My Blu-Ray Initiation: Sony BDP-S2000ES Blu-Ray Disc Player

SteveSun

I own both BDP-S1 and BDP-S300, does anyone know that can I swap their internal BD drives? I like to use S1 as a CD player. Any answers will be appreciated.

morksbeanbag

They both have the same drive I think, the BDP-100 drive.

So changing those won't make any difference.

The BDP-S1 has the better case and audio board. From what I can tell they have the same drive and PSU board too.

If you can post some high res pics of the internals of the BDP-S1 then I can check directly with the BDP-S300 i have here. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you took the processing board (that contains the firmware) of the S300 and placed it in the BDP-S1 that you would get all the advantages in build and DAC section of the S1 but with the CD/CD-R playing features of the S300.

morksbeanbag

Darque Knight - The first true non pioneer Sony Blu ray drive was announced today.

The BDP-S5000ES. http://www.sonyinsider.com/2008/08/28/bdp-s5000es-high-end-player-touches-down/

http://presscentre.sony.eu/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=257&NewsAreaID=2

That looks more like it! I don't think this has a pc drive. Also it uses an R-core transformer, I'd think only for the audio though as in the 999ES.

I've just bought a BDP-S1E, it'll keep me going until this monster arrives.

With any luck we'll see a beefed up version, a BDP-S9000ES perhaps. With the build of the 9000ES but with the features of the 5000ES and then some.

skykeys

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I read where blu-ray holds real potential for high resolution audio, apparently four times the amount of data than DSD for music only titles, the music only discs are starting to trickle out, perhaps a clue into why the bean counters at Sony have locked the SACD away in their vault.

Guess I am not much of a video guy as I can live with 480p upsampled at least at this point I can. But I would add a blu-ray player to the Woodshed Rack IF there were ample music software titles that you could play without a monitor for the menu.

Well, my understand is that all DVD movie audio tracks are compressed, so that the new "HD" audio formats for Blu-ray are really just uncompressed (lossless) audio in the same vein as any good CD or SACD recording. I'm not sure if the new TrueHD or DTS audio formats can in theory deliver better audio than SACD. Perhaps someone here can let me know.

I for one am not giving up on the SACD and DVD-A formats. There is still plenty of content available and there will be players that support it for a long time - just like there are still phono inputs in receivers today. Given that SACD is a Sony format just like Blu-ray, I imagine (and hope) that Sony will continue to support SACD (and perhaps resurrect it).

I digress a tad by saying that I just picked up an Oppo DV-980H, which supports SACD and DVD-A. I've found an interesting guy who mods these players with, among other components, an upsampling 32-bit DAC, that is supposed to be great. I may end up going in that direction.

Regards.

DarqueKnight

morksbeanbag wrote: »

The first true non pioneer Sony Blu ray drive was announced today.

Thanks for the heads up. Sony should have all the bugs worked out by the time I'm ready to upgrade in a couple or three years.:)

Systems

morksbeanbag wrote: »

The S300 uses Burr Brown PCM1791 DAC's, I can't see what they are on your S2000ES, did you manage to get a look at them?

Any idea as to the opamps they are using for the analog output following the 1791's(which are very good)?I can't see them in the pic so they are likely on the bottom side of the board.

SMPS argh?Virtually every DVD and BR player use these cheap switching supplies ,but it would be nice if they used a real linear power supply atleast for the analog section.

SteveSun

GV#27 wrote: »

Any idea as to the opamps they are using for the analog output following the 1791's(which are very good)?I can't see them in the pic so they are likely on the bottom side of the board.

SMPS argh?Virtually every DVD and BR player use these cheap switching supplies ,but it would be nice if they used a real linear power supply atleast for the analog section.

After the PCM 1971 are 3 x 4580 by JRC, you can change them to any dual OP amps. I use OPA2227.

Yes: all of them use switching mode power supply, but on the DAC audio board, there are 78MXX/79MXX linear regulators.

dorokusai

SteveSun wrote: »

I own both BDP-S1 and BDP-S300, does anyone know that can I swap their internal BD drives? I like to use S1 as a CD player. Any answers will be appreciated.

Have you checked out Agoraquest? That's a better forum for that particular question. It's a great website for all things Sony.

The PS3 is generic in this regard so I wouldn't expect anything different.....you never know, when it comes to Sony.

SteveSun

morksbeanbag wrote: »

They both have the same drive I think, the BDP-100 drive.

So changing those won't make any difference.

The BDP-S1 has the better case and audio board. From what I can tell they have the same drive and PSU board too.

If you can post some high res pics of the internals of the BDP-S1 then I can check directly with the BDP-S300 i have here. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you took the processing board (that contains the firmware) of the S300 and placed it in the BDP-S1 that you would get all the advantages in build and DAC section of the S1 but with the CD/CD-R playing features of the S300.

Thanks, but I am 100% sure that S1 and S300 use different BD drives! S1 uses a first generation Pioneer OEM BD writable drive, and S300 and other models use BPD100 BD reader. Just not sure what's in S1E. If S1E uses BPD100, we would know that they are swappable.

SteveSun

Here is the answer: S1 and S300 internal drive are NOT swappable! I saw "DRIV ERR" on the display. So my last hope is to get a S1-E from other countries...

Systems

SteveSun wrote: »

After the PCM 1971 are 3 x 4580 by JRC, you can change them to any dual OP amps. I use OPA2227.

Thanks for the reply Steve,you are a brave fella, I assume those op amps are surface mount devices so it can be a delicate operation changing them.
Did you find the BurrBrowns to offer an improvement in SQ?

but on the DAC audio board, there are 78MXX/79MXX linear regulators.

Thats certainly better than getting the the voltage directly off the switching supply but the LM78/79 regs are not good at rejecting noise from the supplies feeding them.However the >120db PSRR of the the 2227 should be a big help here.

morksbeanbag

I'm also really interested in whether you heard much difference with new opamps. The BDP-S1E uses JRC 2114's which can be swapped directly for OPA 2604 Burr Brown units, nine in total. With the new S5000ES announced I'm happy to use my BDP-S1E for a base for mods, especially the audio section. I've saved up a bunch of R-core transformers from older Sony ES units, hopefully something these will be suitable and provide a much purer supply than the SMPS.

SteveSun

For the DAC output OPs, depending what machines you use, that is a very dedicate issue. In my S300, I changed (only the one closest to the 2 ch audio and L/R out) the original JRC4580 dual OP to TI/BB OPA2227. Be honest, the difference is not very big. At that place, my favorite OP of the choice is LME45720 by national semi, but after that UCC AVF 47 uF/63V coupling cap muffed a lot of details of OP amps. I am still try to use UCC LXZ or Panasonic FM series caps instead. (Elco coupling caps are not bad, but we need to find low ESL and ESR types). I am not a big fan of Black Gate caps: too expensive!

However, S300 sounds very good (compare with my SCD-1 on regular red book CD) out of the box, I just want to make it sound better! And S1 should sound substantially better because of the DACs. S1 uses previous generation of PCM1792/4, but S300 only uses PCM1791A, I just do not know what are in the other models. Regarding 78XX/79XX regulators: they depends on the manufacturers! On-Semi or Linear 78XX/79XX are very well made, and that is what I want to change next step.

Could any one who own a S1E provides the internal drive info and DAC model number? Thanks a lot.

My current audio system:

1. FM: Quad FM4, Denon TU-1500
2. Preamp: Quad 34 (heavily modified by myself), BAT 50SE, Grounded Grid
3. Quad 306 (50% redesigned by myself, plus some modification), BAT 150 mono, mono, homemade 6C33C OTL
4. Speakers: Tannoy Autograph Mini, Stirling LS3/5-II, Quad 989

SteveSun

morksbeanbag wrote: »

I'm also really interested in whether you heard much difference with new opamps. The BDP-S1E uses JRC 2114's which can be swapped directly for OPA 2604 Burr Brown units, nine in total. With the new S5000ES announced I'm happy to use my BDP-S1E for a base for mods, especially the audio section. I've saved up a bunch of R-core transformers from older Sony ES units, hopefully something these will be suitable and provide a much purer supply than the SMPS.

Cound you tell me what DACs are used in S1E? My S1 does not use 1791! Or you only see one or three OP amps after each DAC? Couls you provide a picture of a DAC picture and its OP amp.

A personal question: is there any way to transfor S300 to S1E so that I can play CD! Sony completely wasted the audio board in S1!

Regards

Steve

Systems

SteveSun wrote: »

but after that UCC AVF 47 uF/63V coupling cap muffed a lot of details of OP amps. I am still try to use UCC LXZ or Panasonic FM series caps instead. (Elco coupling caps are not bad, but we need to find low ESL and ESR types). I am not a big fan of Black Gate caps: too expensive!

The 1791 is a dual differential DAC so the DC at the output will be very low,aswell the 2227 is a low offset device.Therefore you could safely remove the output cap and just use a wire jumper.I modded a pair of Pioneer 563's (see link)that used the 1791 and I directly coupled the output without encountering any DC issues.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55733&highlight=MODDING+SACD+PLAYER

SteveSun

Be more precise, S1 uses 3 TI/BB 1738E differential current output DACs, and S300 uses 3 TI/BB 1791A differential voltage output DACs, and the difference between the two is HUGE!

If S1E uses 1738E as S1, the choice of OP amps after the DACs will not be the same as S300. OPA2604 is not a very good choice for I/V converting, I would choose TI's THS series high speed, high slew rate OPs for I/V conversion, then either OPA2227 or LME49720 for output buffer/filter.

So far my S300 is using 1791A with noise floor about 110 dB, and I am using OPA2227 is not a bad choice. OPA 2227 sound very very neutral, without the sound "signature" of OPA134 or 604.

morksbeanbag

My S1E was supposed to arrive today but never materialised.

Hopefully tommorow.

morksbeanbag

Got my S1E opened up here.

The DAC's used are PCM 12738EG's by Burr Brown. The opamps are JRC 2114's and the drive is a BDP-102SO.

SteveSun

morksbeanbag wrote: »

Got my S1E opened up here.

The DAC's used are PCM 12738EG's by Burr Brown. The opamps are JRC 2114's and the drive is a BDP-102SO.

Thanks a lot! Are the DACs 1738E instead of 12738? My S1 uses BB PCM1738E. If I guessed correctly, after each DAC, there should have 3 OP amps: 2 for I/V converting, and the other one is the output OP. Again, JRC2114 is not my favorite for I/V converting and balanced to single-ended conversion.

The drive is BPD-102... :eek: Mine is BPD-100, so I need to experiment on using S1's DAC board on S300. But not very optimistic about this: different DACs have different control commands... I will post appropriate OPs for 1738 later.

BTW, I read the datasheet of PCM1791A and compared with S300 DAC board, and I found the DAC output circuits (low pass filters) are identically the same as the one on the 1791 datasheet! However, Sony changed the suggested OP amps (NE5532 or OPA2134) to JRC ones.

Another news: I just got a BDP-S350, cracked it open, but saw no DACs! They must be hiding under the heat-sink!

skykeys

iskandam wrote: »

. . . So far I've been extremely satisfied with the PS3 as a bluray/CD/SACD player. I don't even use it to play games. Even regular DVDs sound better on the PS3 compared to my Oppo Digital

Interesting. I don't have a PS3, but my son has an XBOX 360 and I have a Oppo DV-980H. Playing movies on both, the audio certainly sounds better on the Oppo than the XBOX. But additionally, the Oppo supports SACD and DVD-A, and either of those formats have far superior audio characteristics than basic CD or any DVD movie. I don't think that the PS3 supports SACD or DVD-A, but not having one, I'm not certain.

I would assume (and expect) the new Sony BDP-S2000ES to have very good audio capability. But in terms of value for $ - specifically regarding audio, I think the Oppo may be better. A mod can be done to the Oppo that "should" give it at least as good, and probably superior sound quality to the Sony unit, for roughly the same money overall. http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Oppo_Player_Mods.html

I'll be interested to see if that same mod will be able to be performed on the upcoming (but not yet released) Oppo Blu-ray player.

Erik Tracy

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I read where blu-ray holds real potential for high resolution audio, apparently four times the amount of data than DSD for music only titles, the music only discs are starting to trickle out, perhaps a clue into why the bean counters at Sony have locked the SACD away in their vault.

Guess I am not much of a video guy as I can live with 480p upsampled at least at this point I can. But I would add a blu-ray player to the Woodshed Rack IF there were ample music software titles that you could play without a monitor for the menu.

Could be, but when I've had friends over to watch BD on my 1080p plasma and with a reference type of title, I practically have to wipe the drool off of their mouths when they see what BD can offer for PQ.

One friend had to leave early, but stood mesmerized watching - until she was a good 20 minutes late!

In a direct A/B real time comparison that I did between SDVD and BD for the same title, BD won hands down.

My first reaction to SDVD on 1080p plasma display was - hey that is pretty darn good!

Then when I flipped to the same scene playing simultaneously on the BD - my reaction was 'WHOA!' - no comparison for clarity, detail, vividness.

That's not to say that all BD titles shine like that - some are less than stellar and would not justify changing up from SDVD.

Once you go blu - you can't go back

skykeys

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

I read where blu-ray holds real potential for high resolution audio, apparently four times the amount of data than DSD for music only titles, the music only discs are starting to trickle out, perhaps a clue into why the bean counters at Sony have locked the SACD away in their vault.

Guess I am not much of a video guy as I can live with 480p upsampled at least at this point I can. But I would add a blu-ray player to the Woodshed Rack IF there were ample music software titles that you could play without a monitor for the menu.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how or if this technology will be used for audio-only production. I notice that Sony did just release a brand new high end SACD disc player. Given that Sony has part ownership in both SACD and Blu-ray, I wonder how this will play out? The problem with their new SACD player is, it doesn't support DVD-A (since that is a competing format). I am a big fan of both SACD and DVD-A audio discs. (SACD probably has the edge in quality, but I love both formats). There are plenty of good DVD-A discs available (that are not available in SACD format). So, there is a downside as well as an upside to having a proprietary format win out.


My understanding (which I think is accurate, but I'm not 100% certain), is that all DVD movies use a compressed audio format. The so-called HD lossless audio formats are "only" on par with CD quality audio. While there is certainly a lot more space available on Blu-ray discs on which to put a large amount of audio data, the format's potential is the key.

SACD and DVD-A don't just have more data, they are a different format (and more expensive to produce) from the plain CD format. The question is: Are Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master audio truly as good as, or actually superior to SACD or DVD-A in terms of sound quality potential? And in either case, are they viable formats for audio-only discs. I just don't know, but I will begin to research the issue. Even if they are viable, you still have the issue of competing proprietary formats.

Systems

SteveSun wrote: »

the DAC output circuits (low pass filters) are identically the same as the one on the 1791 datasheet! However, Sony changed the suggested OP amps (NE5532 or OPA2134) to JRC ones.

As did Pioneer in my DV563.



I have a complete evaluation board for the 1792 and it uses 5534's for both the I-V and LPF/output buffers.I don't really need another DAC but some day I may throw it in a chassis and replace the 5534's with OPA627's.

SteveSun

Hi GV#27: cool! PCM1792 will kill all audio DACs used in Sony BDP-SXXX! (except S1) Also, the OPA627BP! I am testing TI THSXXX OPs for I/V converting and OPA2227/OPA2132 as output OP amps.

Last night, I installed the S1E firmware 4.2 in my S300 and it works flawlessly. This weekend, I will try to swap their DAC boards, and hope to get it work!

Systems

SteveSun wrote: »

Hi GV#27: cool! PCM1792 will kill all audio DACs used in Sony BDP-SXXX! (except S1) Also, the OPA627BP! I am testing TI THSXXX OPs for I/V converting and OPA2227/OPA2132 as output OP amps.

If I feed it with a decent power supply it should be a good sounding DAC.Yeah the 1738's in the S1 are better,or atleast on paper.

This weekend, I will try to swap their DAC boards, and hope to get it work!

That will be interesting ,good luck .

SteveSun

Hi GV#27: First, I think THS4032 from TI is better suited for I/V conversion right on the outputs of PCM1792, then the OP amps used for LPF depends on the design of the LPF, OPA627BP is good of course, but also you could try LM4562 (or its newer variation). Second: Sony's new BDP-S350 uses AKM-4382 DAC + JRC4580 based LPF (same LPFs as in 4382's data sheet again)! In its stock form, I think it sounds better than S300, but the chassis of S350 is too small to improve its power supply (the only things that we can do about S350 SMPS are changing better diodes, caps, ferrite beads).

After swapping S300 and S1 DAC boards, I will report back about the results.

Systems

Hi Steve thanks for the suggestions I will take a closer look at those TI parts.The LM4562 is a dual so it will not work in my board.The 627 is my first choice for I/V conversion but also considered the ultra fast AD844.I have a long list of IC's I'd like to try in the LPF/output section including the OPA627,227,134,and the AD825.

SteveSun

Hello! DONE! I am running my S300 with S1 DAC board using Ver 4.2 S1E firmware! (I tried to use the chassis of S1 by swapping other boards, but that way is a dead-end due to the pin numbers of control bus, power supply sockets between PCBs). All these PCB's have the same screw locations, but the audio boards' RCA output sockets do not fit back plates. The last step is to get rid of the original S1 DAC board RCA sockets and install RCA sockets on the back plate.

Also, I would change all caps on S300 power supply to larger and better ones (Panasonic FM series), all OP amps on the DAC PCB and improve the mechanical strenth of the chassis.

So, S1E is actually a mix of S1 (chassis, DAC board, power supply board and front control module) and S300 (BPD-10X BD reader, digital board)!

I need to thank all people here! This trial will not be successful without you folks!

goingganzo

i am verry happy with my supper awsome fastloading ps3/onkyo 705 in the bed room with my 40 in 1080p lcd samsung

SteveSun

Now, my "combo" S-300 has been running S1E FW4.2 + S-300 + S1 audio board for avout 2 weeks and have no problems at all! SonyStyle.com is selling refurbed S1 for USD350, folks can get a S1 audio board that way, and the "body" of S1 can be used as usual thru HDMI!
However, working on S1 audio board is difficult! PCM1738EG is a good chip, but its current output is only half of that of PCM1792. The I/V converting OPs that I am planning to use are TI THS4032, and the LPF/output OP I will use are National's LM4562 or LME49720. External audio board power supply should be easy to implement, and if it is possible, it is better to raise the supply voltage up to +/- 15V, if you decided to change all OP amps. Just one thing: PCM1792's SN ratio is about 135 dB, you need a very very clean and fast power supply... But anyway, changing the audio board on S300 is the first step.

Last: BDP-S1 service manual is available from Sony Direct Part Supply Center (1-800-488-7669), but they do not sell only S1's audio board...