Future formats

sucks2beme

Loud & Clear wrote: »

We have achieved complete agreement.

I really like the stupid MP3 download cards at Best Buy.
For $10, you can get a prepaid download card for an album
so you can download lame MP3 format.

I'm still buying real music from real stores.
Rip them to flac, store the cd's out of sight.
Apple can kiss my behind.
If someone comes up with that new better format WITHOUT
DRM, let us know!

Yashu

We, audio enthusiasts, are NOT mainstream. We are a niche market and that's how a temper my comments. I could care less about mainstream. We never have been mainstream, we've always been a niche market.

At least we agree about SOMETHING.

Also, regarding download quality. Please google FLAC, and while you are at it, google .WAV

If you knew anything about what you speak of you would know about lossless formats, and how they are a bit-perfect copy of any other PCM digital format, like CD, or whatever. a FLAC file is going to be indistinguishable from a CD. The computer is just a transport just like any other. FLAC (or other lossless formats) is going to be the online distribution standard soon enough, which means it will be the exact same as having the CD in your hand. Bit for bit, a perfect copy. Do some research, other than that, I think that you will eventually come around to the idea of the PC as a legitimate source, even if it isn't what you prefer. Just because it isn't mainstream does not mean it isn't capable. You always defend the mainstream while at the same time talking about how it doesn't apply to you. Funny.

sucks2beme

Yashu wrote: »

If you knew anything about what you speak of you would know about lossless formats, and how they are a bit-perfect copy of any other PCM digital format, like CD, or whatever. a FLAC file is going to be indistinguishable from a CD. The computer is just a transport just like any other. FLAC (or other lossless formats) is going to be the online distribution standard soon enough, which means it will be the exact same as having the CD in your hand. Bit for bit, a perfect copy. Do some research, other than that, I think that you will eventually come around to the idea of the PC as a legitimate source, even if it isn't what you prefer. Just because it isn't mainstream does not mean it isn't capable. You always defend the mainstream while at the same time talking about how it doesn't apply to you. Funny.

Play nice, now!
Anymore, MP3 is the mainstream.
I've listened both ways. The pc aspect is coming on, but for most users it's a pain.
Real turnkey smooth working machines cost BIIIIIG bucks.
Pc based servers are hard for most to set up. Programs like FOOBAR
and EAC are not real user friendly. And good luck with a remote.
I spent a bunch of time getting my PDA to control FOOBAR.
Poor directions, buggy software, and you will need a good DAC.
OR just buy a good cdp.
I went the pc route, but I'm still wondering some days if it was a good idea.
I am supposed to be a 2 channel knuckle dragger. Having a pc with
a DAC tied to a tube pre and tube power amp seems a bit of an odd mix.

TroyD

Are you a **** or do you just play one on the internet??

Ok, let me try to use small words that your dumb **** can understand.

DSD is superior to PCM. Check.

I don't really care what format the files are in. Be it CD, LP, SACD, FLAC, ****, Snot..whatever. They all have thier markets and as long as the market supports it, fine, I have no problem with it.

Online distribution is NOT the utopia you wish it to be. It isn't now, nor is it likely to be. For reasons that I've laid out and don't care to wish to repeat. Not the least of which is the artists, in general, are just as vehement about protecting thier intellectual property from pirating (re STEALING) as the record companies are. Again, no profit, no product. You still haven't worked that particular bug out of your business model, comrade.

I'm not a mainstream music buff. IE, I don't give a rats **** about the latest Britney Spears or Hannah Montana record. However, I'm not so dense that I don't realize that it's the profitability of the mainstream that allows a lot of 'audiophile' (re less profitiable) material to be released. I'm also not so dense that I don't realize that what the mainstream produces in terms of gear, high end companies improve and perfect. So I don't see the confliction.

Again, for me though, digital downloads and so forth IN THIER CURRENT FORM do not offer the sound quality that my current components do. So why the hell would I be anxious to chuck what I already have and enjoy for something that currently performs at a lower level? That's stupid. So, it really doesn't matter how good FLAC or .WAV is, if I can't play it back in a decent fashion, now does it? Again, the thing you have a hard time digesting is that YOUR paradigm is not universal. Dumbing that down for you, what is a perfect solution for you MAY not be the solution for everyone else.

Now, to take that even a little bit further....let's say that I was interested in purchasing a PC based source that did offer the resolution that I would like and so forth....why would I do it when I already HAVE ON HAND excellent sources and software? Just toss it because PC based sources is the way of the future? Screw that, I've got enough gear and material to keep me happy for the next few decades. I have no interest in pusuing digital just for the 'now' factor. Again, this is for my hifi rig. For my iPod, convenience factor where sound quality isn't the issue, the easier, smaller and cheaper the better.

For your birthday, you might try asking for a Speak'n'Spell.

BDT

cmy330go

Zero wrote: »

I could see something like a small Memory Card eventually replacing the compact disc. The device is inexpensive to manufacture in large quantities. It's also small, durable, highly stable, and can store a tremendous amount of data.

Funny you should mention that. Yesterday I was at a local music shop and I noticed at the front counter they had a small display for someone's new album (can't remember who) on USB flash drive. I wish I had paid more attention to price, bit-rate, etc, but either way I thought that was a pretty cool idea.

Face

sucks2beme wrote: »

Play nice, now!
Anymore, MP3 is the mainstream.
I've listened both ways. The pc aspect is coming on, but for most users it's a pain.
Real turnkey smooth working machines cost BIIIIIG bucks.
Pc based servers are hard for most to set up. Programs like FOOBAR
and EAC are not real user friendly. And good luck with a remote.
I spent a bunch of time getting my PDA to control FOOBAR.
Poor directions, buggy software, and you will need a good DAC.
OR just buy a good cdp.
I went the pc route, but I'm still wondering some days if it was a good idea.
I am supposed to be a 2 channel knuckle dragger. Having a pc with
a DAC tied to a tube pre and tube power amp seems a bit of an odd mix.

I'm sorry, except for needing a good DAC, I completely disagree. I've been using my PC rig as a lossless server for a year or so now.

Almost any old PC will do. As long as it has a decent sized hard drive and a good sound card. With the prices of hard drive space dropping and a good sound card only being in the $100 range, it's a bargain.

I've only experienced one bug with Foobar. While using KS output, I get a slight lag when I adjust my volume. But lately I've only used the volume on my preamp, so this is no longer a issue. Otherwise, I would say that Foobar is fairly easy to use and not a resource hog at all.

As for a remote, I believe there are sound cards that allow you to use a remote. I use my wireless keyboard and mouse instead.

We all know all transports sound different. I SLIGHTLY prefer my Integra transport to my PC server. It sounds a little sharper, otherwise it's indistinguishable. So for convenience alone, I primarily use my PC server. I just hit play on my 3200 song play list and let it roll all day. But for critical listening, I will use my Integra unit.

I'm in the process of having work done to this room. When that is complete, I plan on throwing a CD in the tray and doing some back to back testing between Windows lossless and the actual CD itself.

At this point, the only issue or downfall I see to using a PC server is the fan noise. But this is something I plan on working on shortly. But then again, with the music loud enough, I don't hear no stinkin fans.

Face

mantis wrote: »

I haven't tried ripping Sacd into it yet or do I know it can. I hope it does. That would be way cool.

Having done a little more research, DSD or SACD can't be ripped, per say. But, using the analog in on your PC's sound card, it can be captured. Besides needing a sound card with a good analog in, the only other down fall is that the files are tremendous!

Something for me to consider in the future.

sucks2beme

Face wrote: »

I'm sorry, except for needing a good DAC, I completely disagree. I've been using my PC rig as a lossless server for a year or so now.

Almost any old PC will do. As long as it has a decent sized hard drive and a good sound card. With the prices of hard drive space dropping and a good sound card only being in the $100 range, it's a bargain.

I've only experienced one bug with Foobar. While using KS output, I get a slight lag when I adjust my volume. But lately I've only used the volume on my preamp, so this is no longer a issue. Otherwise, I would say that Foobar is fairly easy to use and not a resource hog at all.

As for a remote, I believe there are sound cards that allow you to use a remote. I use my wireless keyboard and mouse instead.

We all know all transports sound different. I SLIGHTLY prefer my Integra transport to my PC server. It sounds a little sharper, otherwise it's indistinguishable. So for convenience alone, I primarily use my PC server. I just hit play on my 3200 song play list and let it roll all day. But for critical listening, I will use my Integra unit.

I'm in the process of having work done to this room. When that is complete, I plan on throwing a CD in the tray and doing some back to back testing between Windows lossless and the actual CD itself.

At this point, the only issue or downfall I see to using a PC server is the fan noise. But this is something I plan on working on shortly. But then again, with the music loud enough, I don't hear no stinkin fans.

I use a media server case from Antec. Very quiet.
I didn't say it was a resource hog. Just a pain for most
folks to set up . If you're computer savvy, not so bad.
That eliminates most casual users. I started with a
$100 pro sound card, EMU0404. It wasn't bad at all, but
even a cheap usb DAC kills it. I output directly to the usb
with asio, so my volume is only driven by the preamp.
I was using a bluetooth presentation remote, but it was a bit
cumbersome. Using the pda accross the room means that us
old guys can see what's being played. The PDA interface shows
me the playlist. Accoss the room, the playlist is just a blur.
I was getting some latency, but that all went away when I redid the pc settings.
With some Googling, there is some good info on setting it up for music use.
PC audio for the masses will catch fire where someone comes out with
a good, easy player program. Foobar is good, WINamp sucks!
WINamp is full of bullshoot add ons and takes over. Foobar is more basic
and can be setup your way. IF a new player was out there that was
between the two extremes, that would be good.

Yashu

Again, for me though, digital downloads and so forth IN THIER CURRENT FORM do not offer the sound quality that my current components do.

So, it really doesn't matter how good FLAC or .WAV is, if I can't play it back in a decent fashion, now does it?

So you are saying that the bits on your CDs are somehow better than the bits in my FLAC, and WAV output? They are the same bits, friend. Identical. Your britney spears CD is going to have same output whether on a CDP or a computer, so long as both are setup well. There will be only tiny differences, because of other things, nothing relating to the pits and bits themselves.

When you play a CD, you are essentially listening to a .wav file. Is that why you call everyone that uses a PC a theif? Are you that computer illiterate? Do you work for the RIAA? Are you aware that it is legal to copy and share music, even in the US as long as you do not profit from it? Do you know what fair use it? (actually, since we went through the whole SACD thing, you probably do not know what it is, which is strange, since you are an american, you should know your own rights!)

Anyway, other than troyD, to those that said PC audio isn't for everyone, I agree. I think that it isn't the PC we should focus on here, but the distribution model of using the internet and p2p to very easily and effeciently get music from artist to fanbase. One does not *need* a PC to access these networks, and what I think is going to happen, will be what is going on with TV. We have had the ability to have a PC media source for a while now, but it is only now taking off in the form of DVRs and On Demand programming. This is using the same technology, but in a user-friendly format. I forcast a similar system with music, and it is getting there. As bandwidth increases, FLAC will be a drop in the bucket, and by that time, there will be a more user friendly system of music distribution online. CD and SACD are just the media we store data, the transport reads and converts the data into something the DAC can decode... the need for physical media is becoming less and less as time goes on, but that doesn't change the fact that we will still have a DAC decoding i2s or s/pdif at various bitrates and resolutions, it will just reach us via the internet instead of having to drive to a store and buy a disc and drive home to put it in a player that can only play one disc, or have a truck or plane deliver the disc to us, to again, put it in a player that can play one disc. (seriously, I know there are multi-disc changers, but most 'philes have single disc players)

I am not saying everyone will convert to PC audio, I am saying that eventually there will be (there already basically is, it is just young) a system in place that will serve the data over the internet instead of reading it from a disc. The rest is up to you. Devices will be built for all types of budgets and preferences. We have a world wide network in place that can move data at ever increasing speeds. Digital audio in all it's incarnations is just data, bits, ones and zeros, and there is no good reason to avoid using this world-wide network that is only going to become more and more important to all of our lives. The internet, maybe not as it is now, but the idea, a world wide network to shift data around at the blink of an eye, that IS the future. Period. It is the only way our society can continue to grow technologically is for this network to make it's way into more and more aspects of our lives.

Avoid it if you want, but it's not going to keep it from happening. Short of a nuclear war, it's going to happen sooner or later, and for many of us, it is already happening.

Next time you play an SACD, take a moment to look at it before you stick it in the player. You are only looking at binary data... that's it. Data that has been recorded onto a disc. The disc is not what makes it special, some people forget that. It's not vinyl, it's not a carefully constructed groove that needs to be harnessed by a needle, it's just data. Binary data that can be stored and moved around in any way, and in every way that is possible to move any other data on the web.

It's so simple. It's so obvious that the future is not data on a special plastic disc, I don't even know why you argue about it, troy.

The internet has been the catalyst in the creation of more music in the last ten years than I can remember. I used to be able to keep up with new releases... I can't anymore. It's impossible, even if I only stick with one genre. Artists don't need big corporate labels anymore... why is that such a crime to you? Unless you work for one of the RIAA labels, stop pissing in the wind about this. Everyone wins under the developing system, everyone except a few big label executives. Why you want to keep lining their pockets instead of the artists you love, I don't understand. There is no need for them when you can just give your money to the artist and get the music. Why is it so bad for things to be so simple and democratic. Artists are again competing for the attention of fans, the quality of music is increasing in just about every non-pop genre. You act like your world is ending when things are only getting better and better. It is a good time to be a music lover.

F1nut

So, have you booked that trip to Cuba yet? :rolleyes:

sucks2beme

Yashu wrote: »

So you are saying that the bits on your CDs are somehow better than the bits in my FLAC, and WAV output? They are the same bits, friend. Identical. Your britney spears CD is going to have same output whether on a CDP or a computer, so long as both are setup well. There will be only tiny differences, because of other things, nothing relating to the pits and bits themselves.


I believe what's he's stating is that currently his analog source(vinyl)
and SACD sounds much better than anything else he's heard.
Hard to argue with your ears. Even flac can sound like crap
unless you have a good DAC with a good analog section.
And vinyl is another animal all together. Ripping cd tracks to your pc is not exactly 100%.
That's why EAC was written, to try to recover read errors
off the cd. Can digital sound as good YES. Does it sound as good?
Most of the time, the answer is no! Troy has a point, and so do you.
The real world seldom works as well as it does on paper.

jakelm

People (consumers), want to turn it on and press play.

They dont want to have to boot up a PC/hard drive, load a file, open a media player, then turn on a HT AVR push the bottun to access the right input, then adjust the volume, via keyboard and/or mouse, then finally sit down and listen.

I know that I dont want to have to go through all that ****, just to listen to a song.

I turn my CD/DVD player on, press CD/DVD on my AVR remote, then hit play.

I do listen to audio via my PC, but I am not the average Joe. The average Joe/Jane, will say "what the hell do I have to do?". "You want me to do what? Run wires where?" "But I cant put my PC in that corner, it has to go on the other side of the house", "Look, just burn me a copy and I'll listen to it on my DVD player"

Face

Ever hear of a squeeze box or any other wireless device?

Setting up a PC server isn't that difficult, a 10 year old could do it.

jakelm

Face wrote: »

Ever hear of a squeeze box or any other wireless device?

More peices added to the system????

Setting up a PC server isn't that difficult, a 10 year old could do it.

Nope, maybe my wife is just stupid, but I tried showing her how to do it, she laughed at me and said, just go get the cd you made so I can play it in the DVD player.

Now my 12 year old can, becuase he has looked over my shoulder for the past 5 years.

WilliamM2

Are you aware that it is legal to copy and share music, even in the US as long as you do not profit from it? Do you know what fair use it?

It is not legal to share music in the US, even if you don't profit from it. It's called copyright infringement. Fair use means you can make a copy/backup for YOURSELF, not share it with hundreds over the internet. What planet are you from anyways?

sucks2beme

Face wrote: »

Ever hear of a squeeze box or any other wireless device?

Setting up a PC server isn't that difficult, a 10 year old could do it.

Half of America couldn't set their time on their VCRs.:D

I hate the interface on the Squeexbox, and you still need a DAC for
better sound. I do straight from the pc to the DAC.

Face

jakelm wrote: »

More peices added to the system????

See below.

Now my 12 year old can, becuase he has looked over my shoulder for the past 5 years.

Exactly my point.

sucks2beme wrote: »

Half of America couldn't set their time on their VCRs.:D

I hate the interface on the Squeexbox, and you still need a DAC for
better sound. I do straight from the pc to the DAC.

I personally wouldn't use one either unless I had no way to hard wire my PC to my rig. I like to keep things as simple as possible, hence why I recently combined my 2ch. and HT rigs. and avoid things such as tube buffers, etc...

adam2434

Just another $0.02…kind of thinking out loud…

Like most people I know my age (mid 30s) and older, the good old redbook CD is the format we have collected for years, and continue to collect. I actually have several SACDs, and a few DVD-A discs, but they total <2% of my collection

Are there formats with better sound quality than CD?
Yes, of course – SACD, the higher resolution PCM of DVD-A, and a lot of folks would say that vinyl is better. By the way, I think most would agree that a well recorded/mastered CD played on good equipment can sound very good to most excellent, even good enough to be reference media.

Will a higher quality format replace CD, such that you could by any CD’s artist/track available today also on that new format?
Sure doesn’t look like that will happen. I hoped SACD would replace CD, but that never happened. Therefore, I still buy CDs almost exclusively. Since I collect mostly Blues and some other more eclectic music, the majority of it comes from online stores, as it is not mainstream stuff.

Bottom line is that CD is the highest quality format available for the music I want to buy.

Music on PC:
6 months ago, I would not have given it a 2nd thought. Then, we got a new PC with a large HD. I figured I’d play with FLAC (which most folks know is lossless, just like zipping a file) just as an experiment, using EAC to rip and Foobar to play. I could not tell a difference between PC FLAC and the original CD, both being sent to my DAC. I commenced to ripping my collection to FLAC (and backing up to DVD) over the next couple months.

I have to say that I love using the PC as a source. It’s a lot of fun and has allowed me to rediscover much of my collection. One of my favorite things to do is drag my entire Blues collection, about 5000 songs, into a playlist (easily done by just dragging the entire Blues genre, since all the songs are tagged as such) and hit shuffle. It’s like having my own commercial-free all-blues all-the-time radio station, but at CD resolution and with songs I know I’m going to like. Equally fun, is creating a playlist for a party or get-together. I’m hooked.

The Future:
I like having the physical CDs, the album art, the liner notes, even if I’m ripping them to my PC for playback. If given the choice to buy a CD or download at the same quality, I’ll choose the CD and do the work of ripping myself.

If CDs go away, music better still be available at CD’s 16 bit/44.1 kHz resolution (or a lossless version) on whatever the new media are. If not, a lot of us would cause a big stink. Also, hopefully, we will be able to download at this resolution too. I have my doubts about downloading though, since most current downloads are 128-192 kbps compressed files, and that has momentum with the general public, who believe (or have been lead to believe) that 128-192 kbps is good enough.

So, to summarize, the convenience of the PC playing music at CD resolution is where I am and hope to be able to maintain, at the minimum, in the future.

AudioFilet

Probably just wishful thinking, but I would like to see a medium such as SACD or equivalent medium, but with the ability to write your own discs after downloading the music you wanted from the web. Then just play it on whatever system you have there at home in super-high fidelity. Probably be expensive at first, but eventually the prices would come down if it caught on.

obieone

I'm going to f*cking bed!
Goodnight y'all.

Yashu

And vinyl is another animal all together.

Very true. It is hard to beat it. It is the only open high resolution format in wide use today. I respect vinyl and I respect Troy for liking it more than 16/44.1. I was not trying to spawn a digital vs. analog debate. I was merely saying that when distilled, the PC is a digital source like any other. It can play 16bit or 24bit, even 32/192khz. As with any digital source, it is more than just the media, it is the associated equipment, clocking, DAC, etc. Until the industry adopts an open high resolution digital format, Troy has only SACD in that respect. Again, I am not putting down the sound, just Sony's anti-consumer/artist tactics.

I feel like the time will come when we will not need physical media for DIGITAL playback. Analog is, as you say, a whole different animal.

F1nut

Blah, blah, blah!

TroyD

I said this:

So, it really doesn't matter how good FLAC or .WAV is, if I can't play it back in a decent fashion, now does it?

And you counter with this:

So you are saying that the bits on your CDs are somehow better than the bits in my FLAC, and WAV output? They are the same bits, friend. Identical

You know, I can't continue this because you for some reason you lack basic reading comprehension. I didn't even ADDRESS the files themselves yet.

The fact is, right now, my sources, digital and analog are better than what I have heard in terms of playing back the files. Is that so f*cking difficult to comprehend??

Add to that, I already own enough vinyl and CD's to last me until I'm dead and gone. Why should I toss alll of those out and start over? That just doesn't make sense just because the new industry standard is going to be computer based. It doesn't really affect me.

Speak'n'Spell.

BDT

jakelm

Things should stay exactly how there are, for the rest of eternity.

And bring back Disco damnit!!!

Yashu

Troy, you will be dead long before I complete my journey in audio (just a hunch I get from your attitude towards life), when I die, if there is an afterlife, I will let you know how it went. Just don't argue with me there too, damnit.

Things are always going to change, no matter how much you do not want them to. Change takes the path of least resistance. That means the internet and open formats that are easy to shift around to any device and share with friends. Vinyl is different because of the nature of the medium. Every record is different, unique, it's not *just* data. Honestly, if the RIAA wanted to keep it's business model, they should have moved back to vinyl (it may be basically easy to get a record pressed, but nobody can do it at home en masse), but then they couldn't keep making albums for pennies and then selling them for 1500X the cost of manufacture.

TroyD

How would you know anything about my attitude to life?

Because I have a different slant on things, I have a flawed attitude?

BDT

Yashu

Anyone that behaves like you do... I am sorry, but after what you did to me here in the past and in PM... no healthy person goes "scorched earth" (to use your words) over piddly little things. You are a bully, it is seen by many here, and we all know what happens to bullies. I express an opinion, and you blow up like a child, and to add to that, you bring your little childhood friends here to gang up on your targets. When you threatened my life in PM, you also had several other people do it, and you even had people that were banned from this forum join in via e-mail.

You are a bully, otherwise you would be able to accept that everyone has their own opinions. You have yours, I have mine... why can't it be that simple? Threatening someone's life in PM and having others join in to do the same... it's pathetic. So, yes, flawed attitude. While some of your opinions have merit, how can I take you seriously after knowing your true colors. Unless I see some kind of drastic change in the way you approach a disagreement, that is how I see you, Troy. I am being honest. When I threaten your life and then get 5 of my friends to gang up on you to do the same, you can **** about me, but as long as I calmly express my opinions, no matter how weird or different they are, I am not doing anything wrong. I am contributing to the discourse here just as everyone else. If you don't like my ideas, then fine, but when it comes to being able to carry a sensible debate, it seems that you and your friends are the only ones with problems.

I am not going to threaten your life, or send profanity laden PMs to you, I am not going to get 5 of my friends to join in to harass you, I am just going to leave it be. So argue and insult away, it's your forum, right? You have the post count, the associations with the moderators, the friendships with Polk employees... go for it, but I am still going to express my opinions on topics here, so deal with it without causing a scene please, I am growing very tired of you.

TroyD

Oh, boy, here we go.

The facts are this. Never did I threaten you with anything. Never did I ever ask anyone to do or say anything to you. People arrive at the conclusion that you are a jackass all on thier own. They don't need me to interceed on your behalf.

Now, as far as bullying you. On SEVERAL occaisions, I asked you to ignore me and not respond. YOU chose to PM me. I told you to cease and desist which you also chose not to do. Yes, I was very profane for the express purpose for you to quit PM'ing me.

I have no issues with what you enjoy or what you believe. I've said repeatedly to knock yourself out. What I have taken issue with is that you believe your (factually challenged at that) opinions to be de facto the unassailable gospel and it just ain't so and when I see fit, I will throw the BS flag on you.

Cheerio, crackpot.

BDT

F1nut

Yashu wrote: »

Anyone that behaves like you do... I am sorry, but after what you did to me here in the past and in PM... no healthy person goes "scorched earth" (to use your words) over piddly little things. You are a bully, it is seen by many here, and we all know what happens to bullies. I express an opinion, and you blow up like a child, and to add to that, you bring your little childhood friends here to gang up on your targets. When you threatened my life in PM, you also had several other people do it, and you even had people that were banned from this forum join in via e-mail.

That's BS. I know for a fact that Troy would never threaten your life.

Are you implying that I sent you an email?



It's odd, but you come off just like silverti did.

sucks2beme

Lasareath wrote: »

Digital Implant, no need for an ipod or cd's, just get the digital implant and it'll be wired directly into your head

Just my luck, it would come with pop up ads!