Best reciever

polkseller

Mantis I agree with you exept with what you said about Yamaha receiver

HAve you listened to the yamaha recently ? my 5960 is far from being bright and I love it.

I'm using Anti-cable from paul speltz with is and I think the highs are missing a little on this amp.

ben62670

magellings wrote: »

What does "bright" mean?

The treble irritates your ears after a while. Listening fatigue.

magellings

Willow wrote: »

If I had to do it all over again it would be seperates.That's not to say I won't in the future. I am alos surprised you didn't try HK.

I really like the HK/Polk combo. I am using my HK as a pre

I have no where to try out a Harmon Kardon w/ my polk setup. I noticed 7.2 channels on the 745 though. Is that the ability to support two subs? Can a 7.1 reciever support two subs? Just curious

magellings

jdhdiggs wrote: »

Well, seeing as if you are fairly patient and frugal, you can get the 805 for $600 shipped to your door, I would guess that, plus an amp would be the best bet.

BTW: Since the 805 sound good driving the LSi's by itself, I'd agree with Mantis that it might be a bit too forward and bright on the RTi's.

Where can you get it shipped for $600 to your door?

"forward and bright". I believe by forward you mean sound seems to come "from" the speakers when listening two channels...is this related to soundstage? If so note I noticed this when comparing recievers as I responded earlier. Good facts for others who view this thread in the future.

Face

7.1 can support more than 1 sub with a Y connection. I'm not familiar with 7.2, but that may be stereo subs, which is even better.

ben62670

magellings wrote: »

I have no where to try out a Harmon Kardon w/ my polk setup. I noticed 7.2 channels on the 745 though. Is that the ability to support two subs? Can a 7.1 reciever support two subs? Just curious

yes, and yes.
I know it sucks buying blind, but I know the HK's are very nice, and smooth. You can look on ebay for Harmon direct to get a good deal on an HK right from the factory. Don't jump on the first "deal" you see. Be patient if thats the route you choose to go;)

magellings

ben62670 wrote: »

The treble irritates your ears after a while. Listening fatigue.

Okay, to better describe my trial w/ the Pioneer 94, I developed listening fatique. Not necessarily on the bright side, more on the mid/bass side. i guess everyone hears differently, even on the higher end avrs

ben62670

magellings wrote: »

Okay, to better describe my trial w/ the Pioneer 94, I developed listening fatique. Not necessarily on the bright side, more on the mid/bass side. i guess everyone hears differently, even on the higher end avrs

You just described my cheap Sony CD player on analog outs:D

chadjessie@hotm

Confused yet Magellings? You probably don't need to get to concerned with whether it is going to sound too bright. Since you are going to audition the avr's you mentioned again, just pay attention to what sounds good to you. I have the Harmon Kardon 645, which I used with an all rti setup and it sounded pretty good. But, in general the rti series are somewhat bright sounding. Even with my HK the tweeter brightness got to be to much for me over time. It's great you can go try those out again. Whatever sounds the best to you!

Fongolio

Were all the receivers properly calibrated? I've owned three Pioneers and have never experienced listening fatigue. I'm pretty sure all the receivers you are considering have equalizer adjustments, bass management, time delay and channel adjust for room variations. If these are not dialed in correctly any receiver can sound like crap. Especially with multi channel. When they are set proper it can be sonic nirvana.

magellings

Fongolio wrote: »

Were all the receivers properly calibrated? I've owned three Pioneers and have never experienced listening fatigue. I'm pretty sure all the receivers you are considering have equalizer adjustments, bass management, time delay and channel adjust for room variations. If these are not dialed in correctly any receiver can sound like crap. Especially with multi channel. When they are set proper it can be sonic nirvana.

Unfortunately I can only assume so. You should be able to pass the pure signal thru the pioneer without any interference...then it wouldn't need calibration correct? When listening to the recievers it was just two-channel, but I'll look in the manual of the reciever to ensure it was pure direct and retry it out.

jdhdiggs

magellings wrote: »

Where can you get it shipped for $600 to your door?

"forward and bright". I believe by forward you mean sound seems to come "from" the speakers when listening two channels...is this related to soundstage? If so note I noticed this when comparing recievers as I responded earlier. Good facts for others who view this thread in the future.

You need to just keep tabs on slickdeals.net. I got mine for $602.48 to my door. You should be able to get it $650-$700 without much issue.

By forward or bright, I mean that highs are emphasized and brought "forward" in the presentation. To me, the LSi series is laid back (the exact opposite) so adding a "forward" sounding amp to "laid back" speakers brings them back to neutral.

To me, the RTi series is the exact opposite, they are a bit forward and bright so adding an amp that has the same charactoristics sounds poor (to me). For the RTi series, I would reccommend HK as they seem to be laid back.

In summary and IMHO (YMMV):
Onkyo + LSi's = Good
HK + LSi's = Bad (veiled, restricted sound)
Onkyo + RTi's = Bad (Shrill, in your face)
HK + RTi's = Good

Clear as mud yet? Remember, these are my opinions based on my experiences getting gear to sound how "I" think it should sound. Some may love the Onk and RTi's or HK and LSi's. I don't.

magellings

jdhdiggs wrote: »

You need to just keep tabs on slickdeals.net. I got mine for $602.48 to my door. You should be able to get it $650-$700 without much issue.

By forward or bright, I mean that highs are emphasized and brought "forward" in the presentation. To me, the LSi series is laid back (the exact opposite) so adding a "forward" sounding amp to "laid back" speakers brings them back to neutral.

To me, the RTi series is the exact opposite, they are a bit forward and bright so adding an amp that has the same charactoristics sounds poor (to me). For the RTi series, I would reccommend HK as they seem to be laid back.

In summary and IMHO (YMMV):
Onkyo + LSi's = Good
HK + LSi's = Bad (veiled, restricted sound)
Onkyo + RTi's = Bad (Shrill, in your face)
HK + RTi's = Good

Clear as mud yet? Remember, these are my opinions based on my experiences getting gear to sound how "I" think it should sound. Some may love the Onk and RTi's or HK and LSi's. I don't.

What about Denon + RTi's?

And what's everyone's opinion about using one of these recievers as a pre, and then adding a 2-channel amp into the mix "just" for two-channel listening. Can more watts into the RTi 10s make them sound that much better? For example, adding the Onkyo M-282 into the mix. Can I route just two-channels in a 7.1 setup to an amp, and then to the fronts?

Rike255

In summary and IMHO (YMMV):
Onkyo + LSi's = Good
HK + LSi's = Bad (veiled, restricted sound)
Onkyo + RTi's = Bad (Shrill, in your face)
HK + RTi's = Good

Clear as mud yet? Remember, these are my opinions based on my experiences getting gear to sound how "I" think it should sound. Some may love the Onk and RTi's or HK and LSi's. I don't.

This is his opinion which is valid but there are a lot of people on this forum and other places who have the RTi's and Onkyo's. I'm one of them the RTi8's along with Onkyo 805 are simply amazing.

ryanjoachim

Bi-amping my RTi10's got me an amazing amount of sound compared to not bi-amping them. It all depends on the receiver and how you hook everything up.

chadjessie@hotm

magellings wrote: »

What about Denon + RTi's?

And what's everyone's opinion about using one of these recievers as a pre, and then adding a 2-channel amp into the mix "just" for two-channel listening. Can more watts into the RTi 10s make them sound that much better? For example, adding the Onkyo M-282 into the mix. Can I route just two-channels in a 7.1 setup to an amp, and then to the fronts?

Yup you can do this. The extra wattage will definitely help the 10's sound more full and powerful. You just run interconnects from your pre (whatever that might end up being:)) for the fronts to the two channels on the amp. Then let your avr power everything else. The Onkyo M-282 might not be the best bet. Maybe someone who owns this amp can chime in on it. There are definitely better 2 channel amps out there for probably about the same money.

magellings

chadjessie@hotm wrote: »

Yup you can do this. The extra wattage will definitely help the 10's sound more full and powerful. You just run interconnects from your pre (whatever that might end up being:)) for the fronts to the two channels on the amp. Then let your avr power everything else. The Onkyo M-282 might not be the best bet. Maybe someone who owns this amp can chime in on it. There are definitely better 2 channel amps out there for probably about the same money.

I noticed the Onkyo M-282 only outputs 105 watts/channel. Now that I think about it, wouldn't this actually be downgrading since all the recievers I listed intially output 130 or more watts/channel?

Or are we talking the Onkyo amp would add on an additional 105 watts/channel? Is that how it works...130+105=235watts/channel?

chadjessie@hotm

Nope. Doesn't work like that. When you are using a seperate amp through your preouts no power from the receiver will go to those speakers. If you are going to go with just a two channel amp take a look on ebay under adcom, parasound etc. Grab a 2 channel with 200 watts per channel and you will be set.

magellings

I spoke to the owner of an audio/video store here and he said that w/ the rti10s that all bridging or a seperate amp will provide is more power so that you can listen to your speakers louder. Bi-wiring he said gets a bit tricky as you tend to need to mess around with settings on the avr when trying to enjoy different flavors of music. He said it was easier years ago when you had equalizers w/ sliders to simply adjust, but now with the newer recievers it is harder as you need to dig deeper into the recievers settings to adjust when bi-wiring. This of course is figuring you are serious about 2-channel listening.

He also highly recommends denon. He sells both denon and sony es products and said denon would beat sony es anyday. He mentioned 93% of radio broadcast stations run denon equipment for reliability due to the quality construction and parts that make up their equipment.

He also mentioned that Denon is very good at not distorting. You can turn a Denon volume up nearly full blast and not hear it distort the signal. This he said is because whereas most reciever manufacturers measure distortion for only short quick intervals, denon holds the measurement for a full second during testing. (It would be much more technical if he explained it).

All in all I was leaning towards the Onkyo but am now I think leaning more towards the denons again.

He discounted the denon prices to $1250 for the 3808ci and $2050 for the 4308ci, and said would be able to extend the warranty by 6-12 months.

Opinions?

chadjessie@hotm

Yup Denon's are very nice. To me that's getting to the point where that's an awful lot of money for an avr, and where dedicated seperates come into play. Would you still be considering a seperate amp for your fronts?

ben62670

I think he gets more commission from Denon. A separate amp does make a system go louder, but the main advantage is the SQ (sound quality). EQ? Most of us don't even like to use tone controls! Denon makes good stuff, but nearly all of what he said is BS.

magellings

ben62670 wrote: »

I think he gets more commission from Denon. A separate amp does make a system go louder, but the main advantage is the SQ (sound quality). EQ? Most of us don't even like to use tone controls! Denon makes good stuff, but nearly all of what he said is BS.

You make a good point, could possibly be true that he gets a good commission. But remember he is discounting the denon recievers as well. My brother had just purchased the denon flagship avr and he cut it down from $5200 to $4000, so he isn't out just to make money. He seemed pretty honest.

I'm considering a seperate amp but probably in the far off future. If I went w/ the 4308ci I'd probably experiment w/ bi-wiring and bi-amping my L/R fronts to see if I notice any sound improvement. The onkyo tx-sr875 would allow bridging the fronts as well to double watt output to 280 watts/channel. I think I'm down to just experimenting with all this bi-amp/wiring stuff though because doesn't seem like there are many opinions in the forum regarding it. From what I gathered from my responses, some say to do it if you want to feel sophisticated, others say they notice a difference. I am highly curious about the bridging though as my rti10s will support up to 300 watts. The onkyo is only reciever in this price range that I've seen will do this. The denon 4308ci has the benefit of being able to simultaneously achieve a 7.1 setup and also listen to two-channel audio w/ a bi-wire or bi-amp setup.

I know a lot recommend seperates, but also note most of these higher end avrs include video processing. According to the yamaha 3800 review, it will just pass thru a 1080i signal, whereas the denon will upconvert to progressive, in which was said to be clearer than the hdtv natively converting. It's my understandance that you can't get video processing in an amp alone or any preamp in a lower price range than these avrs...

Sound also note saw this in the yamaha 3800 review on ultimateavmag.com:
The two-channel mix had excellent separation and the Yamaha made it extremely difficult to localize where my speakers were in the room; it was more like my entire front wall was alive with sound.

I have to say when trying out these avrs, I did indeed notice that the onkyo 805 I could more noticably know what speakers (in the room of many) the sound was protruding from during two channel listening. With the denon and yamaha the comment pulled from the review (above) was closer to my experience. Is it considered a better thing what the Onkyo did or the denon/yamaha. I'm betting not the onkyo? Comments on all this?

magellings

magellings wrote: »

Sound also note saw this in the yamaha 3800 review on ultimateavmag.com:
The two-channel mix had excellent separation and the Yamaha made it extremely difficult to localize where my speakers were in the room; it was more like my entire front wall was alive with sound.

I have to say when trying out these avrs, I did indeed notice that the onkyo 805 I could more noticably know what speakers (in the room of many) the sound was protruding from during two channel listening. With the denon and yamaha the comment pulled from the review (above) was closer to my experience. Is it considered a better thing what the Onkyo did or the denon/yamaha. I'm betting not the onkyo? Comments on all this?

I should also note during this yamaha 3800 review that the main "comparison" reciever the reviewer used was his denon. A lot of talk about how the 3800 was living up to his denon...looks like he enjoys his denon.

DeusExa

How the hell did this thread get so large???:cool:

chadjessie@hotm

DeusExa wrote: »

How the hell did this thread get so large???:cool:

:):):)

polkseller

Take that denon 3808 and forget about it!! I think it will match your style very well.

Very good receiver , very neutral, detailed/resonant highs like no other because they remain easy on the ears. bit Laid back sound.

Beat the pioneer Elite on the microdynamics, ease of listening (neutral sound), HUGE soundstage. 4 ohms stable but low damping factor.

Make sure its made in JAPAN

If you have any other question, ask me
I sell them all at my store, forget about the comission idea. DENON is a very reputable company.

And the 3808 makes a damn good PRe-amp later if you want to add poweramps!

DeusExa

Well, the Onkyo 805 is $700 lowest....you will have to decide for yourself if SLIGHTLY better sound quality/runs cooler will be worth $300...

And some reviewers even think the 805 is cleaner/sounds more powerful/clearer...

To me, the 805 represented the best value.

Fongolio

Go with the one that has the features you need and the sound you like.

polkseller

this onkyo seems to be a beast... my the local dealer is D-...

So I cannot listen to it, imagine last time I when to this dealer, it was selling it over the retail price !! 1500$ canadian dollars! Supposed to be 1299$ can. I was hoping around 1000$ in special but he didnt want to lower the price under 1250$, 50$ less than regular price. I'm not stupid jerk like them. They ripp off many customer because they dont have a return policy, often, all sale are final.

magellings

Hi all,

I bought the Denon 3808ci after listening to these recievers again.

My findings:

My setup is:

fronts rti10
center csi5
surround fxi5

Listening Criteria:
Two-channel pure direct listening:
a) Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers - Runnin' Down a Dream
b) PACHELBEL - Canon (classical)
Dolby Digital surround
c) U2 Vertigo 05 live from chicago - scene Cry / Electric Co.
d) Saving Private Ryan - scene The Alamo & the one directly following

All listening was conducted at a reputable retail store (americantv in WI) in which all recievers were hooked up to a switcher and could switch back and forth between recievers to listen to sound w/ setup listed above.

Denon 3808ci -
Overall good soundstage, good sound, clear, vibrant. Plus 1080p upconversion of all signals, whereas Yamaha/Onkyo pass thru majority of hd signals below 1080p. also believe audysee optimization can be set flat which I believe disables audysee implicit settings, whereas cannot w/ yamaha cannot do this, not sure of onkyo
a) Good sound, instruments very clear and distinct.
b) Noticed Denon was the brightest sounding of all recievers, to the point of a bit on the listening fatique side, albeit the tom petty track more than made up for this. I've been told violen highs should be bright like this though. Also note very good soundstage on this track and good distinction between low, mid, and highs
c & d) both very good, soundstage tended to direct more to the center than the l/r fronts. Good sound, felt like was in the action, not disappointed with either

Denon 4308ci - this reciever would have been my second pick. same as findings for 3808, but a bit brighter highs at times than 3808 on classical b) above. Sounded a bit louder at same volume level due to obvious fact that is 10watts more per channel at 140watts. To me not worth the extra $750 I would have had to pay to get this reciever. This reciever does support bi-wiring/bi-amping while retaining 7.1 setup, albeit to my ears 3808ci was more relaxed and comfortable to listen to. At times when switching back and forth between two denons, didn't notice any difference, and didn't think bi-ing anything would improve sound enough to justify purchase of this reciever

Yamaha 3800 - this reciever would have been my third pick. This reciever tamed down the brightness of the classical b) above, but it was also a more laid back sound and mids/lows weren't quite as distinct as denon sound. on c)/d) movie watching soundstage tended to move out to the l/r fronts and not as much sound protruded from center. Good clear distinction of mids/lows/highs, and did not experience listening fatique of brightness as did a bit during denon listening. I did not like the fact I read in a review that the yamaha does not superimpose volume level onto the tv screen during adjustment. This was a con to me.

Onkyo 805 - the onkyo soundstage protruded to the center channel very similar to the denons during movie watching. Onkyo instrument sounds were not quite as distinct and seperate in criteria b) above as w/ denon/yamahas. did not experience listening fatique w/ highs. sound during a)/b) criteria above seemed to protrude more directly from l/r fronts, whereas w/ denon yamaha sound seemed to come more from whole front wall during a)/b) criteria. I did not know if volume was superimposed on tv screen w/ this reciever, only know it is w/ the denons as my brother has one at the time I purchased the 3808

Pioneer Elite
I eliminated this avr during my first trial of these recievers. Listed in this response are the details of my second trial experience of these recievers. The lows/mids on this reciever presenting sounded a bit overwhelming and distorted to me which would have generated listening fatique for me over short time.

Overall I think anyone would be happy w/ either of these recievers in their own home. The fact I got to listen to them all w/ the same speakers I own was a huge plus. And I was able to determine which one I liked best taking all the criteria above into consideration, as well as features these recievers offered. My suggestion to anyone looking to purchase a reciever would be to go to a store with a good reputation for audio/video equipment that has the recievers you want to test setup on a switching board. Make sure this seller has the same setup/speakers as you have because from opinions I gathered thru my postings on this forum everyone hears sounds differently, and my findings above will not necessarily be the same for someone else. Also remember my findings above are with the specific speakers/recievers combination I listened to, and with different speakers recievers will not sound the same, again based on opinions/facts I gathered from posts I submitted in the forum. Good luck to anyone looking for a new reciever and hope my summary helps you. Also thanks to everyone for their input, I think this forum is great for getting answers to audio questions. Thanks again everyone.