Power cord

rlw

Yes, you are hampered by everything else in the chain: remember, I think you're wasting money to upgrade any cables, whether speaker, IC, or power, until you have dedicated circuits.

Outlets can certainly make a difference: think in terms of good contact area, no slippage, etc - maximizing the transfer of electrons.

As far as direct soldering, that's great, until your house burns down, and the inspector determines that your outlets weren't wired to code, and you get to buy a new house out of pocket.

schumach

I would agree with the outlet and dedicated circuit. I have put in a 20amp circuit with 10-gauge wire to an insulated outlet (hospital grade). That alone, got rid of any noises emitted from appliances.

I believe it was rlw that mentioned that he has not used a DIY power cord that has made a difference. At some point these high-end power cords that are made were DIY power cords. Maybe not published, but somebody made them for others to test and decided they were good enough to market. Just a thought.

HBombToo

OK... I'll jump in here and then get slammed.

Clean power is very important IMO but I see another marketing ploy here.

The "Plug and Wire" on the component was selected by the manufacturer to ensure it could handle the required load as per code. If the wire could not handle the load then there would be a fire and some really large insurance claims would be filed as a result of negligence.

Providing clean power on dedicated lines is a great idea because it provides dedicated breakers for protecting the electronics from lightning but I fail to understand how it can provide sonic benifits.

I have been deploying very expensive electronics for over 15 years now and we run the standard 12 guage electrical without any problems. If I proposed to the Senior staff that we should engineer our systems with esoteric products that the benefits could never be quantified... I would be LAUGHED out of the presentation.

If your power provider has problems or the wiring in your dwelling is bad then those are the issues that should be addressed. If so then please "Call a registered Electrician", for your own safety.

HBomb

madmax

At the minimum you loose the refrigerator noises (sometimes) and your lights stop flashing. One thing that amazes me is playing with X10 devices. They send their signal over the power lines. Often times they don't work if you get on another circuit. Whay does going through a breaker break this transmission from one circuit to another? They are all originating from the same input, right?
madmax

HBombToo

Originally posted by madmax001
At the minimum you loose the refrigerator noises (sometimes) and your lights stop flashing.
madmax

Agreed if there is a bad ground or there are too many outlets on the run this will cause problems.

QUOTE]
One thing that amazes me is playing with X10 devices. They send their signal over the power lines. Often times they don't work if you get on another circuit. Whay does going through a breaker break this transmission from one circuit to another? They are all originating from the same input, right?
[/B][/QUOTE]

This is a very interesting subject and now your getting into actual transmission line theory. Because the messaging is high data rate TTL, there are limits on the length of the run and reflections that must be considered. Without getting into a lot of messy uwave engineering lets just say that the reflections are 180 degrees out from the input and whatever is remaining from the incident signal after line losses the reflected energy must be subtracted out. After long line losses and reflected energies are accounted for the signal typically has less energy than the digital receiver can decode and hence the problem.

For every outlet and every breaker there are very small changes in impedance which cause these reflections. This is an issue for higher frequency messageing but for a 60hz power transfer it is almost unmeasurable unless there is a serious issue.

Hope this helps

HBomb

madmax

I guess there are the two phases as well. I just thought of that. I wonder if under one phase you put all your audio circuits and under the other phase you put the other household items if there would be any difference?
madmax

HBombToo

You would not want a large imbalance across the 2 phases. It would be more important to ensure a good balance across the 2.

I forgot to add in the 2 phases regarding the x10 box. This will definetly break the path if that was where the signal path was. I was thinking that the messaging is on the ground and not the power side... if I had to engineer it I would rather use the ground for the signal path but I don't own any of these devices and can't say. What if you connected the Box with an extension cord without the gound? would you break the signal path or does it still work??

I'm very curious about this.

HBomb

madmax

Many of the modules do not have a grounded input. Just the two blades. Maybe the ground would be too massive for the transmission?
madmax

X10 stuff is pretty cool. Check out www.x10.com
They have just about everything.

HBombToo

Originally posted by madmax001

X10 stuff is pretty cool. Check out www.x10.com
They have just about everything.

What equipment do you have that connects over the house wiring?

Thanks
HBomb

madmax

Recently I bought quite a few in wall outlets and a few RF video cameras. So far I have only played with the stuff but it is pretty cool. They have an rf remote which transmits to a receiver which plugs in the wall. Also, there are several programs out there which uses an rs-232 input device that allows you to set up macro's. So pretty much you could sit down on the couch, hit one button on the remote and it will turn on all the equipment through an IR device (have not got that yet), set all the lights, close the drapes, set your house alarm, water your dog or start the popcorn popper, whatever you can come up with. With little motion detectors, you could have someone walk up the front steps and cause the front lights to come up, volume on the stereo go down and turn on the camera and show it on your video screen. Imagination is about the only limit. As I say, I am still in the playing stage but it definately has a big potential.
madmax

brettw22

Originally posted by madmax001
Imagination is about the only limit.

And the almighty Franklins.....................

polkatese

amen to that, Brett.....thank you all for the great feedbacks, I learned a lot on this topic and will ponder some more, dedicated outlet seems to be the starting point, followed by a MC 3600 /5000 power conditioner, and then moving into the gears' power cords....by then, who knows, I might be able to afford thiel et. al. ...;)

madmax

Originally posted by brettw22


And the almighty Franklins.....................

You would be surprised how few!
madmax

rlw

Originally posted by HBombToo
OK... I'll jump in here and then get slammed.

Clean power is very important IMO but I see another marketing ploy here.

Only too happy to oblige - but remember, it's all in fun

While you might "see" something, I follow the rule that audio is about trusting your ears. My ears tell me that I hear enough of a difference with power cords to justify the investment.

The "Plug and Wire" on the component was selected by the manufacturer to ensure it could handle the required load as per code. If the wire could not handle the load then there would be a fire and some really large insurance claims would be filed as a result of negligence.

The power cord, and everything else about the component, was also picked b/c of a product price-point. That price point typically does not include a good power cord.

Providing clean power on dedicated lines is a great idea because it provides dedicated breakers for protecting the electronics from lightning but I fail to understand how it can provide sonic benifits.

Breakers do NOT provide protection from lightning. A tripped breaker still has 1 phase connected, which is all it takes: lightning will travel through that 1 phase, as it seeks the shortest path to ground. To guarantee the safety of your gear in a lightning storm, YOU MUST UNPLUG IT FROM THE WALL [or find another way to disconnect both phases and the ground].

Dedicated circuits provide sonic benefits by providing enough current with a lower noise floor.

I have been deploying very expensive electronics for over 15 years now and we run the standard 12 guage electrical without any problems. If I proposed to the Senior staff that we should engineer our systems with esoteric products that the benefits could never be quantified... I would be LAUGHED out of the presentation.

So what does this have to do with audio, and improving the sound of a system? I've been programming computers for 20 years now, and I still run the standard power cords on PC's; minis and mainframes do get special power cords to meet current capacity demands. This has nothing to do with audio either.

As far as quantifiable results: I can hear the difference. That's the only quantifiable result that matters when I sit down and listen to the music.

If your power provider has problems or the wiring in your dwelling is bad then those are the issues that should be addressed. If so then please "Call a registered Electrician", for your own safety.

HBomb

Now that makes sense. Still has nothing to do with audio, though.

goingganzo

i have a surge protector/power condishoner and that is good enough for me

weavercr

Troy those are the expensive ones. Mine cost 19 cents at Home Depot. I however have a dedicate power line run for the HT and 2CH rig. 12 gage.

RLW 115 volt power is one phase power. 1 hot and 1 netural. If the breaker trips the netural / ground is still connected to the equipment. You are correct that breakers wont protect from lightning but it not because of the neutral wire it the fact that the breakers are too slow in reacting to the lightning transient.

rlw

Originally posted by weavercr
Troy those are the expensive ones. Mine cost 19 cents at Home Depot. I however have a dedicate power line run for the HT and 2CH rig. 12 gage.

RLW 115 volt power is one phase power. 1 hot and 1 netural. If the breaker trips the netural / ground is still connected to the equipment. You are correct that breakers wont protect from lightning but it not because of the neutral wire it the fact that the breakers are too slow in reacting to the lightning transient.

Hey, whaddya want for 2AM?

You're correct - 115 is single phase, but each leg can be balanced wrt load.

I do take issue with the "speed" of the breaker. If the "neutral" side is still connected to ground, that's a viable path for the lighting to seek ground - and that can be right through your equipment.

polkatese

Another great looking power cord from AQ nrg-2 for $119...looks great, but, can I tell the difference?

madmax

I find the tube stuff almost always presents a difference but the SS stuff seems to be masked somehow.
madmax

polkatese

madmax,
I've been reading a lot about power cords, and actually quite surprise that there are so many brands out there....there is a site that allows folks to demo the cords at home for 2 weeks. Anywhoo, since I am not into tubes (yet), if you have to take a quantifiable swag on the degree of "sonic quality improvement" of SS gears, by replacing its power cord, given a relatively brand new house (2 years old with electrical up to code from respectable builder, and living in a state that has codes for everything; currently no humming noise from emf/rf at all), what would be your take? thanks.....


"in pursuit of sonic excellence without breaking the bank....."

gidrah

The ultimate in cheap upgrades would be to go to a computer show (expo, flea market type thing) and pick up some used monitor power cables. These are usually pretty thick and have the ferrite rings.

I've already talked to my pseudo-electrician about running dedicated circuits in what will be the sound-room in my new house. I'll buy the materials and let her put them in.

polkatese

Gidrah,
that would be too easy...I've got several of those cables, I think....but isn't it serves a different purpose? at least, just by reading the spec on those oem audiophile power cords, or perhaps it says the same yada yada that the monitor manufacturers never bother to brag about??? thanks and let's see. magic eight ball says you are on your third coronas tonight..right? happy new year, bud!

gidrah

Originally posted by polkatese
Gidrah,
magic eight ball says you are on your third coronas tonight..right? happy new year, bud!

The magic eight ball underestimates my needs. I drank 3 beers while the ball was in flight.

Sure, it may not be the best solution, but considering the thickness, possible shielding, & ferrite blocks to stop RFI, I wish I would've thought of this sooner.

At $2-$3 a pop you won't get the audiophile magi doing a magic dance or counting the oxygen purity, but it seems like a viable alternative.


Damn I'm happy. This has the potential to be one of my best replies yet. I'm sure somebody that knows more will come along and shoot me down, but I've gotta just rave un2 for the moment.

rlw

Originally posted by gidrah


The magic eight ball underestimates my needs. I drank 3 beers while the ball was in flight.

Sure, it may not be the best solution, but considering the thickness, possible shielding, & ferrite blocks to stop RFI, I wish I would've thought of this sooner.

At $2-$3 a pop you won't get the audiophile magi doing a magic dance or counting the oxygen purity, but it seems like a viable alternative.


Damn I'm happy. This has the potential to be one of my best replies yet. I'm sure somebody that knows more will come along and shoot me down, but I've gotta just rave un2 for the moment.

I'm not sure how anybody can shoot you down - what you're suggesting is the soul of this hobby, playing around with new ideas to get better sound.

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out for you.

mantis

the soul of this hobby.........better sound.......I love it.Playing around with new Ideas is what I live for.When we get in the Monstercable replacement powercords,I'll be sure to buy first.Hell if it yields better sounds,I'm totally game.If it does nothing,they will go back......we will see......I mean hear.Stay tuned!!!!!!

madmax

Sorry I didn't get back sooner. I'd say if you could try the cord for 2 weeks it would be worth a try. Make sure you know a particular disc inside out and do a good comparison between the original and replacement cords. Try it several different times too, don't be in a hurry. Send it back if you don't hear a difference.
madmax

HBombToo

I really figured I'd be beat about the Head, neck and chest over this one... It must be the Holiday chear.;)

In all seriousness though, the only piece of gear I have that does not have a removeable high end power cord is my h/k 520.

With that said I like the fact that a lot of my stuff is a little higher quality, remember this is a hobbie, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary for an enjoyable listening experience.

HBomb

mantis

HbombToo,

With that said I like the fact that a lot of my stuff is a little higher quality, remember this is a hobbie, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary for an enjoyable listening experience.

This will change from each persons perspective.I can't wait to try the powercord trick.

weavercr

I was not able to hear any significant differences
due to highly specialized power cords when I listened
exclusively to a Class A SS amp, other than using the
heaviest gauge to minimize voltage drop due to the cord,
and if the cord has shielding. The heaviest gauge commonly
avaialble for a pre-molded IEC type cord is 14 Ga. The
shielding available is usually a foil type shield (although some
have a copper braid), and this can help with RFI problems
sometimes.

Once I started listening to a Class AB tube amp, then I
noticed more of an effect with power cords.

It is easy to underestimate how much drop a typical 18 gauge
AC power cord will have on a power amp, and even how much it
might affect a preamp or CD player. Sheer heavy gauge AC
power cords will minimize any dynamic fluctuations and shielding
will help with localized RF or EMI interference problems.

By way of further explanation, I provide this copy of a post on
AC power cords I have made before:

AC Power Cord Effects

So, how in the world can a power cord make any difference,
if it is properly rated for the current draw, and is UL listed?
Like many questions about audio systems, this one seems very
logical and reasonable. Just use Ohm's Law to calculate the
current draw, and viola, we have the voltage drop, and we have
the cold hard facts, Yes?

No.

Like many overly simplistic answers, this one does not take into
account all the facts. Let's look at a hypothetical power amp to
start. Lets say it is a moderately high power design, and is rated
to draw about 8 amps from the wall at full rated power. That's
about 960 watts from the wall. We won't even get into side
issues of switching power supplies, which play total havoc
with the simple Ohm's Law approach, we will stick to linear
power supplies.

So if the AC cord is UL listed for 10 amps, it is likely an 18
gauge cord. Many 18 gauge power cords are rated for 10 amps
of current. How is this rating determined? By how hot the cord
gets while carrying the rated current, NOT how much voltage
drop there is.

In our hypothetical amplifier, the RMS voltage drop in the 6 foot
cord would be approx. 2/3 of a volt according to Ohm's Law.
This does not take into account the wall outlet contact, or the IEC
connectors if present, nor does it take into account any other
factors, just the resistance of the 18 gauge wires in the AC cord.

On the face of it, this seems quite harmless. How could two thirds of
a volt make any difference? Well, because the voltage drop is NOT
2/3 of a volt! Has Ohm's Law been repealed? Are engineers all
insane?

No, just an overly simplified analysis that failed to take into account
ALL the factors. So what could possibly make that much difference.
Well, for one, it would help to know that linear power supplies
refresh their DC reservior from the AC line in bursts of current,
current peaks that are in time with the peaks of the AC line. That
is when the filter capacitors are refilled, when the AC line voltage
its it's peak value, and the output from the secondary reaches a
level above that which the PS capacitors have been drained to.
Instead of a nice steady drain of 8 amps, we have current peaks that
last only for a brief moment, and the 8 amps is an RMS amount.

What this means is that because the current is being drawn only for
a fraction of the AC voltage cycle, or for about 1 thousandth of a
second (one half cycle lasts for 0.0083 seconds). The peak currents
can easily reach ten times the RMS value. What is the voltage drop
for 80 amps? At this point, the resistance of the AC plug contacts,
and even the bond inside the cord between the plugs and the
internal wires become a significant factor. It is not hard for the voltage
drop to reach 5 volts or more. The AC line peaks never reach the full
value, because the line cord has lost some of it.
Power amps depend on receiving the full measure of AC line for
their full rated power, so such a drop will reduce the actual output
power in a seemingly disproportionate amount. A 200 W amp may
be reduced to 170 watts before clipping.

The above (still simplified) analysis assumes a steady signal, and a
steady current draw. Musical dynamics make it a much less
consistent thing, and the dynamic demands will cause dynamic
perturbations.

This is not the only effect on the power amp. These current peaks
can easily cause AC line distortion, and the heavy current draw can
generate harmonics on the line, the hash from the rectifier diodes
can increase, a whole series of events occurs that are not
immediately obvious just by thinking of the amp as a simple resistor
and using Ohm's law.

Most house wiring is either 12 gauge or 14 gauge, while many OEM
cords are 18 or at best, 16 gauge. Most OEMcords do not have
shielding or any provision for reducing radiated EM fields, do not
have premium AC outlet plugs or premium IEC plugs for better
electrical contact at these junctions.

So what happens with a bigger power cord? Replace that 18 gauge
cord with a 14 gauge cord, and the voltage drop will go down by a
factor of about 2 and a half.

Include shielding in that cord, and the possiblity of radiated EMI/RFI
goes down compared to an unshielded cord.
Shielding and radiated EM fields might not seem relevant since the
house wiring has neither advantage. However, the house wiring is
not laying right next to the other component's AC line cords, or right
next to the line level or speaker interconnects. Reduced levels of
induced RFI and radiated EMI/hum fields would not hurt SOTA
sound reproduction.

Since the AC power cord is usually laying right in there with all the
other AC cords, and probably the speaker cables, and the
interconnects (some people even bundle them all together for
neatness, OUCH!), it is quite possible that a premium AC cord
will help reduce interference in the system, and raise the amount
of power available before clipping, and smooth any AC line
distortions, etc.

This is all without even going into secondary effects, or other
more esoteric aspects. Just a more nearly correct way of
applying Ohm's Law to the real situation. Add in ferrite filters,
built-in filter components, shielding effects, and the esoteric aspects,
and it should be obvious that AC cords are not at all simple, nor are
they a no-brainer.

There is the issue of resonant situations. Certain power cords and
power supply transformer primaries might tend to resonate at RF or
high frequencies. This resonance might make RFI/EMI problems
worse, changing to a different cord will change the resonant
frequency, and change the RFI/EMI effects.

The plugs are not a trivial issue either, and may be more responsible
for sonic improvements than the other factors. Hubbel and other
premium plugs and sockets will increase contact area and pressure,
reducing contact resistance and other contact related problems.
It has been claimed that poor AC plug contact can cause micro-arcing,
with it's attendant hash being injected directly into the audio component.

It is not as simple as just simple wire resistance. The connection at
each end of the cord adds resistance, the wall outlet socket adds
resistance, etc.
For the raw wire, round trip:
12 gauge, approx. 6 feet = 0.0206 ohms
14 gauge, approx. 6 feet = 0.0328 ohms
standard AC power cord
18 gauge, approx. 6 feet = 0.0830 ohms

Measuring real AC power cords, I get around 0.128 ohms for an IEC
18 gauge power cord, and about 0.022 ohms for a 12 gauge IEC cord,
not including the AC wall socket connection.

Why is the 18 gauge resistance so much higher than just the wire
resistance? Ever tear one of those cheap cords apart? poorly crimped
or barely soldered connections are responsible for the bulk of the extra
resistance.

Preamps and CD players all have their special requirements:
CD players require shielding to help keep the digital hash that
back-feeds from the circuitry out of the rest of the equipment, preamps
need a nice steady voltage for minimum noise, and freedom from
RFI, etc.

Fancy AC power cord geometries might also reduce the inductance
of the 6-8 feet of line cord, raising the available voltages, but this
would be limited to the ratio between the length of the power cord vs.
the wall run. Such geometries often reduce the radiated energy,
and aid shielding of the cord.

Some power cords might have a built-in filtering action, like the
water jacketed ones, that have the conductors and insulation
surrounded by a conductive fluid. This fluid might short out and
reduce/damp any EM fields the cord would conduct to the component
besides the 60 Hz AC power signal.

It also helps to keep in mind that we are not supplying a Sears rack
system, that any system which aspires toward the SOTA is going to
be more sensitive to minute effects and minute improvements. How
much does a big fat shielded power cord help things? Probably
about as much as upgrading from an OEM interconnect or zip cord
speaker cable to some decent aftermarket cables, some systems
are more sensitive to AC cords, some are less sensitive to cords.

As always, the bottom line is: you have to listen for yourself, and see
if their is any benefit for you, on your system, with your listening habits.

Do AC cords have the potential to influence high end sound? Yes.
Does anyone who believes this also believe that high end cord
costs are justified? No.

Some of the cord/cable manufacturers get carried away with using
only the very finest materials and assembly techniques, carrying
over the technology and costs from their high end audio
interconnects and speaker cables.

Is this necessary? I don't know, I will not discount it out of hand.
Does it make the cords cost a lot? Yes.

Does this make them dishonest or imply that they are deliberately
trying bilk the customer? Not at all.

While AC cords made from certain models of speaker cable may
provide some extra benefit, I have not been able to hear distinct
improvements when comparing them to just plain heavy gauge and
shielded cords when listening to a Class A SS amp. When I
started listening to a Class AB tube amp, then power cord
differences became more apparent.
Results in your system may vary. I have not
tried Belden 89259 in the cross-connected speaker cable hook-
up as an AC cord, but plan to sometime.

Below, I have listed information on DIY heavy-duty AC cords, both
pre-molded and raw wire.

Commercial numbers for these types of cords are:

PREMOLDED
****************
Belden
17604 6 ft. (Around $10)
17605 10 ft.

Still a big heavy cord, but 16 Ga. (and still better than
most OEM cords) are:

17602/3

17608/9 (right angle into gear)

copied from a post by Jon Risch

polkatese

weavercr,
thank you for the great article, appreciated very much....