Is Less Bass Better Bass?

Early B.

On several occasions I've upgraded my speaker cables, interconnects and power cords, and without fail I usually get slightly less bass; rarely do I get more bass from upgrading. I've found this to be true, as well, when upgrading amplifiers. Sure, the character of the bass becomes more refined and tonally correct, but sometines I miss the gut-wrenching thunderous one-note bass that I've heard in my system from lesser components.

I suppose that if I didn't tweak my system so much it wouldn't be a problem, huh?

PolkThug

Welcome to good bass, now crank the level up!

Gaara

This is one of those things that I always think of when people try and push subs in 2ch systems. Yeah you get more bass, yeah it goes deeper, but is it really better? I just took my SVS out of my 2ch rig for good. The bass went deep and hit hard but it was masking the tonal quality, plus I was missing lots of low level detail.

SolidSqual

I whole heartedly disagree. Except for the times when I remove or add subwoofers, every upgrade I have made in my system has increased the quantity and quality of bass in my system.

McLoki

That was one of the biggest differences I noticed when I switched from blue jeans cable to signal cable and then to Ben's silver interconnects.

The blue jeans cable has very bloated bass, the signals sound much less bassy (if thats a word) but also less grainy. Bens cables get more clear yet (but I did not notice a big change in the bass when I switched)

Would be fine for a home theater, but BJC would not be my recommended cables in a 2 channel system for that reason alone.

Michael

SlowcarIX

when bass goes deep, it causes EVERYTHING to resonate and make noise...walls, doors, dlp screen, ceiling, a stack of CD cases and even my rice cooker sitting on the kitchen counter.

do you have audyssey? it helps a lot to minimise sound/room interactions and gives you the best possible listening enviroment.

SolidSqual

SlowcarIX wrote: »

when bass goes deep, it causes EVERYTHING to resonate and make noise...walls, doors, dlp screen, ceiling, a stack of CD cases and even my rice cooker sitting on the kitchen counter.

do you have audyssey? it helps a lot to minimise sound/room interactions and gives you the best possible listening enviroment.

Audyssey is a gimmick. Deep bass can be had without resonance and other residual artifacts by implementing the right room treatments and isolation components.

SlowcarIX

SolidSqual wrote: »

Audyssey is a gimmick. Deep bass can be had without resonance and other residual artifacts by implementing the right room treatments and isolation components.

have you tried it

deep bass

Deep bass can be had

its the only way!

Ern Dog

I went to a friends house to hear his rig recently and he's got the boomy one note bass thing going and he plays the rig REALLY loud. I had to admit that I liked the Powerful way that I could feel the music in my body. For rock music it was F'in Awesome. It had the live performance feel/sound to it.

I got home and listened to my rig and the bass seemed anemic in comparison, although it was clean and tight. I wanted to recreate the experience, so I adjusted my sub crossover from 40 hz to 80 hz and increased the gain and removed the port plugs on my Dynaudio's. WOW, what an improvement. I'm running my sub a little hot right now just to get my fill of Mega Bass. Even my neighbors noticed the improvement. For the first time, they knocked on my door and asked me to turn the music down. :eek:

Early B.

Ern Dog wrote: »

I got home and listened to my rig and the bass seemed anemic in comparison, although it was clean and tight. I wanted to recreate the experience, so I adjusted my sub crossover from 40 hz to 80 hz and increased the gain and removed the port plugs on my Dynaudio's. WOW, what an improvement.

I think I'll try adjusting the crossover to get a little more bass boom when I wanna rock out. It just might do the trick.

mmadden28

Ern Dog wrote: »

... Even my neighbors noticed the improvement. For the first time, they knocked on my door and asked me to turn the music down. :eek:

I want that! My neighbor's houses are maybe 500' away on either side - I want my bass to be enough for them to notice. :cool: Of course if that were the case, I would probably have to invest in some joint compound.

danger boy

this is a slightly different take on the bass or lack of bass as you go up the audio ladder.

I have SDA 2B's.. and the bass is nearly to much. I have the bass and treble set to bypass... so I know it's not tweaked out or anything. but on some songs, the bass is just right and punchy when needed. On other times the bass it to much.

1. I think some songs just are over bloated with bass..

2. the SDA 2B's dig deep, but are unreal for their size how much bass they bring with them. I mean even my former SRS's would never have this bass with the same music, even using the same amp, but different pre amp.

the cool thing is if is you have plenty of bass and it's clean and punchy and not boomy.. you can also decrease the bass response by moving the sub or taking down the bass knob a click or two.

I find it much easier to decrease the amount of bass than it is to add bass and have it sound good. It takes a lot of tweaking to make it sound good it seems.

Face

I've always thought the 2B's were very well balanced. They do dig deep for what they are, but a little more impact down low would be nice.

You should feel the impact from my Tannoy's with only 1 watt of juice, you'd swear there's a sub somewhere.

Gaara

SolidSqual wrote: »

Audyssey is a gimmick. Deep bass can be had without resonance and other residual artifacts by implementing the right room treatments and isolation components.

I concur, albiet I would say more of a bandaid then a gimmick. EQ is good for reducing peaks but thats about it. It does nothing for issues like ringing and slap echo, is less effective when trying to eq more than one area, and is pretty ineffective when treating nulls.

Treating your room properly will solve all of these problems.

mantis

Over the years most people got used to hearing a recreation incorrectly. Movie watching in some cases is just terrible. I have seen it go so many times. this also applies to rear effects channels.

Most people want there sub to shake the house and the rears to melt there face. Thats ok if you want that, most systems can do that. But most of the time, thats not how it was recorded.

The goal is to recreate the orignal sound the best you possibly can. If you use a SPL and set everything to correct levels, you will be closer to that goal. If you test your room and fix it's problems , you will be closer to that goal.

Room eq systems work sometimes very well, and others just flat out suck. Some systems I perfer to do it the old way.

Bottom line is this, what do you want out of your system? Do you want to impress your friends with MANLY or do you want the best possible experience that recreates the orignal? Thats up to you man.

Early B.

mantis wrote: »

Bottom line is this, what do you want out of your system? Do you want to impress your friends with MANLY or do you want the best possible experience that recreates the orignal? Thats up to you man.

I ain't gonna lie -- sometimes I want more (or less) than the original has to offer. Even live concerts should be tweakable!;)

Many of us do this with HT -- we'll add more bass to the soundtrack, or we'll increase the volume on our center channel or surrounds more than the original soundtrack. Even listening at different levels is a way of adjusting the sound from the original. Tweaking the sound is something you can't do in a movie theater.

If audiophiles were being truthful, they don't really want the highest level of fidelity from their systems. They want what sounds good, and that's not always the same as high fidelity.


OK, back to bass -- I think there's a fallacy in the audio world about dialing in the bass and leaving it there for every song and for every type of music. If bass serves as the foundation for music, it should be readily adjustable just like the volume on a remote. A remote controlled bass management system -- oh yeah!!:cool:

TNRabbit

The key here is that lower quality audio, which many of us grew up with, is compressed and lacks dynamic range. One of the ways the novice tries to compensate for that in a crappy system is to increase the bass in the 60-100 hz region, giving you that signature "thump".

When you begin to appreciate true hi-fi and experience increased dynamic range & extended "true" low bass (below 40 hz), this is always at the expense of the artificial thump you were used to. However, a flat response digging deep into the lower limit of human hearing and even lower into the "feel" level, is much more realistic and satisfying.

Early B.

TNRabbit wrote: »

The key here is that lower quality audio, which many of us grew up with, is compressed and lacks dynamic range. One of the ways the novice tries to compensate for that in a crappy system is to increase the bass in the 60-100 hz region, giving you that signature "thump".

When you begin to appreciate true hi-fi and experience increased dynamic range & extended "true" low bass (below 40 hz), this is always at the expense of the artificial thump you were used to. However, a flat response digging deep into the lower limit of human hearing and even lower into the "feel" level, is much more realistic and satisfying.

That's the whole point of this discussion -- sometimes you wanna hear the artificial thumps. Flat responses don't always provide the best sound. If you design a speaker with a totally flat response, guess what -- it'll sound flat. If flat floats your boat, then row, row, row...

kuntasensei

Gaara wrote: »

I concur, albiet I would say more of a bandaid then a gimmick. EQ is good for reducing peaks but thats about it. It does nothing for issues like ringing and slap echo, is less effective when trying to eq more than one area, and is pretty ineffective when treating nulls.

Treating your room properly will solve all of these problems.

No one should expect Audyssey to be a magic bullet, nor do they advertise it as such. If your room has acoustic issues, no amount of room correction can fix that. It might mitigate it to an extent... but garbage in, garbage out.

However, I've found that in my room in which I've already dealt with as many of the acoustic problems I could beforehand, Audyssey makes a significant improvement, especially with bass. My SVS 20-39CS+ has always given me a sound I enjoy... but now that sucker SINGS. It takes on a totally different (and better) tone with music post-Audyssey, while still retaining the deep gut-wrenching bass I want for movies.

The product performs as advertised. You just can't do it in an acoustically flawed room and expect miracles. Room treatment is a must. Room treatment + Audyssey = one step further, in my opinion.

SlowcarIX

Early B. wrote: »

That's the whole point of this discussion -- sometimes you wanna hear the artificial thumps. Flat responses don't always provide the best sound. If you design a speaker with a totally flat response, guess what -- it'll sound flat. If flat floats your boat, then row, row, row...

this is what audyssey did in my listening area...it does not sound flat at all or overpowering - it makes it sounds/feels like you are at the scene of the action :eek::D

Gaara

Early B. wrote: »

I ain't gonna lie -- sometimes I want more (or less) than the original has to offer. Even live concerts should be tweakable!;)

OK, back to bass -- I think there's a fallacy in the audio world about dialing in the bass and leaving it there for every song and for every type of music. If bass serves as the foundation for music, it should be readily adjustable just like the volume on a remote. A remote controlled bass management system -- oh yeah!!:cool:

Early, many HT pres do this, my B&K for example will allow you to adjust the sub on the fly and only does so temporarily. That way if you are watching a concert dvd and want more bass you can turn it up 2-3db, and the next movie you watch it is set to normal again. For 2ch you could get some stepped attenuators, they would be cheap and not adversely affect sound.

kuntasensei wrote: »

No one should expect Audyssey to be a magic bullet, nor do they advertise it as such. If your room has acoustic issues, no amount of room correction can fix that. It might mitigate it to an extent... but garbage in, garbage out.

The product performs as advertised. You just can't do it in an acoustically flawed room and expect miracles. Room treatment is a must. Room treatment + Audyssey = one step further, in my opinion.

My issue with Audysesy is that they do indeed advertise it as a magic bullet. Google "Audyssey", the first thing that comes up is "Audyssey corrects sound distortion caused by room acoustics, in every seat, automatically.". Sure sounds like a magic bullet to me.

I do agree that EQ has its place, and for many can make very large improvements. The bandaid comment referred to eq vs treatments. Both try and take care of issues caused by sound reflections. Room treatments do so by absorbing the sound, EQ does so by altering the original signal. With EQ the signal has been altered to try to prevent reflection issues, now you are not listening to what was originally recorded, IMO a big issue.

P.S. This is for you Slow, 16x14x8 room (near cube) w/no Eq or sub...just lots of bass traps.

toddco

Ya my SMS 1, I lost alot of bummy base and its not over powering any more but its alot smoother and accurate. I can always unplug and go back to the old sound if i want.

Hawkeye

I don't care for big, huge in your face bass. When I was younger and had Cerwin-Vega speakers and a Sansui reciever I bought in Japan when in the Navy, I loved it. Nothing like putting some Jefferson Airplane/Starship, Ted Nugent or Blue Oyster Cult on and making my ears bleed and have my heart skip a beat every now and then!

I still enjoy the old rockers but my taste in music has evolved and can appreciate more types of music now. I'm somewhat the purist when it comes to listening to music. I don't want any thing like EQ or room correction software to change what the artist laid down. If the bass is thin, they must have wanted it that way. If it is fat and bloated, OK also. It is enjoyable to me to hear a guy playing an upright bass and actually hear the different notes he is actually playing instead of a smear of boom.

Accuracy is more important to me and I think it is an acquired taste. I have a friend who loves bass, almost to the point where the mids are almost non existant. That floats his boat. Not really my cup of tea but when he puts on some Tool or Disturbed, it will make me take back 30 years to my CW's!!

Gordon

demaples

SlowcarIX wrote: »

when bass goes deep, it causes EVERYTHING to resonate and make noise...walls, doors, dlp screen, ceiling, a stack of CD cases and even my rice cooker sitting on the kitchen counter.

do you have audyssey? it helps a lot to minimise sound/room interactions and gives you the best possible listening enviroment.

LOL, had mine cranked watching an action flic a couple of weeks ago and the kitchen ceiling light panels decided to fall to the floor..

mantis

Early B. wrote: »

I ain't gonna lie -- sometimes I want more (or less) than the original has to offer. Even live concerts should be tweakable!;)

Many of us do this with HT -- we'll add more bass to the soundtrack, or we'll increase the volume on our center channel or surrounds more than the original soundtrack. Even listening at different levels is a way of adjusting the sound from the original. Tweaking the sound is something you can't do in a movie theater.

If audiophiles were being truthful, they don't really want the highest level of fidelity from their systems. They want what sounds good, and that's not always the same as high fidelity.


OK, back to bass -- I think there's a fallacy in the audio world about dialing in the bass and leaving it there for every song and for every type of music. If bass serves as the foundation for music, it should be readily adjustable just like the volume on a remote. A remote controlled bass management system -- oh yeah!!:cool:

Agreed, It all comes down to what your looking for out of your system. Teaking if fun and if you find setting it up out of "Correct" is ok well hell it's ok.

SlowcarIX

Gaara wrote: »

P.S. This is for you Slow, 16x14x8 room (near cube) w/no Eq or sub...just lots of bass traps.

what is the speaker used?

the sms-1 bass response plot was for a 20x20x8...yes a square room with just audyssey.

like what kuntasensei mentioned earlier, if i use audyssey + acoustic treatment, i think tabletop flatness bass response can be achieved.

SlowcarIX

demaples wrote: »

LOL, had mine cranked watching an action flic a couple of weeks ago and the kitchen ceiling light panels decided to fall to the floor..

:eek:

some of these should help the light to stay on



i got a wall clock that needs to be taken off the wall b4 movie starts, and put back after...:D

MKZ

Nice discussion.

Gaara

SlowcarIX wrote: »

what is the speaker used?

the sms-1 bass response plot was for a 20x20x8...yes a square room with just audyssey.

like what kuntasensei mentioned earlier, if i use audyssey + acoustic treatment, i think tabletop flatness bass response can be achieved.

The speakers are Gallo Ref 3.1s, they are pretty strong down to about 22hz with usable output below 20hz.

Any eq should be able to give you ruler flat response, but there is more to it than that. IMO the improvements in the soundstage and imaging I got from a treated room outweigh the improvement brought by flatter bass. EQs just can't fix the issues caused by long decay times. I agree that EQ + treatments would be the best, as treatments are relatively ineffective below ~50hz or so in most cases.

Ern Dog

There is something about bass that feeds me like nothing else can. This is my favorite part of the whole sound spectrum. It really stirs me up and excites me. I also have some instruments that I play which all fit into the lower frequency range: congas, djembe and didgeridoo. To me bass/drums are grounding and tap into ancient traditions and may be one of the first musical instruments.