Interconnects, and why I now hate you guys

WilliamM2

Boy, oh boy....measurements are one thing. How exactly do you measure a sound stage? Precise imaging? Stereo separation and blending? Depth perception?.....and a multitude of other things in audio reproduction?

You can't. It's subjective. Everything affects everything.

Yes you can, and it doesn't even involve measurements. There is a very easy way to prove that cables sound different, and all you need is your ears. Yet no one has done it. and most refuse to even try. Why is that?

Now to answer your question, "what would you call people who believe in something that no one has been able to prove?"
Experienced.

Does this also apply to people who believe in the paranormal, big foot, the lock ness monster, alien abductions? Are they just experienced? Where do you draw the line?

WilliamM2

treitz3 wrote: »

Yes I am, I am finally getting the fact that WilliamM2 recommends cables because they don't change the sound, but they look pretty.

In the exact words...."Nicely constructed cable and it's cheap."

HELL of a recommendation William, Hell of a recommendation. My hat's off to you as you obviously know why we are all here. For the looks of things. :rolleyes:

I should have known better.

Where did I mention looks, or the cables being pretty?

ben62670

I left out blah blah blah blah:D
Check my sig.
People who fallow some engineers too much think you can measure everything. I believe that everything is most likely measurable, but we have not yet figured out how to measure it. Cocky scientists, and engineers who think they know a lot just remind me to look at some of the old science beliefs. The earth is flat, we know how many stars there are... Scientists, and engineers are very good at proving themselves wrong. Galileo did it with the telescope, and I can't remember who actually made it around the world, but just a couple simple points. In a day, or 100 years (who knows)they will probably be able to measure what we hear, and look back and laugh at those who argued the world is flat. Oops I mean cables don't make a difference;):p:D

Sami

It has nothing to do with measuring the cable as instruments can measure more accurately than human ear can hear. Proving, I think William is referring the tests where you actually listen to the cables. I'm not taking any sides on the issue myself but the fact is that nobody has ever been able to prove they can hear a difference.

jakelm

2 reasons I can honestly recommend a cable.

1. It can withstand the test of time. Pulling on and off for years and shielding.

2. Refer to #1

I cant recommend a cable becuase of the way it sounds, because SQ is purely subjective. But usually if #1 is true, then SQ will be there also.

I keep my recommendations to facts. If the fact is they are built well for the price, I will recommend it.

Oh... and if I think they are pretty:p:D


Its good to see you back Ben...:)

ben62670

Sami wrote: »

I'm not taking any sides on the issue myself but the fact is that nobody has ever been able to prove they can hear a difference.

Thats a funny one:D
Incredibly funny:D:D:D
Please don't take it as picking on you, because I have heard this one many times, but...
The fact is that nobody has ever been able to prove people can't hear a difference;):p:D

Hey Jake its kinda good to be back, but this means I am away from my girls:(

treitz3

ben62670 wrote: »

Beating a dead horse here.

I know Ben.

Rivrrat, congrat's on your new found sound! Willie, I'll catch up with you tomorrow. I have a date with the pillow right now that will hold more intellect than you. Until then, keep recommending cables that don't change anything sonically and see how many folks here actually take your recommendations.

:rolleyes:

ben62670

7 members viewing... 3 in hiding... the suspense is friggen killing me!!!
I don't understand why people like to hide? Do they like the surprise attack, or are just embarrassed at the threads they looking at?

treitz3

Sami wrote: »

I'm not taking any sides on the issue myself but the fact is that nobody has ever been able to prove they can hear a difference.

Make it to Polkfest, NC or any event I will be at and I will prove it. I've said it before, I'll say it again. It's not that hard to do.

jakelm

Cables threads are getting to by like God threads.

"Prove to me, that cables make a difference"

"No, you prove to me that cables dont make a difference"

A perfect circle argument.

Sami

ben62670 wrote: »

The fact is that nobody has ever been able to prove people can't hear a difference;):p:D

Actually the fact is the other way. Plenty of double blind tests where it has been proven people can't distinguish between the cables they are listening to. Either way you look at what the reason for that is, they can't hear the difference.

Sami

treitz3 wrote: »

Make it to Polkfest, NC or any event I will be at and I will prove it. I've said it before, I'll say it again. It's not that hard to do.

Well, can you make it next weekend?

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63974

Like I said, I'm not taking any sides on the issue so if you can prove it, I'll gladly accept the results. So have you actually done a double blind cable test before?

ben62670

Sami wrote: »

Actually the fact is the other way. Plenty of double blind tests where it has been proven people can't distinguish between the cables they are listening to. Either way you look at what the reason for that is, they can't hear the difference.

This argument is silly funny too. Where is the I am falling out of my chair Icon?
You can find anything you want on the internet to prove what you believe. Not being a smart Alick, but I truly feel bad for you if you can not hear the difference good cables make in a good system. I did not believe that cables made a difference, and laughed at those who did believe it, but I tried a few different cables, and...

I am not Paul Harvey
Good Night:)

treitz3

jakelm wrote: »

"Prove to me, that cables make a difference"

"No, you prove to me that cables dont make a difference"

Real simple to solve. Have them come down to witness first hand blindfolded, double blindfolded, triple blindfolded...whatever. Something tells me even though they witness it, they will still leave with the same thought process.

Look at all the cable swap threads. Look at all the threads started by experienced veterans and novices alike. Everybody can't be wrong, yet still.....

"Someone" recommends "pretty" cables that don't make a difference and still holds the thought process that everything can be measured and that any IC/PC or SC can't make any difference whatsoever.

Whatever. To each their own. I'm just glad that we are listening to better, more realistic reproduction than they are. That's a fact, Jack.

jakelm

I know what you guys are saying, on both sides of the arguments. I have very little experience in different cables so I cant pick one side or the other.

But,

Wouldnt a freq sweep work?

Run a 10hz-22kz sweep with one set of cables, then switch cables and run another sweep. Compare the 2 sweeps.

You could also check the sweep for phase variations.

treitz3

Sami, no I can't......

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59626

We are holding our own here.

treitz3

jakelm wrote: »

Wouldnt a freq sweep work?

Run a 10hz-22kz sweep with one set of cables, then switch cables and run another sweep. Compare the 2 sweeps.

You could also check the sweep for phase variations.

Um, no.

Sami

jakelm wrote: »

Wouldnt a freq sweep work?

No, not at all. You can measure a lot of things but a human ear isn't as accurate as a machine can be. The only way is to take couple of cables and have someone identify the cables in a blind test where they don't know which cable is hooked up.

ben62670

Sami wrote: »

so if you can prove it, I'll gladly accept the results.

This is where we go wrong. Who cares what someone claims they can prove?
The majority of the long term members here know what they know, and you need to know what you know whatever knowing what you know is;) If you try a couple different cables in your own listening environment, familiar music, same equipment, and you enjoy one cable over another great. If you do not sell them for less, same, or more than you paid for them. Thats how I did it, and also a fellow Polkie bringing over his cables for me to try. BTW try a couple different cable design types, and buying used is sometimes better than buying new. I don't even want to start the burn-in debate:eek:

ben62670

jakelm wrote: »

Wouldnt a freq sweep work?

If you enjoy listening to frequency sweeps:p

Edit
you are heading into measurement territory:eek:
4 members 1 invisible, and 2 "guests"
Someone is sitting back laughing... look what I started again:D

jakelm

treitz3 wrote: »

Um, no.

Ok, fair enough.

The only reason why I brought it up, was:

If you run the sweep and get the exact same results, wouldnt that make the 2 cables identicle?

Isnt music just a different combination of the same soundwaves?

In your opinion, if you have 2 cables with the same properties and the exact same resistance, what would cause them to have different sounds?

Am I correct in thinking that your ear can only hear 4 things really: freq, phase, delay and reflection. The only 4 properties of soundwaves.

These same 4 things can be measured.

Sami

ben62670 wrote: »

This argument is silly funny too.

When everyone has failed the test, I don't think the argument is "silly funny".

Me personally, I don't care one way or the other, as long as I have quality cable hooked up I am happy. In my humble system spending hundreds of dollars on cable just isn't an option, even if there was a small difference I'd rather spend the money elsewhere.

jakelm

ben62670 wrote: »

If you enjoy listening to frequency sweeps:p

Ben I'm just trying to get a better understanding on what people's opinions are about sound. And different ways, sound can be heard.

Sami

ben62670 wrote: »

This is where we go wrong. Who cares what someone claims they can prove?

Not talking about claiming but actually proving.

jakelm

I'm going sleep on it.. Night guys...

ben62670

Sami wrote: »

When everyone has failed the test, I don't think the argument is "silly funny".

Me personally, I don't care one way or the other, as long as I have quality cable hooked up I am happy. In my humble system spending hundreds of dollars on cable just isn't an option, even if there was a small difference I'd rather spend the money elsewhere.

I am just going to ignore the first 2 sentences(rehashed too many times), and I don't recommend spending hundreds of dollars on cables. Decent cables can be had for $30 used. Real good for $60-$80 new/used, and you can go nuts from there if you wish. I do have some $500 speaker cables, but I got them for $50. Are they better sounding than the $200 cables I got for $50 also? Yes, but for $300 more I could not afford it at this stage in my life, and to me it would be a waste of coin. I have 2 little girls, and bills that money could much better be spent on. You nailed it with "In my humble system". My system is pretty humble compared to some of the systems guys have here. Spending uber dollars on cables with a theater in a box system would be retarded. It would be like putting a 1000hp motor in a bone stock car. There is definitely a balance.

ben62670

jakelm wrote: »

I'm going sleep on it.. Night guys...

Yeah I am up way to late too. Working on amps, and playing on the forum.
Goodnight Jake.
Goodnight Sami.

dorokusai

Why can't someone enjoy their inexpensive upgrade without a debate coming out of it? It's sad and so is the argument.

tonyb

dorokusai wrote: »

Why can't someone enjoy their inexpensive upgrade without a debate coming out of it? It's sad and so is the argument.

Well because Mark,common courtesy has left the building along with ELvis many moons ago.

Dont trash someone's parade folks,start your own thread if you want to discuss the why and why nots on a particular subject.

Rivrrat

This is the first time I have seen anyone gush about a $3 cable. Thought it was odd, and the complete opposite of what others report.

WHOA there dude. I was gushing over a 3 dollar cable? I said it made a noticable difference over a stock POS cable, and it was probably going to get me into the vicious cycle of spending too much on IC's. That's a LOOONG way from gushing over a 3 dollar cable

I let a bit go through your other posts, but you might want to reread what I said in my first post, before you go jumping to conclusions.

As far as being a believer....Explain how my wife knew something was different without being told? How much of a blind test is that? Remember I really wasn't much of a believer myself due to my occupation until then either.