like the idea of using a typical receiver with 3-zone capability, since the receiver can power one zone (2 pairs in series) and then you'll need amp(s) for the other zones.

But man, why do they make this stuff so expensive, it's almost as if they want to make it exclusive or something like that... I bet the markup on Niles/Crestron/Russound products is huge!

Argh

disneyjoe7

It's a niche market for sure.

Serendipity

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

It's a niche market for sure.

But why? This stuff's been around for years.

Anyways, I guess I'm going with an AVR + speaker switch and amp(s) because the commercial systems are too expensive. Do you think this is a good idea or should I just "do it right the first time?"

disneyjoe7

Well to even do it to start with, given wire $100, control $200, speakers $175, wall plates and jacks $25 you looking at $500 a zone. And you did the labor. Add source then everything else, you're adding $$ to it. So when you think about it say minimum you're into it for $5k you have entered the niche market. How many homes have $5k to $10k to spend on an whole house audio and just how many homes could get that out of the house.

Ok I did it now I getting sick thinking about it.

Serendipity

Well, are you saying that it is a bad investment then? I don't want to install something in my parents' house that barely holds its value when its time to sell the house.

disneyjoe7

No it depends on the house and the area.

It's hard to sell or get your money out of it selling a fine aged steak in McDonald's.

Serendipity

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

No it depends on the house and the area.

Well, I'm in a mostly "urban" area with small, < 1200 sq. ft houses and even smaller apartments.

disneyjoe7

It's your call.

unc2701

You can do it cheaper than you'd think, BUT you're gonna have to learn how to make all this stuff work. Older AMX & crestron gear is pretty cheap and does mostly the same stuff as the newer products, but you gotta learn their language. B&K CT series 6 zone systems can be had for under $1000 on ebay (plus ~$100 each for keypads) ...but it can be awhile for them to show up on ebay, though.

If you're good w/ PHP and html you could totally do a whole house system with nothing but a extron crosspoint ($200-$300), Nokia 770 ($100) and any multichannel amp. I've put a Slax module together that does most the gruntwork there and can control my B&K system from the web.

Comes down to how good you are at learning each control protocol & how creative you are.

Serendipity

unc2701 wrote: »

You can do it cheaper than you'd think, BUT you're gonna have to learn how to make all this stuff work. Older AMX & crestron gear is pretty cheap and does mostly the same stuff as the newer products, but you gotta learn their language. B&K CT series 6 zone systems can be had for under $1000 on ebay (plus ~$100 each for keypads) ...but it can be awhile for them to show up on ebay, though.

If you're good w/ PHP and html you could totally do a whole house system with nothing but a extron crosspoint ($200-$300), Nokia 770 ($100) and any multichannel amp. I've put a Slax module together that does most the gruntwork there and can control my B&K system from the web.

Comes down to how good you are at learning each control protocol & how creative you are.

I'm interested! We did something like this in my EE lab class last semester.

mantis

appadv wrote: »

I'm interested! We did something like this in my EE lab class last semester.

I got a good idea for yeah. Why not start small and build your way up. Prewire the entire house and then build the system.

Dan

Serendipity

mantis wrote: »

I got a good idea for yeah. Why not start small and build your way up. Prewire the entire house and then build the system.

Dan

I'm going to start small (with a few zones), and then expand the system. I think I'm going to go with used gear online and learn the programming myself or just do it the conventional way (multi-zone receiver, speaker selectors, and in-wall volume controls) and avoid the hassle of understanding how Crestron/AMX works.

On another note, I understand that this stuff is expensive but I believe that it can be done for much less $$$. Just like the alarm project, I thought it was impossible to install a system for under $1k but I was able to get that done within a budget.

Serendipity

I have a few questions for you guys:

What kind of inwall speaker wire do you guys recommend? Keep in mind this is going to be on a tight budget. But I'm still looking for decent wire though. I'll also need some kind of wire to relay IR commands back to the equipment rack so that channel changing/transport controls/source selection can be done from a remote control in any room.

Also, what do you guys think of this amp for multi-room use? Apparently it can drive two pairs of speakers (4 speakers) so that's enough for two rooms: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=245-515&CFID=4643370&CFTOKEN=78262421

Last, I can wire up many pairs of speakers in a series/parallel combination, but I was wondering if that would degrade the sound quality? If so, would a speaker switch be better?

Face

How long do you plan on living there? How much time do you spend there while you're going to school? Is it really worth it?

Serendipity

Face wrote: »

How long do you plan on living there? How much time do you spend there while you're going to school? Is it really worth it?

Lived there for a long time. I only go home when I'm on break/vacation. Right now I'm in school.

Edit: I'd like to move to Boston though for an engineering internship, so I won't be there after I finish college.

Is it worth it? Do you need a Corvette or could you get by with a Chevy Aveo?

Face

If I'd like to continue racing in the Corvette Challenge Points Series, I kind of need a Corvette.

Serendipity

Well, I think it's worth it to have a distributed audio system....

Just like how you "need a Corvette".

disneyjoe7

I think there's something about doing it yourself and learning from your mistakes. I also think there's something special of someone who will tackle something he or she never touch it before.

So I think you need to figure out just what like to do, line out what parts you wish to use. Then others can say no you can't use this with that or so on.


Steve

Serendipity

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I think there's something about doing it yourself and learning from your mistakes. I also think there's something special of someone who will tackle something he or she never touch it before.

So I think you need to figure out just what like to do, line out what parts you wish to use. Then others can say no you can't use this with that or so on.


Steve

Sure, thanks! The parts I am going to use will be something like the following:

Receiver - Onkyo TX-SR702 (will most likely go with a used one)
Amp(s) - http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=245-515
Speaker selector - http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-606
Speakers - not sure yet, I like the Polks but may have to consider these: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-036
Sources - Onkyo DV-CP500, HP Media Center PC, and a Samsung XM Tuner

I'm not sure which volume controls I should go with nor which IR repeaters I should use, can you advise me on a good IR repeater system?

Also, what is your opinion on the "budget" amp from Parts Express?

Thanks!

disneyjoe7

Ok what you're trying to do is nothing like you started with, but a nice start to build from in the future if needed.

The cheapest method would be a system which uses impedance volume control so the amp never sees bad low resistance load.

These are $75 but have no IR control.

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=15230&i=190VCS1HRW&tp=8195

These which would do an auto off nice since you don't turn ever room on at once. But add $ 130* but still no IR control.

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=15230&i=190MVC1HRW&tp=8195


These are the sweetest they do it all IR repeating / Auto off... But come out the priciest of them all $200*
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=15230&i=190MVC1HIW&tp=8195

*But those need something to make them work

This would handle 2 of the IR volume controls. $90

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=194750&i=190MSU250&tp=8228

This would handle 4 IR volume controls. $130

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=194750&i=190MSU480&tp=8228

The auto off volume controls will not work without the IR hub, I found out the hard way myself.

I also think you will need another power supply for the hub to tell when the turner / amp is on allowing speaker volume controls to be turn on. If not the volume control will just forward the IR code. Price $20

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=194750&i=19012VUNIV&tp=8228

Plus wiring and all, but I don't think you will need the speaker selector box you listed above as the volume controls them self handle the impedance.

Sami

appadv, I would suggest trying to find a few HK PA2000's. They are going to sound better than cheap pro gear. Not sure how good these are, nor will they drive 2 pairs of speakers with ease: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=302-601

Cheaper alternative to the expensive Niles gear: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-560

With IR: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=182-864

With auto on/off: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=302-252

disneyjoe7

Yes the HK PA2000 amp works well for a whole house amp as that's what is powering mine.

Serendipity

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Plus wiring and all, but I don't think you will need the speaker selector box you listed above as the volume controls them self handle the impedance.

How does this work - Is it just adding resistance so that you can add more pairs of speakers?

If so, wouldn't there always be unnecessary resistance (wasting power) even though you only have one zone playing? For example, if I'm having a party and only the living room is playing, wouldn't the other volume controls steal power from the system?

Or am I totally wrong on this? Because usually most speaker selectors give the loudest sound when only one zone is selected; if you select all the zones the volume will be lower in every zone whether or not the individual room volume controls are turned up...wasting power.

amulford

Because usually most speaker selectors give the loudest sound when only one zone is selected; if you select all the zones the volume will be lower in every zone whether or not the individual room volume controls are turned up...wasting power.

That's right. If you try to drive multiple speakers off of one amp channel, the power will be divided among the loads. Alot of the time people wire things up in parallel, which is what a speaker selector does, and is why you may want impedance matching.

The better way to do it, IMO, is to drive each pair independently. Then you don't have to worry about power loss and impedance, but YMMV.

disneyjoe7

amulford wrote: »

The better way to do it, IMO, is to drive each pair independently. Then you don't have to worry about power loss and impedance, but YMMV.

Anthony, I agree.... But (Monkey) that's the step above his equipment and what he what's to spend. Having the wiring and setup done like above have I steered him appadv wrong. It doesn't stop him from upgrading something later right?

The trouble between these levels I see is...


Volume controls like this will only work with
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=274350&i=190SOLOIR&tp=214


This Receiver / amp / processor
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=10420&i=190ZR4630&tp=179



Where this works the old way, but not the new.
http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=15230&i=190MVC1HIW&tp=8195

Where going from one to the other it's almost a complete equipment change out, minus perhaps the wiring and speakers.

BTW didn't you yourself do a system in your house as the latter?

Sami

Get one source & preamp, multiple amps (make sure they have outputs as well as inputs so you can chain them), and volume control for every room.

I have not confirmed with my PA2000 if it passes the input signal thru its output, but I would imagine that's what it is for. Has anyone tried it?