PC as source/transport - post your experiences

adam2434

Finally got around to starting a thread, although there may have been similar ones, but I could not find anything with a quick search.

The purpose of this is primarily to discuss folks’ experience and set-ups using a PC as a source, and secondarily, to discuss experience and set-ups with their portable players.

Please post if you have actual experience or relevant data in these areas. I want to avoid “there’s no way a PC can be a good source” type arguments, unless there are listening experiences or data to back it up.

I’ll start with my PC audio set-up:

- Rip CDs to flac with EAC.
- Foobar to organize play the flac.
- Scan and tag the flac files with Replay Gain track gain values, and will enable Replay Gain to keep song levels similar for background music. For serious listening, I disable Replay Gain.
- Set Foobar to output 16/44.1 with no upsampling or DSPs enabled.
- Set Windows (Vista) defaults to 16/44.1, disable Windows sounds, disable any soundcard DSP. I also researched and learned that my soundcard does not automatically resample.
- Send 16/44.1 audio from the PC’s coax spdif to a MSB Nelson Link DAC using 65ft Blue Jeans cable (PC is in den, DAC is in basement).
- Back-up flac files to DVD.

I have no complaints with the sound quality and have not been able to hear a difference between the set-up above and playing the same track from CD using my Sony ES as a transport with a 3ft AR Pro Series II optical. I have been able to switch back and forth on the fly with the same track, and could not detect a difference. For reference, I’ve been able to easily distinguish different DACs.


I’ll briefly mention my portable too.

- Transcode flac to mp3 in Foobar with LAME at v0 (highest quality) VBR setting, which is around 235 kbps.
- I sync these with my 30 gb Zune. Sound quality is actually pretty darn decent with easily-driven headphones and using the 1/8” jack to a car’s aux input.

Gaara

You never list out your pc rig. I'll throw down on my impressions when I have more time.

Face

There’s no way a PC can be a good source.

Here's my rig:
-Rip CD's with WMP, using WMP Lossless.
-Tagging is done by WMP.
-Use Foobar as a player.
-NO DSP's enabled.
-Output is 32 bit, no dithering
-Streaming is done via ASIO, Kernal Streaming
-Minimal drivers install, so there is no soundcard DSP or resampling
-Soundcard is a Creative XFi Xtreme Music
-Digital coax(Goertz) and optical(BJC) to pre-amp. Coax is used due to better sound quality IMO.
-PC is in listing room behind a table. All fans are "whisper" quiet, including PS.
-All files are backed up on external HD.

Using my PC as a source, I've compared to my Integra SACD player a few times. IMO, the sound is very similar, with the Integra on the brighter side. As far as which sounding better, it's still really close. A better transport/SACD player is on the list of upgrades. I'm curious to see what the difference will be, if any, once I get a more respectable unit.

Gaara

My PC rig was inspired by Zero. It has gone through a few iterations and currently consists of a USB Monica -> Promitheus Audio Ref1 TVC -> Monarchy SM-70 -> SIA Rothschilde A2s. I tried to stay with the KISS principle in this rig, NOS dac to a passive pre and a class A amp powering some nice bookshelves.

Like most I used EAC to rip to FLAC files. I use Foobar w/ASIO4ALL for playback and use SRC most of the time. My files are used through out the house, upstairs I have a SB3 as well as in the basement. My master plan is to eventually get a car CDP with usb input and get rid of the CD medium all together except for storage. I also keep copies of all my songs in 192kbps VBR LAME files for use in my car and in my work PC.

My portable solution is a Trekstor Vibez feeding a RSA Hornet portable amps which power a pair of Senn HD-650s w/Zu Mobius cable. I also use a pair of Shure E2cs when out and about. I use FLAC mainly, but when I want alot of music I will convert to 320kbps VBR LAME and listen to that.

I perform monthly backups of all my stuff to a external 500gb harddrive which is unplugged at all times, except when backing up.

sucks2beme

I've also got a pc(xp based) running foobar. Files are in flac format.
EAC was used to extract the cd data. It was interesting what cd's it had trouble with. Many of them played ok through a CDP, but wouldn't rip.
Some of them were the same cds I had trouble with on a Pioneer elite cdp
a number of years ago.

I also am using a Monica DAC. Mine is the Monica II usb.
The pc has been optimized for music playback, and is only used for that
task. I am now using Asio4all, I believe from your recommendation.:)

I took this route last fall when I was shopping for a new cdp. I almost
pulled the trigger on a Rega Apollo. Then this idea came up.
I'm only playing back to one system, so using a Sb wasn't an issue.

The combo works better than any of my cdp's, but I wasn't using
anything all that great. I use a usb drive for backup, since a non-critial
app like music playback doesn't need raid

Gaara

sucks2beme wrote: »

Some of them were the same cds I had trouble with on a Pioneer elite cdp
a number of years ago.

I also am using a Monica DAC. Mine is the Monica II usb.
The pc has been optimized for music playback, and is only used for that
task. I am now using Asio4all, I believe from your recommendation.:)

Two FYIs, first there is no such thing as a Monica II usb, the USB Monica and Monica II are different designs. Actually Yeo now makes the Monica III which is based of the USB Monica.

For those cds that have a hard time copying, try burst mode. I had a few cds which didn't want to copy worked when I used burst mode.

SolidSqual

too much work to get it to sound as good as my cd player.

adam2434

Gaara wrote: »

You never list out your pc rig. I'll throw down on my impressions when I have more time.

I don't have a dedicated PC rig per se. I use the PC as a transport for my 2ch system which is

MSB Nelson DAC -> Cambridge C500 pre -> 2 Audiosource Amp Three's monobridged -> Polk LS90's with "A" speaker outputs in main room or "B" speaker ouputs going to a Niles speaker selector that feeds 4 other pair throughout the house, patio, and garage.

bryanj

Great thread. I've been experimenting with this setup myself. I put together a media pc using XP, Foobar, EAC and have been very happy with the results. Playing .flac files through an older external Adcom DAC has worked well. The best cd player I have to compare it to is an Oppo so can't comment on anything better. It would be interesting to compare these rigs to a unit like the Mcintosh MS 750 music server. http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/mcintosh-ms750-music-server.asp
Anybody out there spring for one of these yet?

sucks2beme

Gaara wrote: »

Two FYIs, first there is no such thing as a Monica II usb, the USB Monica and Monica II are different designs. Actually Yeo now makes the Monica III which is based of the USB Monica.

For those cds that have a hard time copying, try burst mode. I had a few cds which didn't want to copy worked when I used burst mode.

Although it's not really a Monica II, it uses the same base platform, plus usb and the gainstage. Yeo made a usb adapter too, at one time.
I've made some of the mods that were incorporated in the III.

At this point, all my cd's have been copied over. The ones that didn't
work with EAC I did in a less reliable way. And I believe I can hear the
difference.

sucks2beme

bryanj wrote: »

Great thread. I've been experimenting with this setup myself. I put together a media pc using XP, Foobar, EAC and have been very happy with the results. Playing .flac files through an older external Adcom DAC has worked well. The best cd player I have to compare it to is an Oppo so can't comment on anything better. It would be interesting to compare these rigs to a unit like the Mcintosh MS 750 music server. http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/mcintosh-ms750-music-server.asp
Anybody out there spring for one of these yet?

I thought about buying a music server I saw come in on trade.
It only did uncompressed or mp3. The Harddrive had proprietary
formatting, and cound only be replaced by the factory. ****!
I think more people would jump on this if someone sold a decent
software program for $100-200 that would be user/remote
friendly, and offered a good performing DAC that didn't break the bank.
I often wonder why I didn't just get the new cdp.
Gaara, does your Monica output seem to be lower than your cdp
output level? Even with the gain stage, it takes more preamp volume to
get the job done.

Gaara

Oh yeah he did a standalone USB converter didn't he, I completly forgot, my b. So is yours a Monica 2 w/ USB converter? I just realized that my source for my PC rig cost more then my main rigs source, weird how that worked out.

As for music servers, I am surprised they are still around with the popularity of SB3s and the Roku units. Pair one together with a great dac and you can have a killer source.

Yeah I remember reading that the Monica II has a output of .2v-.3v, I compared it to other DACs and confirmed it is about 10db lower then ones with a standard 2v output. USB Monica is closer to .8v-1v from personal experience.

Face

bryanj wrote: »

It would be interesting to compare these rigs to a unit like the Mcintosh MS 750 music server. http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/mcintosh-ms750-music-server.asp
Anybody out there spring for one of these yet?

I agree, that would be a interesting comparison. There are a few people over at AudioKarma who have them, I don't believe anyone here does.

sucks2beme

Gaara wrote: »

Oh yeah he did a standalone USB converter didn't he, I completly forgot, my b. So is yours a Monica 2 w/ USB converter? I just realized that my source for my PC rig cost more then my main rigs source, weird how that worked out.

As for music servers, I am surprised they are still around with the popularity of SB3s and the Roku units. Pair one together with a great dac and you can have a killer source.

No, you are right, it's technically the Monica usb. I've been in the habit of
calling it Monica II usb, because it's the newer design as opposed to a Monica with usb adapter.
With mods and options, it gets a bit confusing.So how does it stack up beside the less expensive cdp setup?:D

The music servers are still out there because it's all a pain in the rear.
Someone is always ready to plunk down a few grand on the turnkey solution.
This one looks good,http://www.sonos.com/landing/lp_single_zone.htm?tref=land&ovchn=GGL&ovcpn=Google+Adwords&ovcrn=sonos&ovtac=ppc&gclid=CIOCz8ex3pICFQx4HgodAm_5iA

adam2434

Does a product like the below exist? Would be pretty cool and would be more like a standard source for those who do not want or can't have their PC directly in the chain.

* A device that contains a nice DAC and connects to an external HD, and has it's own file management system and a video ouput so you can control music selection. *

You would use your PC to rip to wav, flac, or whatever to the external HD, then move the HD to where your 2ch rig is loacated and connect to the device. I could see something like this maybe catching on with audiophiles who want a more typical 2ch rig, sans PC.

Gaara

adam2434 wrote: »

* A device that contains a nice DAC and connects to an external HD, and has it's own file management system and a video ouput so you can control music selection. *

It sounds like you are describing a Squeezebox, or maybe a popcornhour w/hard drive.

adam2434

Gaara wrote: »

It sounds like you are describing a Squeezebox, or maybe a popcornhour w/hard drive.

A SB needs to be connected to a PC, right? Also, does a SB have an internal file management system and video out?

I'll have to look up the popcornhour, never heard of that.

I'm thinking of a device that needs no PC connection, just pulls music from an external HD, has it's own GUI and file management system, and has a video out so you can display the GUI on your TV or a small monitor. Also, it would have a high quality DAC and anolog output, as well as a digital out for those who want to use an external DAC.

In reality, some portable players like iPods and Zunes have much of this functionality. I'm thinking something more audiophile oriented and with the capability to connect with a large external HD.

sucks2beme

The new SB duet looks like a step in the right direction.
I'd like to see about $1000 device like this. It would be the
smart remote, a high quality dac, and the slimserver software in one
package. I wonder if the controller can output straight out of the
pc hosting slimserver s/w(free download) to a usb dac?
I will have to look into this.

fatchowmein

- HighPoint RocketRaid 1740 connecting four 400GB SATA II in Raid 5 (a tad under 1.2TB)
- If I'm lazy: iTunes import using Apple Lossless with error correction
- If I'm not lazy: EAC rip to WAV, converted to Apple Lossless with dBpoweramp music converter (it has a batch feature that itunes doesn't have)
- Tagging done by Tag&Rename.
- Playback through SB3 via 100MB LAN

I would prefer flac but we're an iPod house.

I did try using the Xbox 360 as a front end to connect to the Windows Media Center Edition backend but Windows Media Player 11, although pretty, doesn't read the tags correctly off of Apple Lossless files (m4a). WMP requires a patch to play m4a as a video file and is limited in it's ability to FF or RW through a song but you can skip tracks.

I gave up on music through the xbox after purchasing the SB3 since I only needed it and my amp and receiver on and it's nice to listen to music without the TV on in a semi dark room. The Squeeze Center will transcode an Apple Lossless file into flac on the fly as it sends the signal to the SB3. I have not had a lag problem running a Pentium D 805 with 2GB DDR2 memory. I have not purchase a DAC for the SB3 yet.

I have used remote desktop (RDP) to access the file server from a laptop in the living room in order to control Squeeze Center but I prefer to use iTunes to create playlists.

fatchowmein

adam2434 wrote: »

A SB needs to be connected to a PC, right?.

Yes.

adam2434 wrote: »

Also, does a SB have an internal file management system and video out?.

Squeeze Center is the management software. There is no video out.

adam2434 wrote: »

I'm thinking of a device that needs no PC connection, just pulls music from an external HD, has it's own GUI and file management system, and has a video out so you can display the GUI on your TV or a small monitor. Also, it would have a high quality DAC and anolog output, as well as a digital out for those who want to use an external DAC.

The Xbox 360 and PS3 comes to mind. I believe the 360 is limited to Fat32 partitions on the external HD. I haven't tried music through the PS3 so perhaps someone else can chime in but it does not have analog out. The 360 does. Both aren't exactly high-end quality DACs but have optical outs if you want to add one.

Gaara

SB3 has its own display to see what you are doing, and connects wirelessly to your pc. A popcorn hour is a streaming device for video and audio, but it looks like you can throw a harddrive in it and it can be a standalone product. I am sure the DAC won't be anything special, just get a external and you are GTG.

An audiophile Ipod? Like the RWA Imod?

adam2434

Gaara wrote: »

An audiophile Ipod? Like the RWA Imod?

I've kind of derailed my own thread a bit, but that's OK.

I'm not talking about a portable or hotrod portable.

I was thinking more along the lines of a nice DAC that uses an external HD as its transport. So think of it as more of a standard hi-fi DAC. However, it would also have its own file management and playback firmware/software, something simple and lightweight, similar to Foobar. It would have a VGA and video out so you could to display the GUI on your TV or maybe a small dedicated LCD monitor. Maybe you could use a mouse or remote control to select music, set-up playlists, etc. It might even have a digital input for another source, as well as a digital out for connection to a higher end DAC.

What I'm envisioning is ripping to wav or lossless (lossless probably being better due to better tagging) on your PC and saving to the external HD. Then, the HD would be connected to this DAC/playback device, which would be in your audio equipment rack. The HD would simply replace your CDs in a more traditional hi-fi set-up. Then, you would use a small monitor to view and select your music. The net result would be the convenience of a PC-based source, but without the necessity/complexity of a PC, and with very high sound quality (which I believe can also be achieved with a PC as a transport).

bigaudiofanatic

MAKE IT EASYER ON YOURSELF use itunes and set is at losless call it a day.

Face

adam2434 wrote: »

I was thinking more along the lines of a nice DAC that uses an external HD as its transport. So think of it as more of a standard hi-fi DAC. However, it would also have its own file management and playback firmware/software, something simple and lightweight, similar to Foobar. It would have a VGA and video out so you could to display the GUI on your TV or maybe a small dedicated LCD monitor. Maybe you could use a mouse or remote control to select music, set-up playlists, etc. It might even have a digital input for another source, as well as a digital out for connection to a higher end DAC.

What I'm envisioning is ripping to wav or lossless (lossless probably being better due to better tagging) on your PC and saving to the external HD. Then, the HD would be connected to this DAC/playback device, which would be in your audio equipment rack. The HD would simply replace your CDs in a more traditional hi-fi set-up. Then, you would use a small monitor to view and select your music. The net result would be the convenience of a PC-based source, but without the necessity/complexity of a PC, and with very high sound quality (which I believe can also be achieved with a PC as a transport).

The closest thing to your description was already mentioned.
http://mcintoshlabs.com/products/mcintosh-ms750-music-server.asp

sucks2beme

Yeah. All I have to do is crap $6k and it's mine!

fatchowmein

sucks2beme wrote: »

Yeah. All I have to do is crap $6k and it's mine!

You would be my best friend and I would take you to buffets all day long.

Marty913

sucks2beme wrote: »

Yeah. All I have to do is crap $6k and it's mine!

Or you could drop $400 on a Squeezebox Duet and use the PC you already have all your music stored on.

Or for a lot less than 6K you could stick a really nice laptop on your equipment rack. Not sure whether the optical out could be done with a laptop but the video out / file management / hard drive would be taken care of.

Marty913

Marty913 wrote: »

Or you could drop $400 on a Squeezebox Duet and use the PC you already have all your music stored on.

Or for a lot less than 6K you could stick a really nice laptop on your equipment rack. Not sure whether the optical out could be done with a laptop but the video out / file management / hard drive would be taken care of.

You know, the more I think about it, the laptop ($600 - $1000) hooked to a $250 Squeezebox controller (direct Ethernet or wireless) basically provides all of the benefits of the 6K McIntosh and you can use the laptop for other stuff. Makes me wonder if $6000 for a grand worth of parts isn't a little over-priced.

adam2434

Marty913 wrote: »

You know, the more I think about it, the laptop ($600 - $1000) hooked to a $250 Squeezebox controller (direct Ethernet or wireless) basically provides all of the benefits of the 6K McIntosh and you can use the laptop for other stuff. Makes me wonder if $6000 for a grand worth of parts isn't a little over-priced.

Well, I'm sure you are also getting high end DAC performance for that kind coin, but still, you can get a very nice DAC for $1000-2000.

You're probably also paying for a lot of R&D that went into its design.

It seems like music severs in general are kind of pricey vs. similar functionality in a PC and DAC system.

Marty913

adam2434 wrote: »

Well, I'm sure you are also getting high end DAC performance for that kind coin, but still, you can get a very nice DAC for $1000-2000.

You're probably also paying for a lot of R&D that went into its design.

It seems like music severs in general are kind of pricey vs. similar functionality in a PC and DAC system.

I agree but I suppose there are plenty of folks out there that don't think $6K is a big deal - and maybe don't want to mess with computers. For me, I think the answer probably lies with the wireless Squeezebox Duet or a micro-ATX motherboard in a mini-case with an optical out & a wired SB. I know a couple of the members (NSpindel for one) had their SB modified with a higher end DAC & power supply. I just don't want to keep my music too many places.

sucks2beme

A $300 laptop from a pawn show(Some of these are fairly new, just a
small hd) a usb hardrive and usb dac. Put it on top your rack, and you're set.
Dedicate it (tweaking settings for background tasks) will allow even a slower
laptop to work ok. Lets say $500 for the laptop, extenal drive.
Usb dac on a budget- Keces 151. We are now up to about $800.
Add a bluetooth wireless presentation mouse, $50 to flip through the
playlist.