Monster Cables Vs....

Road Runner

The other thing is that general knowledge of the properties of the cable could be used to try to predict how big a difference it would make in the sound and then they could compare that to the results of the listening tests and see how close they match. Then those results could be used as a guide to decide whether or not there really are all these differences in cable sound. For example, I'm pretty sure that they know that silver is a better conductor than copper, but the difference isn't big enough to be heard, so it would be interesting to see what listening tests would show in that situation.

Ferres

What matters is detail and neutrality, everything else is hype.

I used to set my speakers to small because the details were being lost. When I got the new cables I have now set them to large without the lose of detail I previously had.

heiney9

WilliamM2 wrote: »

Even if all the tests show the same results? I would say at that point, one has to be closed minded to not even consider that it may be expectation bias that has led to his own beliefs.

How many DBT's have you participated in? Or don't you trust your ears?

I don't need DBT's. I trust what I hear everyday. Do I need to participate in DBT's to tell me Coca Cola tastes better or Land O' Lakes butter tastes better. Or Yankee candles smell more authentic. Hell no.

My simple point is RoadRunner hasn't tried various cables in his rig and he's relying on others to tell him it's probably not necessary.

I'm not saying HE WILL notice a difference but he damn sure won't ever know unless he trys.

H9

heiney9

Road Runner wrote: »

The other thing is that general knowledge of the properties of the cable could be used to try to predict how big a difference it would make in the sound and then they could compare that to the results of the listening tests and see how close they match. Then those results could be used as a guide to decide whether or not there really are all these differences in cable sound. For example, I'm pretty sure that they know that silver is a better conductor than copper, but the difference isn't big enough to be heard, so it would be interesting to see what listening tests would show in that situation.

BS..........why would I want to use properties to try an predict(it's not a weather forecast)when I can just listen with my ears and know for sure.

I assure you in my rig there ARE differences I don't need to research properties, make pie charts, and graphs and slopes and use mathematical formulas so the result are on a piece of paper.

Simply listen, good enough for me and most others here on this forum.

heiney9

Road Runner wrote: »

For example, I'm pretty sure that they know that silver is a better conductor than copper, but the difference isn't big enough to be heard, so it would be interesting to see what listening tests would show in that situation.

The largest difference I have heard between any cables is the difference between copper and silver. Night and day, period.

You really should try it, it's fun and you might actually learn something practical in the "real" world, not just what's written on paper by other people.

H9

WilliamM2

I'm not saying HE WILL notice a difference but he damn sure won't ever know unless he trys.

But that was my point, you won't ever know if the difference you hear is real, or imagined, unless you try a DBT. Everyone is subject to expectational bias, whether they will admit it or not...

jakelm

heiney9 wrote: »

make pie charts, .

mmmmmmmm....I like PIE..charts...

Road Runner

heiney9 wrote: »

BS..........why would I want to use properties to try an predict(it's not a weather forecast)when I can just listen with my ears and know for sure.

It is like a weather forecast because you can know ahead of time if the cable will sound different based on its electrical properties. And it someone's performance in a blind test violates what we would expect based on the electrical properties of the cable, then that would suggest that we need a new way to measure the properties of the cable.

jakelm

The biggest problem with most people doing test with cable, is their system. Your system is only as good as its weakest link. So if your amp or pre or speakers are weak, then no matter how many different cables you try, it wont make a difference.

No sense in buying $300 pair of cables if your pre or amp has .10 cent connectors on it.

heiney9

WilliamM2 wrote: »

But that was my point, you won't ever know if the difference you hear is real, or imagined, unless you try a DBT. Everyone is subject to expectational bias, whether they will admit it or not...

Point is no one will ever know. Because in DBT's some will hear a difference some won't because of our hearing mechanism. Some people are attuned and some are not. Just like great Chefs or Wine tasters seem to be better at creating wonderful meals or picking out great wine. That doesn't mean everyone will agree with their choices. A DBT will never be conclusive because you will never get 100% agreement because of the subjective side of audio and the differences in perception amongst different people. The same biases you suggest still exist whether it's a DBT or not. The DBT doesn't neutralize a person's bias.

H9

Road Runner

heiney9 wrote: »

Point is no one will ever know. Because in DBT's some will hear a difference some won't because of our hearing mechanism. Some people are attuned and some are not. Just like great Chefs or Wine tasters seem to be better at creating wonderful meals or picking out great wine. That doesn't mean everyone will agree with their choices. A DBT will never be conclusive because you will never get 100% agreement because of the subjective side of audio and the differences in perception amongst different people.

But that could be taken care of by using a large sample of people in the test and testing their hearing before the test.

heiney9

Road Runner wrote: »

But that could be taken care of by using a large sample of people in the test and testing their hearing before the test.

You can't test for preferences, biases and subjectivity. How do you test for how the brain processes the sound it hears and then interprets it for the listener, you can't

Anyways this is a circular argument like ALL cable discussions. I am simply encouraging people truly interested in audio to try different cables for themselves and stop relying on other people's written reports to form and voice their opinion. If you haven't tried it, you have no opinion.

If you don't notice a difference when you are testing various cables consider yourself blessed. Ta Ta............I'm out of this one.

Road Runner

heiney9 wrote: »

You can't test for preferences, biases and subjectivity. How do you test for how the brain processes the sound it hears and then interprets it for the listener, you can't

There would be no need to test for preferences because the only question would be whether or not there is a difference at all, not whether one was preferable to the other. As for biases, that would be tested by making the study a double-blind study, and for subjectivity, that would be tested by measuring objective responses to subjective mental states. As far as measuring brain processes goes, that possibly could by done with fMRI, but not with speakers, probably only with headphones, and that might not show the differences.

WilliamM2

jakelm wrote: »

The biggest problem with most people doing test with cable, is their system. Your system is only as good as its weakest link. So if your amp or pre or speakers are weak, then no matter how many different cables you try, it wont make a difference.

No sense in buying $300 pair of cables if your pre or amp has .10 cent connectors on it.

That's a bunch of nonsense. But just for sake of argument, do you think this system is good enough?

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm

He too was sure he heard a difference in sighted testing, and then...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12250499#post12250499

WilliamM2

heiney9 wrote: »

Point is no one will ever know. Because in DBT's some will hear a difference some won't because of our hearing mechanism. Some people are attuned and some are not. Just like great Chefs or Wine tasters seem to be better at creating wonderful meals or picking out great wine. That doesn't mean everyone will agree with their choices. A DBT will never be conclusive because you will never get 100% agreement because of the subjective side of audio and the differences in perception amongst different people. The same biases you suggest still exist whether it's a DBT or not. The DBT doesn't neutralize a person's bias.

H9

A DBT can be performed with just one listener, and would verify that that individual could hear the difference. You don't need a large group of people to agree.

All that needs to be shown is that a difference is detected, not which one sounds better.

jakelm

WilliamM2 wrote: »

That's a bunch of nonsense. But just for sake of argument, do you think this system is good enough?

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm

He too was sure he heard a difference in sighted testing, and then...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12250499#post12250499

Will, are you telling me that no matter what your system is you will hear a difference in cables? I apologize, I dont understand your argument.

I agree with quality cables over cheap-o ones, but in my experience, it can only be heard with higher end systems. Does have to be $50k systems, but not cheap HTIB.

Cant hear the difference on my son's mini iPod system, but I can hear it on mine. Thats my point.

It would be hard pressed to hear the true quality of good cables through RadioShack speakers.

DarqueKnight

Road Runner wrote: »

Some cables go for something like, I don't know, maybe $500 a foot in the really extreme cases. So some people might be spending 2000 times too much on something.

Some diamond tennis bracelets go for something like, I don't know, maybe $3000 for one with diamonds of average cut and clarity. For an 8 inch bracelet, this equates to a cost of about $4470 per foot.

Some diamond rings go for something like, I don't know, maybe $7000 for one with diamonds of above average cut and clarity. For a man's ring with a 2.75 inch interior circumference, this equates to a cost of about $30,545.45 per foot.

Some people might be spending way too much on polished rocks.;)

WilliamM2

Will, are you telling me that no matter what your system is you will hear a difference in cables? I apologize, I dont understand your argument.

Not what I was saying at all, did you take a look at the system I linked to? I was disagreeing with this:

The biggest problem with most people doing test with cable, is their system.

No one has demonstrated the ability on any system yet. So obviously the biggest problem is not the system.

DarqueKnight

Road Runner wrote: »

But that could be taken care of by using a large sample of people in the test and testing their hearing before the test.

How's the weather in Tampa?

Road Runner

DarqueKnight wrote: »

Some diamond tennis bracelets go for something like, I don't know, maybe $3000 for one with diamonds of average cut and clarity. For an 8 inch bracelet, this equates to a cost of about $4470 per foot.

Some diamond rings go for something like, I don't know, maybe $7000 for one with diamonds of above average cut and clarity. For a man's ring with a 2.75 inch interior circumference, this equates to a cost of about $30,545.45 per foot.

Some people might be spending way too much on polished rocks.;)

Yep, they're clearly spending too much money. But if they can't get it for cheaper, and that's what they want, maybe from their point of view they're not spending too much money. The real tragedy with cables is that people claim to be spending more for the purpose of getting better sound, in which case expensive cables may be the worst investment there is. Unless of course they want to use them to show off how rich they are.

Road Runner

DarqueKnight wrote: »

How's the weather in Tampa?

Who said anything about Tampa?

DarqueKnight

I did.

Road Runner

DarqueKnight wrote: »

I did.

That's for sure. If you're talking about some old fogie retiree factor making the average hearing curve worse, I don't know anything about Tampa because I don't live there, but the area where I'm living does have a lot of retired people and it would interesting to see how many of them are golden-eared audiophiles who can claim to hear all kinds of differences that are outside of their hearing range. Like maybe a difference between CD and vinyl because CD chops off the higher frequencies. Even though CD supposedly already has 2,000 Hz of extra frequenices that no human can hear, let alone someone who probably needs a hearing aid.

DarqueKnight

Ok. Thanks for the clarifications.

obieone

I'd LOVE to hear what Tesla's thought on this subject would be:D
Too bad we can't bring him back:(

Yashu

DB Tests are just as subjective as any other test. You forget that humans are the ones taking the tests. Their entire lives that ehy have lived have an effect on the results. If they are not trained to hear certain things, they won't hear them, whereas someone trained can hear some things through coathangers, or anything practically. It's ALL subjective. DBT is not any more special than any other test involving humans, as in, just as flawed, just as reliant on a subjective bias and life lived. Give me 10 humans that have been trained exactly the same, have the exact same brains, impulses, tastes, everything, basically 10 cloned humans, all alike in every way, and maybe DBTs would hold merit, until then, they are just as subjective as any other. You can't rely on flawed instruments (humans) and then come back with concrete results. It just isn't possible. All you have done is find out what 10 completely different people in every way, genetically, environmentally, bias, education level, tastes, ear/brain response, level of musical training and to what trained, prefer... that doesn't sound like an objective test to me!

Only measurements with proper equipment are objective, but the interpretations of the results... are... subjective! Instruments can be used as a control, but what about the people that read the results? Again, flawed humans with every problem I have stated.

So, the only thing to trust is your own ears, and to be a man and not be afraid to admit you like one thing better than the other regardless of what it is or how much it costs.

I think cables make a difference. I am not going to tell someone they will hear what I hear, but it's my money, my system, and my happiness that hangs in the balance, not yours, so if I like 'em, that is what matters. Audio is always going to be a subjective thing because it speaks to our most inner emotions. Sound is one of our primal senses. The auditory nerve actually connects to a part of the brain that is directly linked to emotion. Unlike the visual sense, it is information given to us in a linear fashion, and from person to person, it is always subjective as everyone is emotionally different. Even identical twins... grow up to be two completely different personalities. How can there be an objective DBT with us humans?

jakelm

obieone wrote: »

I'd LOVE to hear what Tesla's thought on this subject would be:D
Too bad we can't bring him back:(

I think we should have ended this thread on this ^^^^^ note.:p

reeltrouble1

What a loser.

RT1--Old Fogie.

wizzy

Road Runner wrote: »

Like maybe a difference between CD and vinyl because CD chops off the higher frequencies. Even though CD supposedly already has 2,000 Hz of extra frequenices that no human can hear, let alone someone who probably needs a hearing aid.

I thought it was shown that frequencies way beyond 20Khz when played in conjunction (as in a integral part of the music - not randomly) could be detected by humans as changes in the sound of the reproduced music, even though the high frequencies played by themselves they could not be picked out ...

Anyone else able to confirm this?

reeltrouble1

nope, I am just Old Fogie.:rolleyes:

This is just the same ole thing that has been hashed out more than Hogan's Goat.

RT1